BCM Community

Continued from:
https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=33639.new#new
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So, we were discussing propane tanks, washer dryer, refrigerators, and other components used in the conversion in general but more to the point as it applies to my newly purchased but yet to be delivered 1996 DL3. I just exchanged texts with the seller and he feels they might be able to deliver within the next few days.

I take the point about a household refer, and have given it much thought over the years. However I very much like having more options, and I like being able to run it even if all electrical power is down, though I'm not entirely sure that is the case with the newer units. I'll have to look. As for running on an inverter, it sort of reminds me of using a 3-way in the past. It would run down the 12v batteries a lot faster than you might expect. Propane lasted much longer. Sort of a similar viewpoint as the propane genset. A full tank of propane is going to last me a long time provided I don't have to run the furnace all day every day, and if I do, what am I doing there anyway? I figure propane will always last longer than batteries, and will always be quieter than the generator. So it gets the nod as the number one camping power source, supplemented and superceded by the shore line where possible, with battery and inverter power being the source of last resort. That's what I'm shooting for here, and since it's my bus I get to do it however I want, though naturally I'm open to suggestions and recommendations. I've even got it worked out to where I don't have any interference from the wife. How long that will last I can't say but I'll enjoy it while I can. So anyway, A 2-way is good enough I think. When I had the 3-way I avoided using 12v like the plague. I also sort of feel like being level is a good thing and hope to use the bus pneumatics for that.

Thanks for the tip about a propane tank from a truck. Any specific ideas about where to look?

And here is a shot of the transfer switch and breaker box that came with the generator.

Jim

Google heavy duty truck salvage yards.

Here's an example tank, but some searching will likely score a bargain.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/05-Fleetwood-Revolution-LE-RV-USED-Manchester-Propane-Fuel-Tank-38-7-Gallons/173464009286?hash=item286342ba46:g:gRMAAOSwLztbbnGc&redirect=mobile

I've seen vehicle propane tanks in local scrap yards and they didn't appear to have any damage.All of the Schwans trucks around here run on propane.

Yeah, thanks. Let's see if we can't divert the tank discussion over here.
Those guys selling on ebay have got a greatly exaggerated sense of the value of used tanks. Unless I'm badly mistaken, I believe I can buy a brand new Manchester 100 gallon (80%) tank for right at $1000. They are asking new prices and higher. I'm looking to pay about half that.

I respect and appreciate the arguments for portable tanks. BTDT. Didn't like hauling them to the Southern States over and over again. Don't like the 12 year limit. Get a bigger tank to start with and either drive to the source or have them bring a truck. I have stationary 200 pound tanks that they will happily refill, and I think that's around 30 gallons if it's empty, which they don't like too well. But anyway even if I'm wrong about the numbers the point is still valid, they will deliver. One time I even had a camper set up with a rented 100lb tank (that's pounds, not gallons. Big difference there.) and they brought the truck by to exchange it any time I called. But no, it isn't as convenient as the gas station. I never expected it would be. I want the larger capacity too, somewhere between 60 and 100 gallons at 80%.

Jim

Regarding the refrigerator...

Both of my buses have had electric only refrigerators. Our 4106 had an older 12v/120v Norcold that worked pretty well but had troubles keeping up in really hot weather. The old Norcold 'Swing motors' were not the picture of efficiency however, as they were 23v AC compressors. When they ran off 12v there was a built-in inverter to convert to 23v AC, and when they ran off AC they had to use transformers to convert AC to AC.

Our current bus has a Vitrifrigo 12v/120v refrigerator. It is a very modern unit which uses a 12vdc compressor. It keeps the inside cold and can make ice easily in the freezer. The unit runs at about 5.5 amps when running, but obviously the average will be much less as it doesn't run all the time. The Vitrifrigo can operate on 120vac with its built-in inverter, but we don't have it connected. When we're on shore or generator our converter/charger is always running, and it easily has enough spare capacity to keep the fridge going.

There are much less expensive 12vdc compressor refrigerators out there, but we didn't want to alter the cabinetry. This left us with only one possible fridge - the Vitrifrigo. If the cabinetry wasn't a problem, then we probably would have gone with a larger and less expensive 12vdc fridge. Most of the RV refrigerator companies make electric-only units which use compressors and not the propane heater setup.

The 3-way fridges, from what I've seen, have two problems. First, there is the danger issue. I don't care how much they say that they've fixed the safety problems, it seems that every few years a new one develops and we have a spate of RV fires. The other issue is that when they are used on 12vdc the power consumption can be high. And then of course the question of how well they actually cool the food.

The propane units do require 12vdc to operate, at least the ones I've seen. Not sure if they will work in a total no-power situation.

If you've got the room and battery bank to do so, the residential unit on inverter might be a good idea. From my math it will burn up a bit more current than a fridge using a 12vdc compressor though so you'll have to do the math. Remember that 1 amp @ 120vac requires 10 amps @ 12vdc to make through an inverter.

Check the Amish built propane fridges like Miller they are as good as any 115 v or 12v fridge made

Last summer I threw a 20 year old Sunfrost in the dumpster.  Replacement would have run $4k.  Supposedly the best 12v refer you can buy.  This one had an unrepairable freon leak in the 4-5" insulated side wall.

Customer bought an apartment refrigerator and pure sine wave Magnatex inverter for less than half that.

the same washer and dryer inside the Featherlite

dave

Nice to know a that standard width washer and dryer can be made to fit. I just measured ours here at the house and it looks like about 1-1/2" to spare widthwise but they'd have to have front controls like yours and be an inch shorter and then like you said, it'd be a squeeze. Here's hoping you don't have to do any repairs.

I've got a photo of the inside of the transfer switch. Doesn't look very complicated. Because it was a residential backup the gen is configured to start when mains power goes down and the transfer switch connects once gen power is up. Presumably it shuts down the same way. But there may be a switch for manual control. Looks like they function independently of each other.

Jim

At the " biggest RV show in the country" last September, in Pa. Most of the RV's that had washer-driers, used compact stacked Whirlpool units. Before, they used some non common units and the Splendide units.
I think this is a new item from Whirlpool or I just didn't notice in past couple of years.

I was just looking at the combination washer/dryers and it looks like a great idea but maybe they've been rushed to market. Probably makes sense to give them a few more years, and than maybe the prices will come down and they will start showing up on Craigslist. I think I'll see if I can get the dimensions and reserve space, then leave that as one of the very last items to be added. I'm on a 5 year plan here so that will make a difference.

I measured that stainless tank today and roughly what I have is a large tank of 275 gal. capacity and a small one of 40 gal on the back in the center. The large tank can be divided into two tanks by adding a horizontal or vertical wall and a top.  The entire assembly can fit into the bay rotated either of two ways as it is 55" x 56" including the small tank. Some trimming and welding is necessary regardless but as currently configured the main tank has a slanted and tapered bottom leading to, I think a 2-1/2" NPT outlet which discharges under the rear tank, so that would work very well as the black water tank. I was thinking that the sensible thing might be to weld in a horizontal wall and use the section above that as the gray water tank, then cut off the rear tank and weld panels onto the front to make a fresh water tank. That way  there will be no weld seams between the fresh and waste tanks but they can use a common wall. If I make the front tank full width, 33" tall and 26" deep it will hold about 200 gal. I could also run a stand pipe through the grey tank to connect to the toilet directly. The discharge side (rear of the tank) would be on the driver's side as installed.

So I'm thinking maybe a good thing would be a valve connecting the gray tank to the black tank (in addition to a 1/2" NPT gray water drain and a standard size discharge) so that the gray water can be flushed through the black water tank. Anybody see a problem with this? I suppose a backflush might work just as well but requires the same number of valves.

That would take up 66" of the 97" or so available across the bay. If there is a dropped section in the center of the bay that can be subtracted and the fresh tank made deeper to keep the same volume. Either way I think it's workable from what I know now and the bus will be here before I order materials of cut metal. Some dimensions will change.

Anyway, the remaining 31" of bay depth would be divided between space for the dump valves and plumbing on one side (also the side with the toilet) and probably about 20" on the other which could be used for batteries and power distribution.

Jim

Not sure if there's a need for a separate gray and black tank, especially if you are putting in a large tank. Our first bus and our current used a combined waste tank. Current one is 90 gallons and two of us can go nearly a week if we are careful. Having a combined tank makes dumping easy with little chance of solids building up on the bottom.

Since you may at done point in the future have to pull the tanks for service / repair you might want to think about downsizing the larger tank or making two tanks out it.

Having waste and fresh tanks share a common wall would never pass the powers that be in my house. If there is ever a problem with a pinhole, you're going to be in a world of trouble. Might want to rethink that. Nothing is ever leak free forever, no matter how much you think it is.

Both the single and the 2 tanks have their advantages and disadvantages the 2 tanks are preferred by the off grid and boondockers most places will let you dump gray water on the ground the BLM here in Az will I know.If it wasn't for the RVers gray water Quartzsite bushes would die  ::),I have always had 2 tanks I dump the black first and then grey     

Yeah, I had my doubts about a common wall too, even if it is unblemished 12 ga stainless. And, I doubt there realistically is any reason to have even a 100 gallon grey water tank since you can almost always run it out with a green garden hose. If that's true of the grey water, surely the black water tank can be even smaller. So if the big stainless tank becomes the fresh water tank, leaving room behind it for say up to 100 gallons each of grey and black, then it's just a matter of finding or making tanks of the right configuration.

Now, having just looked again at the bay opening dimensions, 33" x 54" doesn't allow this tank to slide in facing out. It will have to  face front or rear, with the small tank sliced off. The discharge port can be blocked off and a smaller more convenient fitting welded in. That leaves approx. 17-1/2" of side space inside the bay. If two equal sized tanks were fitted into that space, taking up all the room, they would be 67 gallons each. If those two tanks went all the way across the bay they would be 117.5 gallons each. Or about 115 with dump valves, say a cable or linkage operated dump valve between the two tanks and a main dump valve in a recess on the end of the black tank. Wouldn't be cheap to make, but could be just as cheap as buying them.  Also, these tanks could be made of poly, provided they were bonded well enough to guarantee against leakage. For practical purposes, say each of these two tanks were 32 x 17 x 47, or allowing for the hinges, 42" for a 99 gallon capacity. Allowances would have to be made for sliding the tanks into place and for accessing the center valve. Might be smart to have an off-side dump on the grey tank just in case, as well as the all important fitting for the hose, and clearance for the linkage, all of which will decrease capacity somewhat. So if the water tank was slid to one side, the smaller tanks would have to slide past it 3" before clearing the entry. With 1/2" fore/aft clearance that would probably work. If not. the off side corner could be beveled some. Other refinements could be added.

Also that would leave about 39" x 40" open space in the bay, in addition to about a 5" space at the end of each waste tank. The water tank could be centered, probably a good idea, leaving a 19 x 40" bay on each side. IF there isn't anything sticking down in the middle. If there is, the capacity of each tank would have to be reduced accordingly. Can't see that as being a real problem. What do you guys think? Also, who's come up with a really slick way of routing their slinky out of the bay?

Jim

Jim - you should start a Project thread, that way you can link to your individual threads all under one topic, then whatever contributions are made as you progress through your project, progress can also easily be searched for and used in the future more easily.

Just a suggestion.


SD

Note to self: Water heater goes under sink/shower taps to minimize water waste.

SD, I'll try to look into that Project thread idea. I don't know how to set that up.

Currently browsing back issues for ideas. Apparently the 250 gal of fresh water isn't so far out of line, nor is 100 gal of black. Who knew? Guess you can't have too much water, or a deep enough outhouse.

Jim

250 gallons for the fresh water tank would be at the higher end of things though. Not unheard of, but definitely towards the upper end.

I'm sure you already thought of it, but that's going to be over 2,000 pounds between the weight of the tank and the water. May take some doing to keep the weight balanced and under the max, depending on what else you're installing and where it's going.

Jim - I'm sure others have chimed in on the 250 gal tank weight, I have 170 gal but 70 of it is under the bed, the other 100 is in the last bay. I split it up because I have seen too many conversions that sag in the plumbing bay. You will hear stories of Old School mechanics transporting engines in the bays. That may be true, but that is a temporary situation. If you load up any one area to the point it displaces, you have almost certainly caused structural members to yield. There is an old thread on here that you could search for that outlines weight distribution using estimates of load per sqft in the living space and provides estimated guesses on max weight for each bay. I don't remember what model MCI it was for, 102C maybe.... either way, it would be a good reference.
Planning for a 1 off conversion was the most difficult part for me, take your time, I can tell you almost everything I did not plan 3 steps ahead for I ended up redoing and paying double.

Cheers!
SD

Good call on the weight. Shouldn't be an issue in terms of weight distribution as I think it will end up being in the 2nd bay and the gen and propane tank will probably go in the first bay. Between water, tanks, water heater and batteries that bay could hit 3000lbs easy.

How do I find out the load limits of the bays?

156 gallon fuel tank, is that in the same bay with the HVAC equipment?

Jim

Not likely to find legitimate "rating" for the bays...

The whole bus weight thing is an ever growing problem between manufacturers and the authorities.

The latest J models have 365 wide tires on the steer...!!! And I thought 315 was wide...

If their true baggage bay capabilities were published... there's problems with the rest of the "calculations" for the axle and tire loading... best to stay silent...

Are we talking about an old 102DL?

(please go into your profile and add some particulars under your signature or whatever it's called, you see the bits under the avatar and across the bottom of other's posts, I can't remember what everyone's ride is and neither does anyone else...)

Back to the DL... body structure issues... they delaminated both the floors and the siding due to flexing...

You could feel the flex in a 7 speed stick shift going over bridge joints...

First, has your coach had the proper upgrade/work around performed, second, how much gambling do you want to do, by loading it up heavy?

Placing these heavy conversion items is a wicked science, to get enough weight on the steer axle, but not overload it... neither too light or overloaded is a desirable, or safe outcome.

The 45 foot coaches are way worse than the 40 and 35 for a busnut being able to affect the front axle as dramatically. The hobby is into new uncharted territory in this regard.

Unfortunately, not much legitimate reporting on the 45'r has shown up yet, as not many of them in busnut hands yet, and then the busnut has to have an appreciation of scientific methodology and bothers to properly record their experiments.

Sadly, it seems the engineers are all gone away from the bus boards who had the ability to model the outcome...

Sliding out of control on a wet road, or blowing steer tires and suspension will be the cost of getting it wrong.

Be careful, and weigh everything as you proceed. Sometimes an inch can be worth 100 lbs on the steer...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

It might be a good idea to spend a few hours with that graph paper and a list of everything you want to put in the bays before you make any hard decisions.

Along with the graph paper, perhaps a few sheets of ledger paper where you can start doing the math on the weights of everything. It's surprising how quickly the weight can build without being noticed.

In the time I've been involved with bus conversions (which is not long compared to others here) I've found that everything done on a bus is a compromise. You've got a long list of things you're hoping to include in this build, and my suspicion is that you'll be overweight before even putting the first dish in the cupboard. With some really careful planning you might be able to do nearly everything you want, but the math is going to be important as you move forward and start making decisions.

Thanks BusWarrior, got that added, and I have questions for which I hope you have answers. The bus will be here next week and that will make things a bit easier. I can measure and do some rough weight calculations, though I'm not real sure how to deal with the tag axle. Maybe the balance point between the axles would be 1/3 the distance between the axles behind the drive axle, that would be my best guess. Then it's a pretty easy calculation between that point and the front axle.

Maybe you have access to this information:
Empty weight on the front axle,
Max weight on the front axle,
Empty weight on the drive axle,
Max weight on the drive axle,
Empty weight on the tag axle,
Max weight on the drive axle,

and the preferred load on the steering axle.

With that I can get in the ballpark I think. I can subtract the weight of the seats but since the lavatory is already gone I have no way to know what that weighed. I can however take it to the local scales once I have tags on it. But by then the tanks will most likely be installed so I need to get close first. I also have a grain scale so I can weigh the components before they go in.

Fortunately the tank will transfer the load primarily to the sides of the bay, and the sides have what appear to be some fairly substantial struts up to the floor. I'll know more when I do a physical inspection. Steel is very strong under tensile stress so it seems it would take a fairly massive load concentrated in the center of the bay to deform the floor of the bay, and that's not what we have here so structurally I expect the bus will be OK.

For a quick reality check, I just calculated that 55 passengers at an average weight of 175lbs each comes to 9625 lbs. So I have that much to work with plus baggage I would think. Eventually I hope to find out what that is, even if I get there by weighing the bus and reading the tire ratings.

The water is a big weight, and so is the propane, but there will be less of it. Then the generator, batteries, and with each item the weight decreases. But the total is apparently going to come closer to the max weight than I would have suspected. There will be some weight upstairs also of course. It all adds up but I think it shouldn't be all that hard to stay within limits.

Jim

It is the busnut ability to concentrate weight in ways the coach in seated service is not able to.

Those passengers can only concentrate as tightly as the seating allows.

As example, your proposed water tank can put 1/4 of your passenger calculation, usually spread over maybe 10-12 feet of the chassis, into 3 feet of the chassis, and "hanging" below, not sitting above. That's a lot more "tippy" a load from a front/rear standpoint, if you get my meaning. Move it an inch or two, will be quite measurable in axle weight change.

The manufacturer plates in the coach will have the max axle ratings on them.

For the current loads, take the coach directly to the scales and do each axle. It will be gratifying later on to have the current results to compare to.

Strip the interior and go weigh it again for an accurate measure of where you started.

For busnut purposes, your 156 gallons of fuel can be counted the same as water, 8 lbs per US gallon... also remember, that weight goes away as you burn fuel... fresh water migrates to the waste tank... generators and batteries are best to stay put...

From an evolutionary point, notice the differences in where the heavy components are located between a DL and an E or a J. Fuel and HVAC... a very dirty, unspoken secret, that became known to the authorities...

Everything went hard to the rear... weights weren't good in passenger service on the steer...

There is both a "teeter-totter" effect with the drives as an off centre fulcrum, as well as a simpler front to back effect to loading. The air suspension is a wrinkle, the pressure changes to keep the coach "level"... nothing is proportional, a little more weight in the bays towards the back goes to both the drive and tag, yet also puts some weight to the steer...

The DL empty were felt to be "light" in the steer axle, as we were all coming from 40 footers, they felt more prone to side wind effects, and not as grippy in slippery conditions. Right or wrong, we always loaded the front bay full of passenger luggage in a poor attempt to get it more "solid" on the road, especially in winter.

The J are worse for being light in the front unloaded.

However, the rear has to have sufficient ratio of weight on it, or you spin the drives on a rainy day pulling away from a light, and snap the driveshaft u-joint as the wheels come spinning off the crosswalk paint and grab the pavement...

Contradictions, I know...

What to do?

I'd be working on percentages added to empty scale numbers, with a bias towards the steer being a little heavier when you are done.

I would cautiously not be concerned about closing on the front axle rating, provided some suitable proportion was also onto the rear.

That's why the current weights, the empty weights, and what the weights are with various conversion bits put temporarily in place for a trip to the scales is really important to have, and to share, for those who follow.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

All of which makes perfect sense to me.
Now, Dave's Dimensions lists the 102C3 as having a max weight of 36,000lbs. This makes sense if you take a typical max weight for an eighteen wheeler of 80K gross, divide by 18 and multiply by 8. You get 35,555. Different tires, different values but the DOT sets the maximums based on tire loading to prevent roadway damage.

OK, so if you subtract 10K from that it means that the empty weight of the coach could be somewhere not too far from 26,000 lbs. That seems surprisingly reasonable, but maybe it's closer to 20K. I just don't know. Probably somewhere in that range.

So as you suggested, running to the scale house with empty tanks makes a great starting point, especially if the tanks have been weighed before going in. Then weighed full. Then the other items can be added and juggled somewhat to balance the load. That seems like a good plan. I will try to carefully document all weights added and removed before the first weighing.

So, if it turns out that the wet tanks go in the middle bay, and the propane tank goes in the front bay, then placement of the batteries, genset and remaining items might work out well.  Yes, the weight would be centered and low but doesn't lowering the CG add stability? It will also effectively decrease the polar moment of inertia relative to total weight, which in this case would do little for directional stability. Having not driven the bus I defer to those who have, I'm just asking.

BTW, the weight of propane is 4.2 lbs/gallon so a 100 gallon tank holds 420 lbs of propane. Bit of a bonus there. The genset may also weigh around 400 lbs but I haven't weighed it yet and then there is also the tank weight. Presumably a furnace of some sort would go in the remaining space but those are relatively light. So figure 1000 lbs in the front bay, 3000+ lbs in the center bay and an unknown in the rear bay, yes I can see where shifting up to 1600 lbs (~100 gal. x 2 waste tanks) from the center bay to the rear bay might make good sense, leaving about 2000 lbs in the center bay (250 gal water) which can be shifted 17" fore/aft. It all depends on the placement of the toilet. The current layout has the toilet about 17 ft from the back of the bus which I suspect puts it directly over the rear bay, possibly even to the rear of that bay and shifting the floorplan to move it to one side or the other may be feasible.

Except that it isn't a total of 3600 wet lbs is it? It's 2000, because you don't start out with full waste tanks. The waste tanks get filled as the water tank empties, shifting the weight rearward. I was sort of hoping to minimize that effect by putting the tanks side by side and I think it still makes a lot of sense to do that. In fact I haven't really seen a reason not to at this point. It may in fact be possible that the weight in the front bay will allow the wet tanks to be in the rear bay, leaving the center bay empty. Or, the front end could be a little light. But some math will get that sorted once I have actual numbers to work with.

As far as gross weight goes, by this point I've added about 3000 lbs total weight and have everything except batteries, A/C, power distribution, and various odds and ends, plumbing, wiring and the interior. Plus I've removed several hundred pounds of seats. Even if I add another 1000 lbs to the basement that still leaves at a minimum 6000 lbs for the upstairs. That's a heck of a lot of weight for furnishings, if I can't stay under that I give up.

But of course, who knows what the wife will want to bring aboard.

Jim

Two thoughts:

Side to side weight will also be important to consider, and where you place the kitchen and cabinets will affect that. Same with that marble countertop and/or tiled shower install if you go that route.

That 6,000 pounds can disappear quickly when the things you're not yet including get added to the list. Just a few things that most of us carry can add 500+ pounds instantly (tools/tool box, emergency equipment, jack & jack stands). Heck, I probably carry 50 pounds in just manuals and reference material alone. Then there's the weight of all the flooring, the furniture, the kitchen appliances and countertop, etc. etc. What seems like a huge amount of capacity to play with will go away in a heartbeat.

You want the heaviest load in the back bay of a DL#,the HVAC system,electrical, and fuel tank is forward of the back bay,keep the front bay lite if possible the DL is easy to over load the front axle,I don't have the the factory Ac so my total house system electrical  is in that space 6-8D batteries and stacked inverters,the 2 front bays are open on my DL 3.You need to keep the middle bay on the drivers side open there is a lot of electrical in the top of that bay you need to be able to get too from time to time   

best place to put all the water tanks is in the rear bay and if you can have the tanks run side to side and a tank higher then wider will work better . then the next heaviest stuff work from the back to the front . yes try to leave the front 2 bays open for light stuff .

my tanks are very tall and skinny side to side 150 gal. fresh 110 grey and 55 black . my fuel tank is between the back bay and the 3rd bay and is 190 gal. the front 3 bays are loaded light . on the Featherlite

dave   

While you're on the subject of water tankage I'll throw in my standard recommendation to at least consider 2 freshwater tanks - one exclusively devoted to drinking water and another for "everything else".  That will let you pick and choose where you source your drinking water and if you end up traveling where drinking water is suspect it will let you refill from known good sources.  A relatively small tank will serve a long time if it is used exclusively for drinking. 

My coach was fully converted when I bought it. This topic came up previously so I went out and sketched out the placement of the heavier components. The owner/designer was very thoughtful and thorough and built during the heyday of conversions so lots of valuable opinions weighed in I suspect.


The layout and weight distribution seems logical and makes sense. The bus came with full documentation and there wasn't a single sketch, calculation, note, or spec relating to this aspect of the design.


Personally, I think doing something to this level of due diligence is about the most you can do from a practical standpoint. It seems highly unlikely you will obtains sufficient measurements and formulas and expertise to develop any even remotely engineered structural, static and dynamic load calculations. Even if you did, then it only applies if you disregard practical and usability requirements such as access to batteries, genset, etc.


Additionally, your approach of buying used stuff on the cheap adds to the difficulty of finding components that match any engineered specs.


The bus hasn't arrived and it's cold outside, so no lost cycles mulling over this sort of topic but personally, I'd be spending my time in the MCI conversion groups picking their brain about what works and what doesn't. These conversions have been on the road for many years already and I suspect you will gain far more insight from that pool of knowledge rather than on an esoteric mehcnical engineering and physics topic over which practicalities are going to win out in the end.

Thanks guys, all of this advice is really helpful and I mean that sincerely.

Yes, I see now that the HVAC would have to be between the 2nd and 3rd bay from the front. Just going from photos until later this week.

I do not plan to have a very large kitchen counter, so I hope to get by without a whole lot of weight there. If I can shave a half inch off the thickness I'll do that, provided it doesn't make it too weak around the sink. For flooring I plan to look and see what sort of new materials are available. I understand there are some pretty good synthetic floor coverings that look good, wear well, are waterproof and provide some cushion. Hopefully that can go over the existing floor without much trouble (some leveling at the old floor tracks I expect) and at a reasonable cost. That shouldn't add all that much weight. Provided I find something I like I may use it throughout. No claw foot bathtub. Fiberglass will be just fine. The bathroom counter doesn't need to be anything special, the main reason for granite in the kitchen is because you never need to worry about setting a hot skillet on it. Seen way too many countertops ruined that way.

I do get the point about the weights adding up. It's the opposite of adding lightness in car building, every gram does count. But, 3 tons is a LOT of weight, and yes, there's a lot of stuff to go in. Still, I don't think I really need to skimp on the construction to keep the weight down, just try to use light materials where it makes sense to do so.

Now about that front axle loading, it must be rather critical because I'm hearing two perspectives there. One, load the heavier weights rearward to keep from overloading, and Two, be sure to get enough weight on the front axle to avoid skidding under slippery conditions.

In your experienced opinions then, provided your front bay is open for personal gear and possibly some of the second bay (driver's side), when you pack up to head out how much weight do you think you add to those areas? Some sort of estimate would help me approximate the front tire loading when ready to roll.

As for tools, yes I will be carrying some weight there. Blocking and such will be downstairs but most of the hand tools and such will be in the back room over the tag axle. That room will gain weight over time, but exactly how much is hard to say. More of that weight will be on the driver's side than on the passenger's. I'm not sure that properly offsets the weight of the granite countertop and stove (refer is opposite) but I figure if I avoid anything that will obviously unbalance the bus it should be OK. I mean, did any of you drivers ever have to tell people to move to the other side of the bus? I sometimes had to do that when I guided whitewater rafts but that usually had more to do with paddling strength than weight.

Both of my waste tanks will be full height, no reason not to. At least in the current plan, which of course could change. 17" wide and presently I'm thinking that the 70 gal or so capacity I'd get by making them each half the width of the water tank is going to be adequate. Easy to dispose of gray water and that much black water is probably more than I want to carry around for any length of time anyway. That's a lot of toilet usage. And it gives me about 30" of overall full width depth in the bay. Some of which will be taken up with plumbing of course. I'll think about the tank for drinking water, it's a decent suggestion and not too hard to add, but it's a lower priority so I'll see how things look once the other bits are in place. I think I could add close to 40 gallons rather easily, but I'll see how the weight goes.

Thanks for the tip about the electrical by the way.

And finally, where are these MCI bus conversion groups you recommend? If it's Facebook, I sort of have a problem with all the effort required to sift through the endless socializing in attempts to find one or two lonely nuggets of relevant information. You can question my competence to do this job and probably you should. But likewise I shouldn't have to keep repeating my past experience and qualifications. I'm not some damned dummy who's never done anything like this before. OTOH, there most certainly is MCI specific information that I do not have and even more particularly 102DL info, and I am certainly grateful for any of that which come my way from any source. Delivery is just days away now, perhaps as soon as midweek so I feel like this sort of advance planning has been extremely helpful.

Jim

Make sure to consider the fall for the lines feeding gray and black tanks. You'll likely to use tanks not as tall as the bay unless you run the plumbing above the floor.

Jim, you seem totally competent to me in undertaking this sort or project. My only point is to simply piggyback on the existing work and body of knowledge that precedes you. None of this is rocket science and nothing that has been chewed over for decades. It seems to me it would be quite acceptable to develop a list of best practices, design considerations, etc. that would likely get 90% of the coach to meet your needs, leaving the 10% for your unique requirements and desires. I'm sure your end result will work fine for your desired requirements and I am very interested to follow along your journey. Who knows, it might inspire me to want to DIY convert one of these MCI coming out of service. They are so cheap, you can buy two, keep one for spares.

My distaste for FB is substantial; I rarely use the word hate but FB comes close for a variety of reasons. FMCA has some groups that may be useful. There is a fairly large group of GM busnuts that seem still intact. Maybe an MCI focused group exists. Like anything and everything done on the internet o.ne must do quite a bit of heavy filtering to find the bits that apply to your inquiry, still worth in my opinion, one good tip can save a lot of angst, wasted time, labor, and resources avoiding some error in design or build.

I've seen 1/4" per ft as a recommended slope for drain lines, and none of my lines are going to be longer than 4 ft if my layout holds. The toilet will be a direct drop. Final tank dimensions will take that into account, as will tank positioning so far as possible.

I don't mind doing the weight calculations to locate the tanks. Each of these is going to use different tanks and different volumes. Unless someone set up to make tanks specifically for the DL I can't see that changing. Plus, it looks to me like the DL is yet to become a big player in bus conversions. It's the new kid in town and chances are pretty good it's going to take off but we're only seeing the beginnings of that, so I don't really think there are that many of them out there yet. I've been through a similar scenario with MGB engine conversions, you hit a critical mass and then established methods begin to appear. I'm just not sure we're there yet.

Jim

Remember, your plumbing gets to sit on an angle when parked someplace less than level.

House plumbing 1/4 per foot won't drain in lots of parking situations.

Steeper runs, and you'll never think about it again.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Jim -

Some thoughts and info for you:

Our recently sold MCI MC-5C (35') had two water tanks in the rear bay.  The grey/black tank was (20" x 21"x 54" = 98.5g) mounted E/W across the back of the bay. Dump valve for the tank was thru the floor on the driver's side, per code.  Toilet dropped straight into the tank on the passenger side, as were the kitchen and bath drain lines. The tank vent went out the rear bulkhead and exhausted in front of the RR dual.  The freshwater tank was (20"x 32"x 36" = 100g) mounted N/S in the center of the bay in front of the grey/black, with the fill coming in the top on the passenger side, with an adjacent 1/2" overflow discharge hose going down that bay's front wall thru a hole in the floor. We could go 7 - 10 days easily without having to dump by just being careful with our water usage.

On the driver's side, between the freshwater tank and the bay door, was the 8kW PowerTech diesel genset, inside it's own soundbox, mounted closer to the front of the bay's wall.  At the rear of the genset was the dump valve for the grey/black tank, exiting out the floor of the bay.  The back wall of this bay also had the auto transfer switch and the marine shore power connections.

On the passenger side, in front of the grey/black tank, sat the 11g SeaLand electric hot water heater.  This unit has a heat exchanger inside, which was tied into the coach's HVAC hot water line.  Thus going down the road, the engine heated the domestic water, and we'd only have to switch it on if we were parked for several days. The water pump was mounted vertically high on the front wall of this bay, feeding an accumulator tank that hung from the ceiling above the hot water heater.  All the plumbing was also on the ceiling.  The way this bay was laid out, I could actually stack eight of those square milk cartons with "stuff", and still have room for my 20-ton air-over-hydraulic jack.

The front bay (this model only has two) was completely open side-to-side, except for the house battery bank in the front portion of the bay. This housed two 8D deep cycles for the house, a Group 31 start battery for the genset, an Iota "smart" charger, a Vanner equalizer and the coach and house battery cut-off switches.  The coach A/C portion of the HVAC system was inoperable, but the heating system worked - thankfully! (HINT: Don't disable yours!) All of the A/C components were still in the condenser compartment behind the LF wheel, but I had planned on removing all of that equipment and moving the house batteries into that location in order to free up some space in the front bay.  Sold the coach before that happened, tho. . .

Angola Coach did the conversion on a brand new shell, and ALL of the cabinetry upstairs was built using 3/4" marine plywood, with a wooden laminate on top for looks.  Corian was used for the counter tops - kitchen, bath and dining room table. Drawers were built with 1/2" marine plywood, all with dovetail joints.  The coach was a '78, and not a squeak or rattle still.  Those on this board who have seen "Tortoise" can attest to the quality construction Angola put into their work.

Now, to answer your question, how much did all this weigh?  Well, we went across a local grain scale as we were leaving to go south for the winter, full of water and fuel (144g), plus loaded with all our "stuff" for five months on the road.  We tipped the scales right at 28,000 lbs - 10,450 on the front axle, 17,550 on the rear.  Coach has a 12,000 lb front axle limit, and a 20,000 lb rear.  Thus, fully loaded, still 4,000 lbs under our maximum GVW.

The 1992 40-foot Prevost we recently picked up is a completely different animal.  Converted on a new shell by Vantarè, I'm still trying to figure out all the thinking behind the build.  I do know that in the rear (4th) bay there is a 90g grey tank, a 60g black tank, the 150g fresh water tank, four 8D deep cycle house batteries (they're HEAVY!), two inverters, the auto transfer switch and a bunch of other electrics that I haven't figured out yet. I can tell you right now that after having the single grey/black tank on the MCI, having that split into two tanks is a big PITA to dump and rinse.  Yes, I can dump the grey into the black, and yes, I can dump the grey on the ground if I want, but I don't like that when trying to rinse the black with the grey, as the tanks equalize, sewage from the black can flow back into the grey.  Not smart!  IF I was building a two-tank system from scratch, I'd put the grey on top of the black with two dump valves - one to dump in the normal manner in a "Y" configuration with the black, and one on the passenger side dumping straight into the black for rinsing purposes.  Or simply use a single tank for both.

In the 3rd bay, passenger side has the AquaHot system, center in a N/S position is the 160g fuel tank, the driver's side has the shore connections (which go out thru the floor) and genset radiator/cooling blower in it's own soundbox.  The 2nd bay, passenger side, has an undercounter mini-fridge, a CruiseAire unit and storage.  Driver's side has the 15kW Martin genset in a sound box with two squirrel cage blowers for ventilation. The 1st (front) bay is completely open for storage, including a 24"x 48" Joey bed slide.

The inside is similar to the Angola in that it's all built with 3/4" marine plywood.  Vantarè was started by a yacht builder, so there's lots of experience in the build - you know, "how to put a quart into a pint bottle" type of storage everywhere. Marble floors in the galley and bath, granite counter tops in both, a 20cuft residential fridge, Splendide washer dryer, two complete entertainment centers front and rear, etc., all add to the weight of the rig.

When we first picked it up, and after topping off the 160g fuel tank, we ran it across a CAT scale in Chandler, AZ.  We had no idea how much fresh water was on board, nor what, if anything, was in the two holding tanks.  Rig weighed 40,120 lbs total, with 12,560 on the front axle, 18,460 on the drive, and 9100 on the tags.  We're getting ready to head south for the winter, so we'll run it across the scales again with all our "stuff" on board to see how things have changed (and to adjust the tire pressures appropriately for the load.)  For reference, the numbers on the Prevost's builder's plaque are GVWR 42,000, front 13,000, drive 22,000 and 10,000 on the tag with 12R22.5 tires on 8.25" rims.  It's a LOT heavier than the MCI, but it's also five feet longer, six inches wider and 18" taller, too.  Oh, and yes, I'm very much aware that I'm close to the limit on the front axle, so will be paying close attention to that as we go.

I know I've written almost a "senior paper" here, but wanted to share with you some real-world numbers and experience that hopefully you can put to good use - recognizing that you've got one more bay and five more feet to work with.

FWIW & HTH. . .

;)

PS: If you crunch the numbers, the MCI's weight distribution is almost identical to a '70's-era 911 Porsche, percentage wise! Sadly, it didn't have the power/weight ratio! :(

They are getting the buses up into the 60,000 GVW range now with just tires and adding more weight to the tag axle,the tag axles are starting to carry about the same weight as the front axle.I always wondered why the tag was so light on the older buses 

That was some very good information and gives a real world feel for how some typical loadings will work. I'll have to check on the availability and pricing of the marine plywood, that'd be a cut above the typical oak faced plywood. Better in the long run I'm sure, probably either could be made to work. I'm also a big fan of solid hardwood edging on the cut edges of the plywood. There is a trim piece about 3/8" thick with two rounded corners that works very well to glue and nail on and it can be formed around large radius curves and some smaller bends if it is steamed.

Regarding dumping the gray water through the black water tank, I feel if that is to be done, there are a couple things that might help. First, size the coupling line smaller than the outlet to reduce the amount of "equalizing" that occurs when the coupling valve is opened (only after the black water is dumped of course), and secondly, run a second dump line from the gray tank. In my case this would be a line from the other end of the gray tank with a "U" and running under the edge of the water tank to "T" or "Y" into the dump line. (my water tank has a slanted bottom so there is room to do that) Then finally, depending on how the system acts, after dumping the black, open the connecting valve and either run it some and shut it off and finish dumping through the second line, or open both dump lines. I'll be looking at sizing on these pretty soon. As I recall 3" is pretty common but 4" and 2" are also available. If  4" is used on the black water then a 3" coupling line and a 3" dump on the gray should do the job I think. So with the black tank emptied and the gray tank near full nothing is going to back up into the gray tank before it is half emptied at least. In that time the black tank should be pretty well flushed. But, the connecting valve could be closed at that point to be safe.

Are you guys using the typical bolt-and-indicator light setup to show levels or something else like a sight tube? I'm thinking the bolts are the easiest probably. I'll have to have insulators of course. One wrinkle I just thought of would be to use small expandable stoppers, that way they are easy to replace if the seal rots. Might even get by with just using a holesaw, stick in the stopper, put a wire under the nut and clamp it down. I'll look into that.

Jim

I never worry much about cleaning the black tank both our RV's have built in sprayers,I just hook the water supply up and turn it on till the water is clear

when I empty my tanks and there is some fresh water in the water tank I use the sprayer for the black tank to add lots of water . then I drain the black tank . then I empty the grey tank to clean the valves and drain the line . I have a power valve that I can empty the grey tank from the drivers seat if ever needed . not that I would ever do that when I am driving . dam tailgaters

dave

double post
oops crap !


dave

I guess y'all heard about that guy who got caught dumping his tanks across a cheese grater bridge and hit the pleasure boaters with it? I can sympathize with 'em, that's nasty. No remote dump for this rig. I want to know exactly where that $#!% is going.

One step closer, all the purchasing details are completed, simply waiting on delivery.

Jim

(Driver for the Steve Miller Band, incident occurred in Chicago, resulted in a civil suit. So, don't do that, it made people sick.)

But on that topic, someone mentioned venting the waste tanks into the wheelwells and I find that prospect intriguing. Well first I naturally have to ask, does it ever smell a bit when you walk around the coach? But once you get past that the idea seems to have some real merit because wheelwells are often a low pressure area, meaning it has at least the potential to draw a partial vacuum on the tanks going down the road. That could be tested with a manometer.

But how do you deal with the splash? I mean you can't just run directly back with it, the slosh in the tanks would have you dumping on the road. I suppose you could route the tube in a square circle around and above the tank, that might do it.

I'll admit, I'm not at all familiar with how busnuts handle this. I think I saw one reference to running it up somewhere inside the rear cap, maybe up by the radiator fans? That seems like it could be a practical solution. What do most of you guys do about this?

Then there's the whole question about the pressure differential going down the road. There was a discussion about this, how the pressure inside the bus tends to be less than outside so that when you flush it stinks up the inside of the bus. I've heard people complain about this on commercial bus rides. So I just wonder if it would be feasible to maybe attach the vent line to the radiator fan shroud? The idea being to have the fan try to draw air out of the waste tanks any time the engine is running. Is there any chance that might work?

Jim

We've got the original system as installed by Custom Coach. Our venting consists of a length of 1/2 OD vinyl tubing run from the top of the tanks and back down through the floor of the bay immediately next to the tanks.

There has never been any splashing of the contents from the tanks out the vents. But, we never let the contents get within a few inches of the top since it would also bring smell into the bus and possible sloshing into the bottom of the toilet.

What's clear from our set up is a few things: The minimal venting we have serves one purpose - it allows air in/out of the tank as necessary to allow for the change in fluid level. That said, when we dump the waste tank it will gurgle the water in the P-traps. Also clear is that this type of venting does not keep smells from coming out of the toilet when it is used, especially if used while on the road.

If you read through the FMCA forum for threads about venting, you'll see that this is an issue for nearly every type of motor home and RV. From my reading, the best method is to use a 2"+ PVC pipe going straight up through the roof, capped with a gadget that causes a negative pressure from the slightest breeze. This setup seems to reduce odors in the coach regardless of whether the coach is in motion or parked.

This is our second Custom Coach conversion, and I'd say that the venting is one area where they missed big time. If I had an easy way to do so i'd run a vent from our waste tank directly through the roof before our next trip. Any method that you're considering which doesn't vent up and out will likely have issues with odor inside the coach.

Stink comes from poor venting.

Lack of oxygen to the correct bacteria let's the smelly bacteria rule the tank. With enough air, a holding tank smells much better, the stink doesn't get generated in the first place.

Two vents, allowing cross flow, and you'll not waste your money adding perfume to the tanks again.

If your coach gives off nasty odours, nobody wants to be your friend.

The boat peeps have a guru on sanitation.

Peggy Hall writes a great book https://www.amazon.com/Get-Boat-Odors-Peggie-Hall/dp/1892399156

It is not unheard of to have two 1.5" vents out either side of a boat to accomplish good aeration.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

OK, well I can see where practicality might impact the theoretical here. Makes me wonder how hard it would be to run a couple of 2" lines, one down either side of the bus up and into the fan shroud. In my case with the two waste tanks running near full width I could just tie the tops together in the middle. That way any sloshing would tend to draw in fresh air maybe.

Are you saying that actually circulating air through the tank would make it stink less? Seems a little counterintuitive, but maybe only hook one of those lines to the fan shroud and go through the roof with one of those FMCA doohickeys on the other?

Probably would be better to put the two lines on the black tank and run a smaller single vent line for the gray tank and tie it in about half way up.

Jim

There's no need to over think this. Just run a pipe from the tank up to the roof. Then put one of these on the top:

https://www.amazon.com/Camco-40595-White-Cyclone-Plumbing/dp/B003P64XU4

I've seen installations where the gray and the black tanks join together and share a roof vent. The whole idea is to create negative pressure inside the black tank so that when you flush the odor is being sucked up the vent pipe and not into the coach. The gray water has a p-trap which will prevent odors for the most part. The toilet will not - they just drop straight down into the tank. When you flush there is a direct connection between the stink and the coach. Amazing how much stink can come into the coach in just the time it takes to flush.

If you look how job johnnys are designed, the "input opening" is recessed a couple inches down into tank. The vent to roof is connected at very top of tank. That difference in elevation allows odors to go out the vent tube, even with the large opening under the seat that is mostly open. Excellent design.

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on December 05, 2018, 09:22:57 AM
Are you saying that actually circulating air through the tank would make it stink less? Seems a little counterintuitive, but maybe only hook one of those lines to the fan shroud and go through the roof with one of those FMCA doohickeys on the other?

I wouldn't go there.  Its a holding tank, not a composting tank.

The big difference from the boating world is the speed going down the road and all the weird pressure gradients that develop. I know that just venting out the roof with a modified residential stack is not ideal, but that's the way a lot have done it.  Its not the smell from flushing that gets you - its the stink that gets sucked into the coach going down the road. You're on the right track looking for a way to vent into a low pressure zone but the engineering is way above my pay grade.

Or you could pipe a vent into engine with a shutoff/ diversion valve. When engine is operating, valve allows fumes into air cleaner so engine can burn them. When engine is off, valve diverts to roof vent. A little more elaborate would be an additional diverter to gen set when it is running.

There used to be a product called "Stinkerator", if I recall correctly that was advertised in Bus Conversion Magazine back in the nineties, at least. This was a small fan in the vent pipe that ran constantly to create a slight vacuum in the holding tank to help keep the fumes going out the vent when flushing was going on. If it is no longer around, it might not have been effective in reducing odor leakage, or dependable. When looking for it on the Internet, I discovered that there are many such in-pipe fans of various sizes being used as battery box vents, and radon gas vents (in homes). It seems that having good vent pipes combined with a good sized fan that turns on when the toilet is being flushed, is the ultimate guarantee of keeping fumes out of the interior. The idea of having piping into the air cleaner sounds good, but would the suction be enough to draw the fumes out when flushing? Would the intake noise be transmitted down the pipes into the cabin? If you stand outside next to the air intake (at least on an Eagle) it sounds like a 2 cycle heartbeat.

Another solution to the fume problem with the RV style toilets, is to have a home-style toilet with a water trap, which would eliminate fume leakage (hopefully). Previous postings from people that have them indicate they are happy with them. The only problem is that they use more water even with the low-flow flush models.

There are bilge fans like that but I wonder if the corrosiveness of the environment might drastically shorten their lifespan. Also I'm not sure I'd want to mess with the engine's induction system for a whole bunch of reasons. Like messing up the intake airflow and screwing up the air/fuel ratio. So I'll not pursue that idea here but who knows. Could be a useful idea. A lot will depend on how much room is there for routing. After all, PVC pipe is cheap. If I was going to try one of those I think it'd be the bilge fan even though it might not last long. Maybe tie it to the bathroom light or the ceiling fan.

That difference in vent height and inlet height could be worth something. I'm not altogether certain the gasses we're talking about here are lighter than air but I guess it couldn't hurt. Reduce the tank volume a bit, but only at the top.

Also thanks for the link. Those weren't available when I had the Coachman, and I made something out of a street "T" and reducers. It was fixed and didn't rotate but seemed to make a difference going down the road but nothing to amount to anything when parked. I hate to stick anything through the roof but might make an exception for that. I also figure that if it is drawing the fumes out continuously it about has to lower the concentration some. I have noticed that in open sanitation systems (sewers, pumping stations and such) where exposed to free oxygen, they still stink but not as bad as you might expect. Still, that black tank is some concentrated nasty.

This could take some trial and error. Towards that end I think I will try to avoid irreversible changes as much as I can, but that weathervane really does look like something that could do the job. Anybody have actual experience with those?

Jim

Still way too complicated. Venting black tanks is pretty well an established science now. Even the high-end million dollar coaches just stick a pipe through the roof and put a device on top to catch the breeze, however slight. It only takes a very slight movement to get the thing venting.

There should be little problem with leaking if done properly. Even moreso on a bus than on a motor home since we have a metal roof to work with and to seal against.

Seems like the biggest problems come from lack of maintenance on black tanks. The devices on top of the vent pipe need to be kept clean and lubricated once in a while with a plastic-safe lubricant, the black tank should not be kept full (they stink worse when full) and A flushing once in a while to remove kling-ons from the sides of the tank so that solids are not above the liquid level.

The other things that seem likely to cause stink inside the coach are a bad/worn/dirty seal on the toilet flapper valve and/or water sloshing out of p-traps while driving.  A poorly sealed tank mounting seal can also be a problem.

Close the toll window when flushing underway...

Huge sucking out the toll window at speed.

Hard for the passengers to discreetly use the conversion outhouse... either tell the driver, or release the stink into the coach, either way, we'll all know you went...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Holding tanks stink for a reason,you need to read about the gases in sewer they are lighter than air,passenger buses use a sealed tank with a suction fan when restroom equipped ,just walk behind one of those if you want a whiff of sewer gas.When people come to the shop for work if they are going to be here long I ask they drain and flush the tank my shop is 18 ft tall and in 3 days a 1/2 full holding tank will fill the shop with sewer gas 

Quote from: buswarrior on December 06, 2018, 05:53:57 AM

Huge sucking out the toll window at speed.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

I can second that, I lost a nice set of Serengeti sunglasses with a leather case that got sucked out that window. It was like a mini tornado action. It would take a big fan in the bathroom to compete with that suction.  :o

Aha. That's some critical information.
At one time we were beginning to discuss where the lower inside pressure comes from but didn't get very far with it. This is obviously one very large source. Leakage around the door might be another. Which makes perfect sense when you consider the bow wave that comes off the front of the rig and the eddies it has to create behind it. Any opening into those eddies will suck big time.

Now the vent line doesn't have to match that air volume, it only has to match the pressure difference it creates. That could be measured with a manometer as long as you have a consistent reference pressure to the outside. Aircraft do that with a pitot tube but it doesn't have to be dead accurate, it only has to be a steady reference. So you could cobble up something that would work, it could be as simple as attaching one port to the vent line and leaving the other port open to the bus interior. Then use the manometer to measure inside pressure (with the toll window open and closed) against the pressure in the vent line. This gives a scientific method of evaluating the effectiveness of any method used for depressurizing the tank. Was that ever done with the weathervane, or was it just evaluated by nose?

You can buy those U-tube manometers for next to nothing online and they will work just fine. In fact it might be a good idea to have one in the bathroom just so you know if it's safe to flush. Maybe as a reminder to tell the driver to shut his window.

Jim

Remember, depending on the particular bus model all the high/low pressure calculations change if you're running the OTR HVAC system. When mine is running, even with the nose vent closed, the entire bus has positive pressure. If the HVAC system is running, there will be a rush of air out of the passenger door when I open it, even at a dead stop. Suction out the toll window in my bus gets even more powerful if the HVAC is running.

There is an air gasper on the pillar to the left of the driver in my bus. If the HVAC is running almost no air blows through the gasper, even on the highway. Turn off the HVAC and air will rush in when the gasper is open.

Quote:  Are you saying that actually circulating air through the tank would make it stink less? Seems a little counterintuitive, unquote

You have to know why things stink, before you try to combat it.

The RV industry want to SELL you stuff, they do NOT want a solution...

Some bacteria are your friend, some aren't. Most RV strategies quite purposely kill the friendly ones to perpetuate the myth, both saving money on build, and selling product to compensate.

You've got everything you need in this thread, roll the dice, pick your school of thought and get building!

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

The reviews on that Camco vent weathervane had a significant number who felt it was of little or no benefit as well as 2 or 3 who criticized it for sometimes operating in reverse, two who said it could direct rain water into the tank, and a fair number who complained of squeaking, discoloration, warping and then the largest complaint by far, simply blowing off when on the road. (coming apart) They also generally described a 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" vent pipe.

The alternative seems to be the 360 degree siphon vent which is not dependent on wind direction but probably does not generate as much suction either. So at this point I'm thinking a 1-1/2" pipe with a 360 siphon vent cap and below that a bilge fan switched by the bathroom light, coming through the rear cap, and then perhaps a second somewhat smaller pipe attaching to the radiator fan shroud. That way one or the other or both can draw vapors out depending on circumstances as well as circulating fresh air through the tank.

Concerning the weight of sewer gases, two are heavier than air, carbon monoxide and hydrogen sulfide, both of which are poisonous and will accumulate in the tank and vent stack, exiting at the toilet if they can. The ammonia, methane and such are lighter than air and will go up the vent. Fresh air in the tank will reduce the production of Hydrogen Sulfide which is the primary odorant. Methane and carbon monoxide are odorless.

Jim

Yeah, rain water getting into tank.....come on.

Art Carney  ;)

Reliable, knowledgeable online reviews of an RV product? Scientific principles?

That isn't happening...

Those cute weathervane things are intended to earn the seller some money.

How long does the oxygen last in the tank?
How much turn over, in what time is required for the correct bacteria to be healthy?
How much less air would draw out a flat cut pipe in whatever breeze at the same elevation?

Wouldn't the manufacturer be dazzling the intended market with science, to further their sales, if there was any?

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

This is way too complicated. Just put a vent pipe in it that stick out through the roof, and go on to something else.

JC

Quote from: lostagain on December 07, 2018, 06:58:11 AM
This is way too complicated. Just put a vent pipe in it that stick out through the roof, and go on to something else.

JC

:o :o :o :o

No, we have to keep going,

Gary needs the clicks and views to keep the advertising revenue up!

We haven't discussed building custom tanks yet?

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

We haven't even got to the tank vent under the bus yet  :o

And, he has not even gotten the bus yet!

I know right? But the two who complained about it said that the  thing would stick facing the wind and then the rain would go in. Seems like it'd have to be an awful lot of rain to make any difference. But then again some people will complain about anything so who's to say?

Well, today's the day. I'm supposed to get a call when the driver's a couple hours out. So I'm sitting here waiting, with great anxiety.

Jim

So, let's say the engine or transmission lets go 💥on the delivery to you.....who eats the repairs?💸😫
Once I know this, I can determine if you will have enough money left to buy some abs pipe to stick through the roof.

Enjoy your DL3 it is a fine piece of equipment

Beats any Prevost, any day. Can you tell I have a preference? LOL

JC

just buy this toilet . you will never have any stink problems . how do I know ? because I have one

https://www.headhunterinc.com/product/hydrovac/

dave

It might be great, but how much does it cost? The website does not give any indication of that. Being a marine product, it might be that if I have to ask about cost, chances are I can't afford it.  ::)

Well that's interesting, and not a bad idea either. I'll keep that in mind.

I now have physical possession of the bus. It got here about eight this evening, and since it's very dark out a good close look will have to wait for morning.

The turn into the driveway was made successfully but with very little room to spare. I will consider dropping a steel plate over the culvert to get more room. Then the engine cradle scraped just a little at one point so I'd like to see if it isn't possible to raise the rear of the bus a bit temporarily to get a little more clearance when I go in and out. If not, maybe I can trim the support rails a bit at the ends. No hurry though.

The driver said it ran great and he was very enthusiastic about it. I was probably more nervous about the entire transaction than I had any reasonable right to be. Mike Pouncey is a heck of a nice guy and helped me out in every way that he could. But now than this part is over and I feel like I'm not jinxing myself by disclosing the details I feel free to tell you guys some more about it. First off, I learned that the engine in the bus has only 140K miles on it. I asked about the bull gear and he checked with maintenance and found the engine had been replaced, so I've essentially got a new engine in the bus. I will still do the inpection on the bull gear in due course but apparently have nothing to fear in that regard.

I paid $5250 for the bus. This was due in much regard to the non-standard interior and the damage to the rear bumper, neither of which is a concern to me, but made it virtually unsalable to any other bus service. I paid $1375 to have it delivered to my home, so my out of pocket was well below my target of $8K and I really feel like I got quite the bargain. I have 36 seats I will need to dispose of but will not have to deal with the OEM lavatory. Interestingly, the overhead bins are equipped with underslung parcel trays and there a bunch of inverters hung below those. I haven't looked at the wattage yet but there are enough of them that any 120v things that I want to use can have their own individual inverter.

It also appears to have the "kneeling" feature. I don't know if it can self level or not. It does have cruise control, and a number of things that the driver wasn't able to tell me what they were. I have a lot of investigation to do. Tomorrow I'll do a walkaround and then move it out to the shop so I can start working on it, but I think I'll go back out tonight just for another look. The VIN number is: 1M8PDMPA7TP048598, hopefully someone here can link me to a site where I can access info about the bus and maybe manuals and such.

I feel I'm off to a very good start and seriously look forward to the work ahead.

Jim

Wow! Great to hear is arrived with no problems and a super price.Now that I know you'll have money left to work on it, here: lol

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Charlotte-Pipe-2-in-x-10-ft-280-Sch-40-Solidcore-PVC-DWV-Pipe/3133041

I would not worry about the bull gear now, buy a Pro/Link with the Detroit and Allison software because you are going to need it.Hope you have a 12.7 the 11.1 is a good engine too but lacks power   

Quote from: DoubleEagle on December 07, 2018, 07:41:04 PM
It might be great, but how much does it cost? The website does not give any indication of that. Being a marine product, it might be that if I have to ask about cost, chances are I can't afford it.  ::)

They are around 2 grand and you have to dump the pee separate and ugly IMO 

Quote from: chessie4905 on December 08, 2018, 04:08:32 AM
Wow! Great to hear is arrived with no problems and a super price.Now that I know you'll have money left to work on it, here: lol

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Charlotte-Pipe-2-in-x-10-ft-280-Sch-40-Solidcore-PVC-DWV-Pipe/3133041

Such a comedian.  ;D
I'm still under budgetary constraints naturally, but I do have $10K in the bank and money coming in from time to time. Plus I have my genset, fresh water tank, and a whole bunch of small inverters. I think that's not a bad start. Oh, and I think I might also have a length of 1-1/2" PVC pipe around here somewhere too. Gotta think about the important things.

I'm not spending any 2 grand on a toilet. That's just ridiculous. Says it uses nearly a gallon per flush, well any new residential toilet can do better than that. They are required to do it with 7 tenths of a gallon. I don't see any advantage with that thing. Either one uses too much water so unless there is another alternative I guess it'll be a RV toilet and I'll just have to make the venting system work.

Bonus: The rear storage bay is HUGE. It extends rearward well beyond the door opening. Suddenly more options have opened up.

I stuck my head in the wheelwells, the air bag stancheons have very little rust and as a matter of fact there doesn't seem to be much rust under the rig at all. Some latches need WD40, some paint touch up wouldn't hurt. Rear bumper looks quite acceptable. Seats are held in by 4 nuts that an impact will remove easily, tires are 315-22.5, fuel capacity is 195 gallons. I'm going out in a few minutes to start it up and move it out by the workshop.

Jim

Do yourself a favour and throw away all your WD40.

Use good quality sprays that actually have lubricant in them.

Often, a spray grease is a better choice.

Good lube isn't cheap,
Crap lube isn't expensive.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

WD 40 is what it is, mostly for water lock smiths love the stuff a big money maker for those guys when used on door locks and ignition switches       

All the issues I now have that need addressed and you guys jump on the WD40? Seems like a lack of imagination. Much more important is figuring out the various switches and controls. What is the T handle on the left of the seat labeled "Lock"? What is the square push button on the front of the shifter console that leaks air? Why did the low air buzzer come on after I hit the Kneel switch even though the gage shows 120? What is the thing that is running back in the engine compartment after I turned the engine off? What is the yellow box with the toggle switches for?

I could go on.

Turns out my inverters are 900W each and there are 10 of them. That should be enough inverter power I suspect. This thing also has a BUNCH of batteries, I haven't counted them yet but holy crap, it looks like twice what Andy has in his Peterbilt.

Seems pretty easy to drive. Feels a little strange being that far in front of the wheels but I'll get used to it.

Jim

I use tri-flo for a spray lubricant. Good stuff.

Do you have the manuals for your bus yet? They will be a great help in figuring all these things out. Try and resist the temptation to fix or repair things because they seem wrong until you confirm what they are and how they work. Lots of stuff on a coach like this will be way different than one is expecting, especially a bus like your that may have been customized by the PO over the years to suit their needs. I've had more than my share of Oh $h!t moments because I opened something up I shouldn't have, only to find out later that the noise it was making was normal. Learned the hard way to read the book and ask questions first.

Congrats on getting the bus to your site without any difficulties. That was a huge first step that takes many a lot more effort and money to accomplish. Now the real fun begins.

I have the drivers manual for the bus if I could post photos here you could see what all the switches are for ,open the rear door on the drivers side and look up you may have a websato,you have a pump to fill the radiator on the passengers side be sure it is turned off,there should be 2 -tee handles on the floor beside the seat those are for the seat

Your first job is to get all the manuals and start reading.

Operator's, Maintenance and Parts.

We take a dim view of wasting our time typing, if the newbie won't get equipped to help themselves.

Get online, they're out there.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Try the E place the MCI manuals are in 2 binders plus the operators manual,the series 60 is 2 manuals same with the Allison 

From MCI website.

102A/B/C
PART NUMBER    DESCRIPTION    EFF. DATE    TYPE
3K-15-1219C    Parts Manual w/o Section 3         Paper
3K-15-1223C    Parts Manual Supplement, Section 3, A2/A3         Paper
3L-15-582C    Parts Manual Supplement, Section 3, B3/C3         Paper
3L-15-306    Parts Manual Supplement, C3    01/1990    Paper
3K-15-1220A    Maintenance Manual         Paper
3K-15-827    Maintenance Manual Supplement, 102AW3         Paper
3K-15-1221C    Operator's Manual         Paper
7L-13-1480A    Wiring Diagram Manual,96/102         Paper

OK, I can see where some of you guys might get a little short with me in this situation but please bear in mind I do not have your wealth of specific experience and knowledge about this particular area. You know exactly where to go to get the manual you need. I don't even know how to figure out which manual would be the right one, or where to find the identifying number that is used to get the right manual. And you know good and well that without being able to ask someone who knows it could take me weeks to even find out. so instead of telling me that I'm too damned dumb to even ask an intelligent question, you could spend 30 seconds posting a link to a good source and explaining where the number is hidden on the bus. Thank you very much.

OK, that was a rant and I should apologize for it. And I will, but not this moment, not after I've been told that as a BusNut I have to have a thick skin. If that applies to me it has to apply to everyone else too. I do realize that some of these questions may have been asked a bunch of times, not that I've seen them since I've been here but sure. And I'll do a search for the threads even though I realize that is often a futile exercise, After all how do you search for something if you don't know what it's called? Thingey? Yeah, that's gonna work.

Just so y'all won't think I'm being harsh though, I like you guys. I think you are all pretty doggone smart. I like what you are doing and I respect you for getting on here and trying to help. There should be more like you. I'm flailing around like a Newbie because I are one. Clueless. So I'm asking you to help me. I've downloaded online manuals before, I know fully well how difficult it can be, and that there almost always is the expensive, way overpriced option and the free version, but in some cases you might spend half your life looking for the free version. I'd rather not do that and I'm sure you guys know which option is the best, and why. Are you willing to tell me? Maybe not after that rant, so I guess now is the time to apologize. So I'm sorry. I shouldn't have gone off. I just need a little help is all.

Jim

Jim, sorry I set you off I did mean to.  When I started my bus conversions in 1985 the plethora of information that is out there now was not available. Your bus experience will be a long process and really the conversion is never done until you hand the "keys" to the new owner!  We had our 4104 for 15 years and put 150,000 memorable miles on her.  Our 2001 truck conversion has 135,000 miles.

I am not familiar with your bus model as I had a 4104 and currently have a truck conversion.  I just went to the MCI website and that is what I found.  I think a phone call to MCI with your serial number in hand and they could tell you what manuals are pertinent to your coach.

With your background in cars you should have fun on the bus; things are just bigger and much heavier!

GaryD 

Thanks Gary, and again I apologize for spouting off. I knew I shouldn't post that and I did anyway. Mea culpa, I'm guilty. And I'm just coming at this from a different direction. Some of what I know will help but some of it will be in the way and I know that. Like I said, on buses I'm a Newbie. Sorry for asking stupid questions. I'm trying to become less stupid.

So I have some photos.

Image 1, is the a Webasto? I suspect it might be. Is the yellow box the controls for it?

Images 2 and 3, the bus

Image 4 the interior

I have more to post.

Jim

Images 5 and 6 show the rear of the passenger's compartment. There must be a way to remove those white panels but I haven't figured it out. Apparently they only removed the topside lavatory components.

And finally, seat removal. It took maybe 1/2 hr to go from photo 4 to photo 7, maybe 45 minutes if you include getting and putting away the tools. 4 11/16" zip nuts on each seat pair, the plastic covers had a screw only on the outside, they can be pushed out of the way to get a socket on the nut. A 3/8 impact worked fine for 3 of them and a 1/2" impact and extension for the 4th.

Maybe that's a lot of detail but if this thread is to be what the title says I think it needs the detail.

Jim

Jim, take it slow and relish in the fact that you got a running bus made by a company that still exists with a fresher engine than you thought, for a very good price! Not bad for a newbie. Even if you discover some mechanical flaws, so what, it made it from Connecticut without breaking down. The manuals can be had in paper and on disk, and they will be necessary at many points. The first thing you will need is the driver's manual, which will detail the controls and operation. If you want save money, try to do everything yourself. Being self-reliant is not just financially wise, it is deeply satisfying. Going down the road knowing that you are fully aware of how the coach functions, and not being at the mercy of mechanics of unknown virtue, is priceless (because no one is paying you to do all that work). Don't forget that this process will go on for years (even decades), so enjoy the ride.  8)

Photo 5 is of the access hatches into the top of the engine and transmission. They are very important. Do not cover them up and block them. You would regret that in the future.

JC

Thanks guys, and I will follow your advice. I'm not in any hurry, I have about 5 years to make it roadworthy and if I manage to do it before then that's just gravy.

I do all of my own maintenance work. I have maintenance manuals of some type for every piece of equipment I own. Grew up on a farm and learned to be self sufficient so I'm not afraid to tackle any task I have the tools and equipment to do. For what it's worth past experience includes rebuilding a D4 Cat dozer including new liners, pistons, bearings, hydraiulics etc, though we did let the shop do the head. This bus is now the biggest thing here and is a pretty big step up, but I think I can figure out how to do things. So far I'm pretty impressed with it. Can't hardly believe I traded my dirt bike for it.  ;D (well that's what I'm claiming, actually I sold the bike and used the money to buy the bus) Man, did I ever get a good deal there.

Tomorrow I'll get a good photo of one of the seats and list them for sale. Definitely the local craigslist. Awhile back I ran across a site that sells a lot of bus seats so I'll try to find that again. They were mostly asking about $75 each, I'd certainly take a lot less than that.

Then I guess the search is on for manuals, both an operator's manual and a maintenance manual. I've looked but I have no idea where to find a serial number unless it's the last part of the VIN. Acquiring manuals to find out where to look to get the serial number in order to get the right manuals is an obvious Catch 22. I was hoping for some help with that. I also have yet to find the tag with the weight limits and tire pressures but I wasn't looking for that one. Maybe in one of the bays I suppose.

Jim

The tire specs and vin number are in the stairways on the left side below the door latch ,the manuals are the same except for a few supplementals you pay extra for,don't waste the money on parts books they are all MCI numbers.Sam Caylor in Ks (cayor supply) has used manuals 785-873-3405.Doesn't appear looking at the hatches you have Jakes on that one unless just on the front 3 cylinders   

I suspect you are right about the Jake. We don't have the kind of mountains there are in the Rockies. I attached a couple of photos, maybe it's possible to tell from them.

Found the ID plate, thanks. I'll see about those manuals.

Also here's a module that doesn't look like it was original, if anyone might recognize it.

Going forward I'll try to curtail my unnecessary posts as they don't seem to be appreciated and just ask about things that I have already researched and haven't been able to find answers for. BTW, BW you are the one who convinced me that the D series was the way to go. But I'll not blame you when things don't go right. :D

Jim

This is the best piece of posting seen in a long while:

Quote:
Going forward I'll try to curtail my unnecessary posts as they don't seem to be appreciated and just ask about things that I have already researched and haven't been able to find answers for. BTW, BW you are the one who convinced me that the D series was the way to go. But I'll not blame you when things don't go right.

Unquote

This is a hobby for self starters, definitely not for followers...

You will enjoy the D model.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Strange the vin and tire plate doesn't show the rating for the 315 x 80 x 22.5 tires on that DL only the 12r's

I, for one, enjoy your posts even if they do get a little "wordy" at times. I also enjoy that many of us on here,myself included, also like to help someone else spend their money. :) And ,in the end, just like standing at a magazine rack,I can also choose, not to read it.
Over the years (Ive been here since the beginning) we've seen lots of guys make lots of boastful claims that made us wonder what the guy was smoking. So its kinda nice when someone actually does what we may consider impossible-like -ummm- removing the seats in less than an hour.

Since the bumper thread started, I have had time to build a 400 sq ft loft in my shop.  By myself.

Seats came out easy, because they were re-configured at some more recent time in the coach's life.

Someone else got to curse at the original frozen fasteners.

But don't tell Jim, we have to keep his morale high!

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Not true.
There was no corrosion. The bolts were either a 7/16 or a 1/2" (in the track) with an 11/16 hex zip nut (hardened flange nut with serrated teeth). No corrosion in evidence. One had to be removed with a cheater bar, it was up on the side wall. The rest came right off. Some seats had been removed but I see no evidence that the others were moved, but even had the nuts been rusted solid, a cheater would have done the trick. The nuts on the floor had plastic covers. The only possible exception would be if the bolts in the track had turned. Then it would have been a mess and the criticism would have been dead-on. (heat wrench required)

Jim

No worries fella. We can all bet our bank accounts that there will be more than a few occasions when Jim underestimates a 30 minute job, moaning and wallowing about his wallet being emptied of all the benjis. The saving grace in this build is a 5 year timeframe which allows for maximum time scouring the vast wasteland of used bus parts for the lowest cost options. Plus being flexible what the end product needs will help ensure it's "done" at some point.

You'd make your bet, though I'm not so sure about the "moaning and wallowing" bit. Yes I have a budget and yes I expect to exceed it. Transportation is just that way, so is any kind of construction. It's a given, so why complain? BUT, I've done well so far. Wanted a bus in good nick delivered to my door under $8K, done. (actual $6675) Wanted a genset under the usual $2-3K, also done. (actual $700, 8KW propane) Seats are completely out of the bus in under 2 hours. So far I think I've met every goal on those items completed. Granted that won't always work. AND I am at just over the 50th% mark on time estimating, which is to say I often miss by a factor of 2 or more but that still makes me slightly better than average. Seems OK to me.

Now for more info, the seats were anchored in using 7/16" NF "T" bolts in the floor rails, basically turn and lock, designed for more leverage on removal than on installation. A very good design. Leaves a rail in the floor that could accept a LED strip light:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5M-3528-5050-5630-SMD-12V-Waterproof-300-LED-Strip-Light-String-Ribbon-Tape-Roll/152607377699?hash=item23881bc923:rk:1:pf:0&var
Very cheap, so I may consider it.

Anyway I think that BW is dead-on right, I think I'm going to really enjoy this bus, and I think I'm going to enjoy building it. Happy to have all y'all along for the ride.

Jim

when I got my old beater I had to use a grinder on lots of the seat bolts but did sell the seats for $750 .only down side was I had to deliver them
but that was only 1/2 hour away

oh the joys of the conversion

you got lucky with no wash room . that was a real pain the @$# to get out

dave

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on December 09, 2018, 12:22:17 PM
Going forward I'll try to curtail my unnecessary posts as they don't seem to be appreciated and just ask about things that I have already researched and haven't been able to find answers for. BTW, BW you are the one who convinced me that the D series was the way to go. But I'll not blame you when things don't go right. :D

Some of us read without posting.  We still appreciate the opportunity to read.  Everyone has the option to not read as far as I know.  Keep them coming.

It's great that things are going well for you so far. Try and capture the feeling you have now as things move along so smoothly - you'll most likely need to think back on the smooth bits as you run into the rough parts. You've done this enough to know that they are coming, but I do wish you the best on this build and hope that you experience continued success.

There's fussin and cussin ahead, and soon. Got to remove all the cabinets they put in, the lower parcel shelves, inverters and 12v sockets and the bottom half of the lavatory. Can't see much point in leaving it. But that promises to be "interesting".

Jim

Hey Jim  When i was stripping the interior of my 96 MCI 102 D3 I listed the seats for sale on Kijiji and the buyer had to remove them. Sold them all, also one of the seat buyers wanted to purchase the bathroom really i said go for it.  :D he took it out.  I gave it to him for offering  ;D
The bus i have is made in August and serial # is 48901  not far from your May built bus.

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on December 10, 2018, 01:32:44 PM...  I am at just over the 50th% mark on time estimating, which is to say I often miss by a factor of 2 or more but that still makes me slightly better than average. Seems OK to me.  ...
Jim 

     Now you're puttin us on, right???  *Any* time I come in less than 10 times the estimated time, I feel like I flew through it!  And that doesn't include the doing-it-not-liking-it-and-doing-it-over time.  Speaking of doing things over, a couple of people visited my bus a while ago -- one of them said "What percentage you got done?"  A fellow who was working with me looked at him and said "he's about 240% right now".   ???

Anything worth doing is worth doing twice I always say.
I now have the operator's and maintenance manuals, thank you Steve, and have been studying. That's going to keep me busy for awhile. Some of what I've learned:
APPARENTLY (will confirm later) I have the 425hp DDEC-III and the transmission retarder. Unfortunately for me it seems I do not have the Rear Hi-Rise feature and that is something I will have to see if I can add. Don't know yet about self leveling. I'll be sorting out what is and isn't there for awhile. The luggage bay air locks were removed for instance, my mirror heat switch is there but broken, things like that.

I've read a thread on the retarder, is it the common consensus that you're better off not using it or using it very sparingly? I should know the age of the transmission in a few days.

I started on removing the old cabinets but may wait for another day.

Jim

Great!!  You are just starting, so not to disappoint you, but the real work starts now.  What ever estimates of time you think it is going to take to do a task on the actual conversion, multiply it by several times.  And while you are working on one project, if you see something that should be done while the task is being done, you have to stop and get that done before you can finish the actual first task.

It took me 10 years years to do my conversion, and I have no regrets.

On the passengers side on the valve cover is where you will find the info on the engine if you are lucky if it a 12.7 DDEC lll it should be 430 hp and 470hp on cruise control all bets are off till you find a reader or DDC software it tells all and doesn't lie ,is the retarder pre set or a  joy stick control ?

Self leveling is not found on factory buses out of the factory. It is added by converters for parking while camping.

JC

I've spent several hours today going through the manuals and have a number of things now to double check on the bus. I was wrong about the rear hi-rise switch, it's there. Which is good because I'll need it coming in my driveway. It was a relief to see that. I need to take a closer look at the shifter as there were several versions but it looks like the 4 or 5 speed for the 700 series transmission, and the retarder control looks like a small stick shift with a multi-position ratchet. Or joystick. I'll also try to look at the valve cover tomorrow. That'll be easier to access after I've removed the holding tank from the lavatory. I can see clean paint on the side of the engine block so that supports the engine replacement. Mike said he'd also be very surprised if the transmission hadn't also been replaced.

Geoff, I hope I don't spend 10 years on it. I'll do what I can to avoid that, like for instance I think the existing floor covering is going to be fine as it is, provided I can do something with those seat tracks and I think the strip lights are about the right width. I have some on hand I can use to test fit. I found the controls for the Webasto and want to fire that up soon, but I have more reading first and more interior work as well. Then it'll be time to fire the bus up again so I can check the sight windows in the freon tank. I noticed that there was a streak on the driveway after I moved it to the shop the morning after it got here and now I know that holding the brake pedal down when setting the emergency brake can cause the brakes to not want to release. That might be what happened there. A brake inspection is in my future but not right away.

Then I also want to weigh a seat assembly. Load capacity is 12,750lbs, with the seats and lavatory removed that should be over 14,000.

JC you are probably right about the leveling but the manuals do discuss it. I'll need to look into that and see what it take to do it.

Jim

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on December 11, 2018, 06:27:48 PM
I found the controls for the Webasto and want to fire that up soon,
Jim

Word of caution...check the exhaust before firing the Webasto, especially if there is anything flammable in site of the the exhaust tip. When I first fired mine on our first bus it started shooting flaming acorns and walnuts out the exhaust at high speed. Luckily we were on a gravel driveway so no damage done. Amazing what the little critters can hide up in there in a short time. If the unit has not been run this year it would be a good idea to take a look.

Otherwise, it's great to keep reading the positives about the bus that you keep discovering.

Well. the "leveling" system isn't really that, it's just a load compensating system so whatever guys are doing on the RV conversions makes a lot of sense.

I wanted to know what the sight glasses in the AC system should look like so I read that section. The answer? Halfway up on the lower sight glass. But in the process discovered that there's 3 tons of cooling in the "auxiliary" AC evaporators, one up front, one in each side of the overhead bins. Now 36K BTU might be enough when parked. Or it might be marginal. But it's got me thinking.If you had a valve ahead of the expansion valve on the main evaporator, a small compressor is all you'd need to run the other three. One from a 3 ton residential condenser assembly would do. Or if you wanted to run the big 10 ton evaporator, a couple of 5 ton units would work. There's literally no limit to the number of possible configurations, just using common parts. It uses 36lbs of r134 so a bit more than could be comfortably stored in a 30lb tank while modding the system but it sure opens up a lot of possibilities. Like, kick on all 3 pumps to draw down the heat (what are we up to now, about seer 15?) and then drop back to the little one to maintain. The weird thing is that it would actually be practical, and not terribly expensive.

Jim

Speaking of work... it took longer to remove the Ikea cabinets than it did to take the seats out. Plus I removed the lavatory waste tank. Photos are the "after" shots, inside and out. What a pile of trash.

I weighed the seat assemblies, 82lbs each. The waste tank was 60lbs and the front panel and grab rail was 26lbs. 55 seats x 41lbs = 2,255 removed there. The lavatory has to be over 250lbs total. So, I've increased my maximum weight capacity at this point to 15,281lbs. Not bad.

Still have the parcel shelves to come down, but that won't figure in the weight. The Inverters however will need to be added as they are an extra. This is more exact than probably justified, but if I maintain precise numbers it will make it easier in the long run.

Jim

" Speaking of work... it took longer to remove the Ikea cabinets"

wow! any Ikea crap I ever removed was CRAP

dave

Ask your retarder questions in a separate topic, so it isn't buried in here.

You'll get better responces, and it will be searchable for those who follow

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

I'll worry about that later on, it'll likely be months before I drive it anyway but thanks for the suggestion. I'll try to keep that in mind. Before I go out with it I want to pour a reinforced slab over the culvert so that I have more room to make the turn. Can't really see that happening before spring.

Jim

Two more posts to this thread and I've come to the end of the stripping, cleaning and assessing stage. Starting at the rear bay, a photo looking forward from the passenger's side shows the 24vDC power distribution panel that was used to feed the inverters. I'll use this and re-route the wires so they are more hidden and allow the evaporator door to open fully.  This bay is 80" deep along the axis of the bus but 29" of that needs to be kept reasonably clear for HVAC access. All bays are 92" wide, 85" between the latch plates and 30" tall under the 4ft wide center duct All doors are 56 x 35" in a 54 x 32" opening.

The center bay, in the next two shots is a clear 58" space with a 2 x 2" conduit across the upper rear corner.

The front bay is 65" deep with panels, ducts and conduits as shown including the downslope of the central channel under the isle.

The last two shots show the interior of the coach with removal and cleanup complete, so that concludes this section. To find the previous posts go here:

https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=33639.105

where you will also find a link to the discussion that lead to all of this.

The project continues in this thread:

https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=33684.new#new

Thanks for your participation, please do not post to this thread as it will bury the links.

Jim

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on December 17, 2018, 01:20:23 PM... photo looking forward from the passenger's side shows the 24vDC power distribution panel that was used to feed the inverters. I'll use this and re-route the wires so they are more hidden ...

      Nice work, Jim.  You're getting along well.  One suggestion, though.  You may want to assess those inverters.  Sometimes, people will put several small, low power, inefficient inverters together "because they were cheap".  And many times this will work out to be penny-wise, pound-foolish.   If this is the case, it might be tempting to use them because they're there and free but often the less-expensive inverters -- especially mod-sine-wave types -- are unreliable, don't give much useful output, and might not handle electronics and other sensitive loads well. 
      I'm not saying that they're bad inverters, but I'd sure check to see type, rated outputs, brand names, etc.  before I depended on them.

Another post that belongs in the "projects" topic.  Somebody needs to pay attention: moderators and posters.

There hasn't been any moderating here since HighTech Redneck gave it over.

Moderating historically meant re-arranging bits and pieces, adjusting the occasional subject line, moving topics to more appropriate parts of the forum.

It meant staying on top of the content, and trying to make information sharing go more smoothly.

When someone helps this along, the posters follow the trend.

When the forum gets ignored, it becomes no easier to find information, or be efficient with your online time, than on social media.

I miss Moderators too...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Quote from: buswarrior on December 18, 2018, 05:19:39 PM
There hasn't been any moderating here since HighTech Redneck gave it over.

Posters can be so inconsiderate. I'm sure its much better over on BNO - easier to keep everything neat and tidy when nobody ever posts anything. 

Quote from: bobofthenorth on December 18, 2018, 06:35:58 PM
Posters can be so inconsiderate. I'm sure its much better over on BNO - easier to keep everything neat and tidy when nobody ever posts anything.

You got that right.

Nothing's like it used to be.

Keep helping where you can?

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

So much for not burying the hyperlinks. Thanks guys.

Not trying to derail Jim's thread, so please post any questions about these sketches in my project thread.

Jim: Wanted to let you know that I've just posted a few pictures of my recent floor plan sketches for our 102DL3 in case you'd like to check them out. It sounds like you and I are on very similar build paths for the near future.  :)

https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=33689