BCM Community

My family has camped for years in travel trailers of all sizes, but I find myself camper-less and would like to go a different route for my next adventure.  I started thinking about purchasing a bus a few months back I when discovered this group and converted buses in general.  As I have been reading and watching YouTube videos, I have been getting more and more certain that purchasing a bus is what I want to do.  I have been able to find many answers on my own, but there are a few questions I would like to ask you all if you don't mind.

First, I have seen some people reference a potential rust problem for Silver Eagle buses.  I figured some of this is true and some of it may be over stated, but I'd like to know more.  I will likely be checking out a 1984 Silver Eagle 10 in the near future, what should I look for?

Second, in reference to the Silver Eagle that I am considering, should I be worried about finding parts?  I have found parts online for Detroit Diesel 6v92 motors, but I have not had much help when searching for torsilastic suspension parts.  It may be that I can't find much because I don't know what I am doing, so I was hoping you all could tell me if future repairs could be an issue.  I checked with a local bus company to see if they could help with repairs if I should need them, and they said they could repair anything as long as they had the part.  The bus shop made it sound like parts would be in short supply.

Is there an older bus make and model that has much more spare parts available?  Prevost or MCI?

Finally, I have not had a lot of luck with financing; but I do have a few options.  Wells Fargo seemed willing to finance an older bus, but the interest rate was really high.  I have also considered a cash out refinance of my home as well.  Do any of you have suggestions as far as financing a older converted bus?

Thanks in advance.

Don't IMHO finance especially with a second or refi on your home. Parts are tough depending on the model.

First, if you are going to need financing to cover the purchase price I'd be very concerned about you having adequate funds to do the necessary repairs and maintenance to get the bus on the road and to keep it there. These beasts are expensive to get going and to keep going. It is not for the faint of heart (or wallet).

I'd strongly advise against using any type of home equity loan to finance a bus (or anything else of depreciating value).

Rust in Eagles? There are a few good threads on this forum about that, and you should read them thoroughly. An Eagle was involved in a serious crash a few years ago and rust was a factor in the severity of the injuries sustained. I believe that there is a thread outlining some of the work to renovate an Eagle to get the rust out. Hopefully someone else will chime in about that.

There are some great older buses out there, all in various states of repair and road worthiness. Keep reading lots about the bus you want, and try and get an experienced bus nut or shop to give you an honest appraisal of the work it's going to need so you can decide if you have an adequate budget.

All that said, I'm glad you've been bitten by the bug and I look forward to reading about whatever you end up doing.

Depends,
WF gave me 2% money, (to buy my bus),my money was making more.
There are a lot of variables and ways to leverage loans.

All 30+ year old buses are tough to get parts for,Eagles are good buses nothing has the curb appeal or ride of a Eagle, rust can be a problem but easy to repair and there are lot of Eagles out there with no rust.LOL you mention Eagle here it is like calling someones sister a bad name

Consider a bus conversion carefully. They can easily become a money pit unless you are fortunate. If finances are sparce, you may want to go to a motorhome as an interim solution before taking the plunge. You can do well if you score a deal on a conversion that previously has been well kept up and maybe owner passed away. Many younger members of family may want to be rid of it cheap, as they have no interest. Also consider bus conversions get, on average, 7 to 8 miles to the gallon realistically. Engine, transmission repairs can be a catastrophe financially. Tires, brakes, suspension, also costly, although once done, usually will last through your ownership. If you have to rely on others to do almost all of your repairs, forget it, unless you win a lottery. If you want a shell to convert, it will be cheaper initially, but much more overall long term.  It also how nice and elaborate you do a conversion yourself.
Watch for many classifieds, narrow down your budget, and make the trips necessary to inspect them. Good luck. Here's one of many sites:

https://www.rvt.com/New-and-Used-Bus-Conversion-RVs-For-Sale-On-RVT.com/results?type=Bus%20Conversions&price1=6000&price2=1168000&distance=Any&private_only=1

You should not fear rust on an Eagle, unless it is severely rusted from being in winter salt for decades. Most sections can be fairly easily replaced. Most brands of buses have corrosion problems whether steel or aluminum is involved. The key thing is cost, and how handy you are with tools and welding. Unless you are comfortably affluent, you had better be handy if you want to cruise in a coach. If you are going to pour time and money into a coach, you had better feel real comfortable with the looks and features of what you choose. Discriminating individuals often choose Eagles, but there are other brands that will do.  ::) The torsilastic suspension tubes for the rear axle are still available from Sulastic Co. in San Antonio, TX (210) 492-4469, for $2250, plus shipping. Or, you could select a Eagle that has plenty of adjustment left, or buy salvage used ones that are still good. (There are two rebuilt used ones for sale in Minneapolis for $200, plus shipping).

Those of us in this hobby usually have some background with trucks & buses, or heavy equipment. We like to customize our coaches, and we do not do it for future profit (because there will not be any). If you want the simple route, you would buy a RV that has book value that the bank can look up, and then take it to Camping World for ripoff maintenance. You just have to hope that the wood inside the walls does not rot, and the staples hold on. Worrying about rust in an Eagle does not compare to the horror of stick & staple RV's in an accident.  ;) There are plenty of good coaches out there for sale that someone else spent a lot of money on - that is the best bargain.

Thank you all for your responses.

I am certainly wary of financing a bus, but it would take time to save enough to purchase one out right.  Finances aren?t sparse, but I also don?t want to save for the next 10 years to travel again.  I have kids a couple years away from graduation that I?d like to take out with me.  I had planned to keep my 37ft travel trailer until my kids were out of school, but a tree decided to use it as a trampoline while we were in the black hills last year..

The costs I am worried about are more of the maintenance type costs.  If I figured $1,000 a year for maintenance costs, would I be close? What do you all spend in yearly maintenance? 

I?m not afraid of taking care of small maintenance tasks myself, but I can?t rebuild an engine or replace a tranny myself.  I?m looking forward to updating the electrical of what ever I get.

I am looking for a bus in the $30,000 range.  I?d like it to be already converted with all parts working.  I?m fine with older or outdated equipment or furnishings, I would update them over time.  I?ve looked at buying a new class C or A, but unless you are willing and able to pay upwards of $80,000; they all are kind of crap..

I know someone selling an already converted eagle for 10k in working order. Just needs new windshields which he has a source for I think $250 each.

I am profiting in no way by mentioning this, just passing along what I've seen from one busnut to another future busnut :)

There are great deals on motorhomes that are used. Many people buy one, travel around us then trade up or sell it. Easier to finance AND insure. We've had many people have issues on insuring bus conversions over the years. Some campgrounds won't take older ones. Consider a bus conversions if you plan on having it several years.
How is your community attitude about having a bus conversions sitting at your house? Several have had issues.

Here is you a rust free Eagle needs a home and a little TLC

www.wheresdoyle.com

If you have not already subscribed to Bus Conversion Magazine, I highly recommend you subscribe and read as many back issues as you can before making any purchase decisions.  There are also some articles about rust and Eagles that you should read so you know what to look for.

But as someone else stated, if you cannot afford to buy a bus, then you probably cannot afford to drive and maintain one as most people should have about $20k in reserve just in case something major goes wrong.   Buses cost a lot of money to repair unless you can do most of the work yourself.

If you do find a good bus be sure it has been running recently because a bus that has sat for 2-3 years may be problematic as seals can dry out and parts can rust up.  Buses like to move so try to find one that was recently in service.  Also look at a lot of buses before deciding as there are lot of buses out there without slides that can be had for very reasonable prices.

Gary

Maintenance costs spread way out on the calendar.

It catches the lower tier commercial operators as well as busnuts.

You have to think about tires every 7-10 years, at $500 apiece. What age are the current tires, and how many are there?

Batteries.... if you know how to take care of 'em, 7-10 years, if you don't, you buy new ones annually or sooner. How badly has previous owner abused the batteries? $100 a piece and up. There may be 2 or 4 to start it, and anywhere 2 to 8 as a house bank...

The commercial peeps disassemble the axles annually for preventive maintenance purposes. New axle seals at the minimum. Nobody does a brake job and then sells the coach, however, the reverse is often true, it needs brakes, cam bushings, air hoses, chambers... How will you know what is serviceable and what is not?

Many DOZENS of grease fittings that need a squirt, previous owner may be negligent here...

Engine, transmission, differential, Eagle drop box... All potential game enders if not chosen correctly.

Suspension, radius rods, shock absorbers, all loose, sloppy, perished, and coach wandering all over the road...

Radiator -  rotten? how old? what condition? Bus radiator rarely under $1000...

Air filter, $100, 7-8 gallons of engine oil, big oil filter, add more oil to an oil burner at every fuel fill up...

If a busnut chooses the wrong coach, and then perpetually chooses the wrong mechanic/shop... you can turn a $20k coach into an $80k nightmare... I know of one just like that... and he can't stop now...

An innocent inexperienced busnut is a huge target, there's almost an unwritten code to get the children out of the jungle.... and the busnut rarely escapes without an empty wallet, and dreams smashed on the floor.

That being said, the choice is: mechanically competent to do all of your own work, or deep pockets to pay others to do the work, often poorly, for you. And you still need to be mechanically competent in order to catch them screwing you, or to speak intelligently beforehand, so they don't bother screwing you, since you fooled 'em into thinking you know the game...

This is a vicious hobby, playing with old, worn out commercial equipment, and needing commercial professional help...
eyes wide open please?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Did we succeed in scaring another wannabee off  :o

A few of the comments have me scared  :o

;D

There are ways to minimize, or at least reduce, costs. For example rather than spending 24-3000 for new tires you can purchase good used tires at a fraction of the cost. I recently bought 4 tires with approx. 30 % tread left but only 2 years old for $100 ea.from a wrecking yard. They will probably age out before wearing out. And there may be a hundred grease points on a bus but a grease gun and 10 years supply of grease is about $20. And a lot of expenses are use related so if you full time thats one thing but if you only vacation a few times a year it's another story. A major  failure can be catastrophic whether you have a motorhome or a bus. It may well be more expensive in a bus but many would not be able to afford a motor rebuild be it in a motorhome OR a bus.
It certainly helps if you are mechanically inclined though, because there will probably ALWAYS be items that crop up that have to be fixed. When I first had my bus the brake lights quite working so I paid a mechanic to fix it because the wiring looked daunting. I'm now QUITE familiar with the wiring system so I do those trouble shooting chores myself. Understanding your bus and how everything works also tends to minimize panic decisions if you have a problem.

Last year I had the bendix governor fail when getting ready to vacate a campground. There was momentary panic because we had to be out by 2PM. But with some help from this forum I was able to determine the problem and fix it well enough to get home.

It also helps to have an understanding wife. Another poster on here had a similar governor problem last year and he said his wife said something to the tune of "get it fixed or get rid of the bus". In my case my wife felt it was just part of the adventure. Thats not to say she wasn't concerned but if there is a problem deal with it..
Some people can take minor problems in stride and other can't. Only you know that.

But owning/converting a bus is NOT for the faint of heart.

Regards

Fred

Quote from: Fred Mc on August 30, 2018, 10:10:53 AM
But owning/converting a bus is NOT for the faint of heart.

Regards

Fred

That moment when you rip out the floor to reveal to revel broken frame members. Good thing I have a welder now lol

Hey, come back! Don't let Clifford or the other curmudgeons scare you off. In most cases, I'm singing the same tune but after long careful consideration in the throne room, you may qualify as a busnut intern. If you have 30k at your disposal, and that may be a stretch since you are asking about financing, you can do this if careful.

These days you can find a quite acceptable converted bus for 15k-20k. That leaves you with 10-15k for immediate and planned repairs and maintenance. Unless you have some mechanical catastrophe, that cushion should be sufficient. That is if you DIY most/all of the work.
Something of a recent personal epiphany was that an old bus is never going to be as reliable as a newer one. Really? Yeah, what a dumbass - I had such delusional thoughts until another visit to the throne. For some reason, I figured if I get the bus all caught up on maintenance and other issues which seemed needing fixing, the bus would be good to go. What shined the bright light of reality was a view of a short video where a guy was painting some valve cover and clearly showed long term normal wear and tear on even solid metal parts takes its toll. The aluminum cover developed small cracks which was the wakeup call that all bus parts after 40-50 years and a million miles have plenty of parts that are weak and prone to fail. So, with that the idea of experiencing less ongoing outlays of time, cash, stress, etc. on maintenance and repair went poof!

The key takeaway is these old road beasts once owned are going to be a permanent line item in your annual personal budget. In fact, some use a benchmark of a dollar a mile but that assumes you drive some number of miles. A parked bus develops maintenance issues from non-use so you have to use it, such a problem. lol  Good luck, just take time and learn a lot before jumping.

LOL Clifford is not taking the blame on this one  :P

haha, no one has scare me away yet.  Plus, someone send me a PM and said that if it all went south I could just blame Clifford..  ;)  ..just kidding

All the posts have given me a lot to think about for sure.  I also spent sometime on the phone talking to Doyle this morning.  I'm trying to process all the information.

It sounds as though many of you know your way around your respective buses.  What was it like for you when you first purchased your bus?

When I first bought my bus I was confused why it all of the sudden wouldn't start after parking our first night at a Walmart. It wasn't in Neutral! I knew almost nothing! I've come a long way since then with the help of this board and the owners/shop manuals. YouTube videos also help quite a bit when something goes wrong.

I'm not rich so I try to do as much of the maintenance and repairs to my bus as possible. I wouldn't be able to afford a bus if I couldn't do most of the work myself. I don't drive more than 5k miles a year and I've been lucky these last 3 years with few problems. A few months ago coolant started leaking out of my engine which requires opening it up which then quickly leads to a rebuild or overhaul while the engine is apart.

I love our bus and it's the perfect home for us. To me, its like a mobile home. RVs are a little easier to move around all the time. They tend to be higher off the ground than buses which makes it easier to go "off-road" and boondock. Coach buses really need to stay on asphalt most of the time (campgrounds are fine).

AHHHH  it ain't all that bad! Whould I do another from scratch? F***k no! Find one already done close to your liking, just inspect all the running gear and potential rust issues first before you buy. There is more but I won't hog all the fun in tellin' ya!  ;D

BEST-O-LUCK

Quote from: mmanning on August 29, 2018, 06:44:57 PM
The costs I am worried about are more of the maintenance type costs.  If I figured $1,000 a year for maintenance costs, would I be close? What do you all spend in yearly maintenance? 

If you only change oil and filter, grease fittings, replace belts, service air dryer, change air filter, fuel filters, and update batteries, then you might squeak in under a thousand. If you need a brake job, oil seals, power steering pump, air compressor, new tires, a tune up, etc., then things will climb. However, there are coaches out there for sale that are already converted that someone else spent time and money on, that will carry you for many miles without the big expenses. Face it, (without Facebook) you already have the bug for coaches, you see the folly of RV's, (a bus would have held the tree limb up) and there is no going back - you are an infected busnut!  ;D

If you do jump in,  try to do a lot of the work to keep it working yourself, you'll be way ahead in the long run and there will be work. Be prepared to learn on the fly on the house systems. Most can't afford to take to someone and if you do, most shops ain't got a clue. On The running gear, I don't do a thing on the major goodies on mine. Blower seals last year on my 8V92TA was around $6000 bucks at Stewart Stevenson San Antonio  Shop. Just got my OTR (AC System) running after Prevost Houston quoted me around $20,000 to redo it. Yes 20 G's.  Cliff said they just didn't want to work on this old iron.  ;D Redone it for less than a $1000. These aren't for the faint of heart. Good luck on your search.

Yep you go into a shop now the people are wearing white shirts with a gimzo in their pocket they take it out put their hand panties on so they don't get their hands dirty plug it in  this the future shops hate working on the older stuff,plus some shops are at $175.00+ per hour that is a killer when you break down on the road 

That is another significant factor - increasing number of shops refuse to work on the old buses. One mechanic takes on work depending on his frustration level and number of buses in the shop needing parts. He was the one who correctly told me that one does not repair rather than restore these old things.

It really is true as no mechanic can often not provide an accurate time or cost estimate. Often times parts are not a call away and can take real effort to track down. The customer surely is not going to pay labor rates to track down parts; i.e. shop takes it in the shorts. Often when getting into these old things, there is more needing fixing beyond the original problem. The customer is not happy that it is going to take longer and cost more; shop gets @$# chewed. Bus is waiting to get parts. Customer is not happy bus is not ready to roll; shop is not happy with buses stacking up in the yard.

Wow - was there any scenario where customer and shop mechanic came out happy? Such is the life of busnuts, service folk and customers.

That is another problem shops do not like to chase parts for the old buses and they leave it up to the owner.Sometimes that is a big mistake btdt owners are on limited budgets they will shop for weeks not caring that your shop is tied up with their bus.Setting there running the AC 24 hours a day on your dime those owners I don't care for,then some say get it done those I like  8)

From the beginning I had a plan to deal with the problem of finding a shop to work on our bus, and it's worked till now. Before I even put a deposit on our first bus, I went and met with the service manager at the shop where I wanted to have work done. We talked about the issues with parts, scheduling, etc. and I made it clear to them that I'd be willing to work with them to make it as easy as possible for them, whether it be chasing down parts or scheduling when they had open bays. They've been great to work with. Building a relationship with the shop that works out for both you and the shop is critical. There were a few bumps in the road early on - they tried to find parts through their usual supply chain and were getting frustrated. I reminded them about Luke at US Coach, and once they realized that he had (or could find) most of what would be needed things got much better. Kudos to Interstate for all their efforts and hard work.

Of course, as Ray & Tom would always say, a box of freshly baked cookies at the right time helps a lot.

We're on our second bus now, and I've actually got two shops qualified and willing to work on it. I think it was easier with our current bus since it is a low-mileage bus and according to the shop in better condition than some of the commercial buses they work on. Apparently buses run commercially through the winter up here don't fare so well. Lakeside International in Milwaukee is our second shop and they've been great to work with as well.

So, back to MManning the OP... If you are going to be taking your new bus to a shop to have work done, the time to start building that relationship is now. You'll get quite a bit of information from them which can help you make your decision moving forward. If they have experience working on Eagle buses and have a good parts supply, then you're set. Otherwise, you'll know that you might need to adjust your target bus or perhaps look at other shops. Once you find the right shop they may be able to help you find a bus to start with. (Like the old Eagle parked behind Interstate here for years - not sure if it's got a mechanics lien on it or if it was just abandoned.)

Richard's coach conversion is a good example. Purchased as in great shape and low mileage. So far he has had furnace issues?, water circulating pump issues, Onboard factory ac issues. I may have missed some. I don't know how much he has spent to date for repairs, but the point is...no matter how good a coach conversion or shell is, you are going to have unanticipated expenses, so make sure you have money for these things in reserve. Being aware up front can avoid some of the disappointment.

I think you missed the ever-present slow leaks in the air system and two leveling valves. Most other problems were due to lack of use in my case. Machinery generally likes to be used and problems will crop up from sitting idle. Lots of small electrical issues from corrosion on the terminals from 44 years of exposure to ambient air moisture. Lots of deferred maintenance, including on the Perkins running the generator. (Still have a few things there, like slow fuel drips from the gaskets on the fuel injector pump...)

Given the choice between problems from lack of use vs. being worn out, I'll take the lack of use issues any day. However, they are still time-consuming and sometimes expensive. We decided to spend the money up front on this coach to get one in good condition all around. More money to purchase, but less to get repairs done. The first one was much less expensive to purchase, but we spent quite a bit getting it up to a level where we felt safe going down the road. Oddly, both coaches ended up costing us about the same but we're much happier with our current coach.

Quote from: chessie4905 on August 31, 2018, 05:38:34 AM
Richard's coach conversion is a good example. Purchased as in great shape and low mileage. So far he has had furnace issues?, water circulating pump issues, Onboard factory ac issues. I may have missed some. I don't know how much he has spent to date for repairs, but the point is...no matter how good a coach conversion or shell is, you are going to have unanticipated expenses, so make sure you have money for these things in reserve. Being aware up front can avoid some of the disappointment.

Those items are things most bus nuts do their self and never involve a job,you start popping 30+ grand for a engine at Interstate like some I know of that will get your attention or 12k for transmission ,7k for brakes if you can find the parts it going to happen if you own a old bus without knowing the history, then it is still a crap shoot 

Hi mmaning, good luck with your search. I got a good deal with my second bus, a company with a good reputation for maintainance, in a mild climate, only surface rust, most everything was functional.
But it had 650K miles. Just replaced airbag springs MCI had them, about $175 each X6, they we're all nearly like bald tires with thread showing. So the good news about good maintaince is most things last longer, but those mechanics and their accumulated knowledge about your specific coach aren't there with you. If your lucky enough to get a new shell to conversion bus, with 100K miles, you get breathing room few others experience. lvmci...

When  I first purchased my bus?  Well, "How do I drive this thing?" ...  I watched a ton of youtube videos on RV driving, covering swing out, blowing a tire,  mirror setup, how to take right and left hand turns (On the right hand, when you feel like your hip is past the corner, make the turn).

Got it home.... now what?  I bought a shell, and the  PO didn't know too much  other than how to start and drive it and "We put rotella in " truth is, I think they used multiweight, but I digress.  So I dug into it, opened every panel, every thing that could be opened up and crawled into  I did.   

Then we tore out what hadn't already been removed (vinyl floor and seat rails mostly) then got to planning the layouts.  We laid down with tape many configurations, taking into account where the bath and shower would be and where bays would be for holding tanks, etc.   Within 2 months of owning it, we took a "Tin Can Tent" trip with it, and it was a blast.  We've tried to keep using it as we've built and found it to be essential to the build.  It's prototyping and testing things before they are finished up and set in stone.

We've had some harrowing experiences, stuck ont he side of the road for 3 hours in SD because of a fragile cracked 35 year old wire for one, but hey, you find it, you fix it.  I keep the manuals on a tablet computer with me  and some tools, not enough, but I'm getting there.  And of course my wife, who bless her heart, is pretty much the most supportive copilot a fella could ask for.

I'll take a moment to reflect on other nuts here, particularly Gumpy (where ya been BTW?) who recommended I buy a ready made coach.  We are a family of 6, and wanting dedicated sleeping quarters for the kiddos, not doing the sofa and dinette shuffle every night.  Which meant a sort of entertainer / rv hybrid.    I still waffle back and forth, would it have been better tp buy something done and remodeled it?   Well, maybe.   I still honestly don't know.   I'm a bit of a tech nerd, so I kitted mine out with 2.5kw of solar (added more if anyone has followed me), nice hybrid inverters working together, plus plenty of other tech goodies.  It truly is a second home for us, and I favored buying the stuff I wanted new vs dealing with decisions made in the 90s, I mean no offence of course. 

We bought our shell very reasonable, but I knew going it it was a potential liability.   We did it with 2 things in mind. 1, we'd like to try and cash flow it, not having $30-40k on hand.   2. Our kids were getting older, my dad has passed away that fall and I was (and still am in many ways) in the mindset of "We're not promised tomorrow, I'd rather enjoy the time I have with my kids now, see the country now, vs wait until the timing is perfect and have missed it" .   In the end we did end up doing a partial cash out refi on our home as well.  It wasn't just for the bus, we had bought at the very bottom of the market in 2011, had 60% equity, maybe pulled 30% out, got a better rate and paid for a needed kitchen remodel as well.   

As Wulf Ward wrote in one of his many articles for BCM, who has converted a few coaches himself in his spare time, many buses costs the same in the long run.  If you buy a bus for $10-$20k you may spend $50k bringing it up to par before you even start the conversion whereas if you buy a $40K bus in better condition you may spend $10-$20K to bring it up to ready condition before the conversion. 

As noted before, buying an already converted coach is a better bang for the buck now-a-days as many people would say, but it may be worth spending more on a good running bus that only needs a little work to bring it up to road-worthiness than buying an older poorly maintained bus.  It is always better to buy a currently running bus because you know most things should be fine on it rather than one that has been sitting in a field for some time.  Also, buses without slides are a great deal now because most people with significant others, love those slides whereas many people on here, would not own a bus with a slide due to their bad reputation of getting stuck out at the worst time and the leaks that eventually occur which can cost a LOT to repair.

But of course, all this depends if you have all of the proper tools and equipment already, a good place to do the work on it without the neighbors complaining, and you can do all of the work yourself.  But then again, if it takes you a year of labor to get a bus ready for the road, it will be one less year you can enjoy it.  But on the other hand, if you build your own bus from scratch, if something stops working, you will know exactly where to look and there is a great feeling knowing you can fix almost everything in a bus you built yourself.

The other alternative which our Moderator Phil Lyons chose is to buy a good working bus and tear out the entire interior and build it the way you want it.  That way many of the expensive items such as generator, inverters, batteries, tanks, tow package, etc. etc. are already there and it is just a matter of rearranging the interior to your liking.  Something to consider.  Check here for a video of Phil's bus in process of being renovated. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT75sOHG51c.


Just my 2-cents worth.

I hate the term a bus is a "hobby" it is a friggn job and a expensive to keep one going.lol mine set in the shop and cost me $450.00 for batteries yesterday  >:(

Quote from: luvrbus on August 31, 2018, 09:51:48 AM
I hate the term a bus is a "hobby" it is a friggn job and a expensive to keep one going.lol mine set in the shop and cost me $450.00 for batteries yesterday  >:(

Yes, but for you Cliff, that is an hours pay. It takes me all month to save up that much money.  Everything is relative.  ;D

$450????????

It seems like anything related to the bus has 4 digits in it. That won't buy one house battery.

I'm getting to hate going into the bus garage. As time marches on I can literally hear the coins falling to the pit. They represent how the damn bus costs money just sitting there. Tires, batteries, insurance, depreciation, air bags, etc.

The $450 was for 2 8-d starting batteries cheapest ones I could find with any type warranty

Chump change. Just replace a couple air compressor governors.lol

Quote from: luvrbus on August 31, 2018, 12:35:48 PM
The $450 was for 2 8-d starting batteries cheapest ones I could find with any type warranty

Heck Cliff. I will sell you two 8D batteries for only $250 without any warranty and will save you $200.  When do you want them delivered?  ;)

Good discussion but something that nobody has touched on yet is the newer wide body bus. Going from a 96" to a 102" width gives you another 6" of inside width and while that doesn't sound like much, just stand in the pass-through to the bedroom and imagine how it would feel to have that extra elbow room. It can be the difference between slides and no slides. Rarely will you find a 102" conversion for sale for less than say, $30K or so, which can take it out of reach, but occasionally they do show up.

Now along the same lines, I found a webpage that listed turning radii for a wide range of bus makes and models, don't ask where I have no idea. It might have been an MCI page. Anyway the most interesting thing about it was that practically all buses from the new ones going back for decades to some of the very early ones have a radius in the range of about 45-50ft and the surprising thing was that the older ones took more room than the new ones. In fact it seems the 45 ft 102's by and large are the sharpest turning ones of the bunch, making them possibly the most maneuverable. I'd love to hear some feedback on this from you old time drivers who have herded most of these down the highway. It's hard to justify the search for a 35' bus when it takes more room to turn it than a 45.

Major decisions like this are often made on a big stack of minor issues, some larger than others. So to the above we can add the driveline, the suspension, and a good number of other things as well. For example from what I've seen, 1994 appears to be a particularly good year for MCI. You get the 4 stroke engine without the full blown electronics package. You get the good automatic. The chassis is well proven by that year. Self leveling and kneeling were common. Lots of 102DL3's made that year and a lesser number of D3's. Now 25 years old, used buses are hitting the market for under $10K in pretty good condition. Now that's not converted of course but there are a lot less 102's converted than earlier buses, meaning that if you do want the 102 the time lag finding the ideal converted coach may take a large fraction of the time required to convert the basic shell. And as was mentioned, there are advantages to being the builder.

I find myself in a rather odd position. The wife likes the Sprinter class B+ S&S. (I'm currently insisting that she will have to prove that she is willing to drive it) I on the other hand have a fairly extensive workshop, much of which would be very nice to have when on the road, so recently I've been playing with the idea of outfitting a DL3 as a mobile workshop. Let the wife have whatever she wants. I'm starting to think a specialized layout may be the way I should go.  In this case the ideal starting point would still be a converted or partially converted bus with most or all systems in place, but with a stripped or gutted interior. But if it takes $10-20K to have that over a shell it starts to make a lot more sense to just start with the shell. After all, while those component costs do add up, what do you suppose is the 2nd hand value of all those bits as they come in the used conversion?

Also the parts you install do not absolutely have to be new. Units such as inverters, gensets, and water heaters are available as salvage and can serve the purpose equally well or better than what comes with the conversion. A little effort is needed to find them but I dare say many on this forum know where to look. The time required is still very much a factor of course.

Jim

Some background on my experience in buying a used motorhome that was never used in commercial service.
I bought a 27 year old factory built motorhome (a 1987 Newell) with less than 150k miles. It is a 102 wide coach, no slides, 8V92t, 740 Allison, 12.5K diesel generator. (The interior color scheme looks best at night with the lights off.  :P)
It was well maintained, even had fresh brakes with top of the line components used. Suspension is tight & no play in steering.

Here are some of the costs I have enjoyed in the 3+ years I have owned it.

Costs to keep & maintain -
8 tires at $500 ea every 8 years = $500 per year.
Oil changes
lights & lenses
fan belts
hoses
batteries - 4 ea 8-D @ $250 ea


Then there are the (hopefully) once in ownership costs -
I just replaced all 12 airbags on mine ( as pm due to age ) @ $2500
Replaced drive axle studs & all 80 lug nuts @ $500
Ride height valves @100
Shock absorbers (8 at $250) $2000
Water heater $500
Stone Bennett shifter repair $400
Battery cable & disconnect replacement $1000
Air throttle replacement $600
King cruise control $500
Roof A/C $700 x 2
Fridge $1000 to $2500
New front wheel spindle, bearings & kingpin kit $2000

So, with me starting with a good low mileage coach, I have been spending close to $4k per year.

These aren't for the feint of heart or shallow pockets.

If you are going to eat like an elephant, you better expect to $#!t like one !!!

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on August 31, 2018, 05:09:41 PM
I'd love to hear some feedback on this from you old time drivers who have herded most of these down the highway. It's hard to justify the search for a 35' bus when it takes more room to turn it than a 45.
Jim

For comparison, per www.coachinfo.com:

GM 4106 is 35ft w/turning radius of 42 ft.
GM 4108 is 35ft w/turning radius of 44 ft.
GM 4501 (Scenicruiser) is 40ft w/turning radius of 45ft.

MCI MC-5 is 35ft w/turning radius of 46ft.
MCI MC-6 is 40ft w/turning radius of 47ft.
MCI MC-9 is 40ft w/turning radius of 51ft.
MCI MC-96A3 is 40ft w/turning radius of 43ft.
MCI MC-102A3 is 40ft (102" wide) w/turning radius of 44ft.

Our GM 4106 was quite nimble. Surprisingly so. Almost as good with our 4108. You can do about as well with some of the 102" wide MCI coaches as well.

Yup, i always said our 5A needed 2 acres to get turned around......but on the other hand just try to stuff a 40 or 45 ft. bus in a 35ft. space!  ;D

Those numbers were when the bus rolled off the line 30 years later the old girls don't make that turning radius anymore ,I've seen 35 ft buses MCI's and GM's that couldn't make it around a 60 ft cul-de-sac the first try 

The owners of the 4905 GM are the ones I tip my hat too, driving a 4905 without taking out every thing in it's path take skill. LOL my gate is 20ft wide and a 4905 has taken it out twice.Back to the programing my DL3 45 ft is a lot easier to get into a tight spot than my 40 ft Eagle or MCI 8 was, just watch the tail swing on the DL3 and it will fit   

Quote from: luvrbus on August 31, 2018, 07:12:05 PM
Those numbers were when the bus rolled off the line 30 years later the old girls don't make that turning radius anymore ,I've seen 35 ft buses MCI's and GM's that couldn't make it around a 60 ft cul-de-sac the first try

How would age affect the turning radius?

For a GM 4106 to make a complete U-turn would take a cul-de-sac with a diameter of 84 ft. (twice the 42 ft radius).

You are measuring from the the center not the beginning and the outside of the cul-de-sac .60 ft cul-de -sac were designed for school buses to make a loop you see those long school buses making that loop without problems here,if they started in the center then it would be a problem 

School buses have a much tighter turning radius, whether measured curb-to-curb or wall-to-wall. They were designed to be maneuverable in tight quarters, where most of our coaches were designed for the open road. That's why most school buses have so much overhang in the rear.

A GM 4106 as configured by GM and with the wheels turned all the way to one side should be able to make a circle that is approximately 84 ft in diameter.

84 feet? That's more than 8 LANE wide road...

It'll u-turn in less than that...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

Cul-de-sac are not a complete circle they are 2/3 or less ,the fad in AZ now is all the dumb rounde ,rounds to control traffic those are tiny because it has 4 exits I doubt a bus could make the complete circle on one   

Quote from: luvrbus on September 01, 2018, 06:46:22 AM
Cul-de-sac are not a complete circle they are 2/3 or less ,the fad in AZ now is all the dumb rounde ,rounds to control traffic those are tiny because it has 4 exits I doubt a bus could make the complete circle on one   

I've got no fewer than half a dozen of these tiny roundabouts on the route to our house from the freeway. They've become all the rage out here, despite most people having no idea how to maneuver through them. I have absolutely no problem going all the way around in our 4108, although at times I've got to cross the lane marker to get around on the smallest of them.

According to the measuring tool on Google Maps, the smallest roundabout in our local area is about 75 feet radius, or 150 diameter. I'd have guessed much smaller based on how they look when driving through them.

Cul-de-sac design in Wisconsin (according the WiDOT) should have a radius of between 45-60ft (that's a diameter of 90-12ft.) That should make it possible for nearly all of our coaches to maneuver through one, if there are no other vehicles present and if the driver has the skills to do so. I'm sure other places have similar standards.

I am just saying the old axle mounted Sheppard power steering on a GM gets sloppy and the turning radius goes south in a hurry it never was that great to begin with  IMO ,every so often I can find a wreck 96a MCi with the Ross axle mounted steering GM owners hold a lottery to see who gets its

Bus ownership. Well got my OTR AC up and running on my 91 XL and went to take it down to get inspected. It's been hot here in Central Texas and Turned back up camera on. No juice to 12 volt systems in coach including water pumps and dash goodies. Hope you buy one as the fun never stops and want everyone to enjoy the work. As soon as I get 12 volt up and running it's off the Prevost Houston for a Level 3 check up and oil change and another $1400 bucks, that's if they don't find anything else wrong. The fun never ends. Yes Cliff/Luvrbus  this has got to be a Hobby as I wouldn't do it for anything else.   8)

The buses I am tempted to check out either have a 8v71, 8v92, or 6v92 (i think I got that right).  What is it like to drive each?

Given the same stretch of road what would each drive like?  For instance, what would each be like on the interstate, each be like driving through bluffs similar to those found in south west Wisconsin, or each going up and over mountains?

Mike

Also, the conversation about turning in a cul-de-sac made me think of Austin Powers...  Anyone else? 

https://youtu.be/IGiQOCX9UbM

Quote from: mmanning on September 01, 2018, 07:47:22 PM
The buses I am tempted to check out either have a 8v71, 8v92, or 6v92 (i think I got that right).  What is it like to drive each?
Mike

Also, the conversation about turning in a cul-de-sac made me think of Austin Powers...  Anyone else? 

Both of my GM buses have had the 8V71. Our first was mated to a V730 automatic and our current to a 4-speed manual. Main thing about these 2-strokes to me is that they sound like a bus is supposed to sound. Beyond that, they are good solid engines which have absolutely no computers or electronics.

Not big on power, but we've never had trouble keeping 65mph on the freeway. Our current bus can do over 70 easily on the flats, but it just doesn't seem like a good idea. Add a hill to the situation and things can get slower, a mountain and you've got time to walk to the back and make a sandwich.

We went from Milwaukee to Gillette WY this summer, and for the most part we had no problems.  I found that if I kept the speed up to about 65 the uphills were not as big a problem. If I let the speed drop closer to 55 the engine lugged a bit halfway up the bigger hills and I needed to downshift. According to www.flattestroute.com the area between La Crosse and the first rest stop in Minnesota actually had the steepest grades of the entire trip. Had to drop to third a few times climbing up from the river but nothing too bad. Same thing crossing the Missouri River in SD. My only no-go situation to date has been getting up from the falls in Sioux Falls when I had to stop at a stop sign at the top of a way-too-steep incline and couldn't get started again without burning the clutch.

I wouldn't let any of these 2-strokes scare you away from a bus. They served entire fleets of buses for decades. For the most part, parts and qualified mechanics are available. I've heard people talk about problems with parts, but to date there has been nothing we needed that wasn't available on either bus.

That video...could have been me trying to turn our bus around in our back lot the first time I brought it home. Thanks for the link.

The 8V92TA  and 755CR Allison Trans in mine runs like your car does on take off. Plenty of power. Have pulled/towed a F150 Super Crew Ford 4x4 and did it well.  Pull a smaller MKX SUV now and you don't even know it's back there. Most of our running is in the flat land of Texas but think it would pull the hills good also but would have to watch the heat if pulling a large vehicle.

World of difference the 6v92 is good little engine it makes the same power as a 8v71 with about the same cubic inches,then the 4 stroke 4 cylinder series 50 makes  as much power with better torque with less fuel usage with electronics.
The 8v82 will make as much power as you want but it comes at a price with fuel usage and heat,the 2 strokes are good engines but have a short life span compered to the newer 4 strokes if you are lucky you can squeeze 3 to 400,000 miles from one.Chasing down the 40w oil is getting to be tough and the 2 strokes will always use some oil plus, the 40W will cost more money than the 15/40 used in the 4 strokes about 10 bucks a gal more unless you find a sale.If you can find a bus with a 4 stroke engine they are more forgiving than a 2 stroke and cheaper to operate,and I am a 2 stroke guy but they are not cheap to keep going lol I have 3 in the shop now waiting to be rebuilt.MTU is dropping support on the 2 strokes in 2 years then parts are going to be even more expensive than they are now  good luck on your journey   

With your budget you correctly identified a two stroke as your likely power plant. As the 8V92 is the top of the power ratings, the 6V71 is on the low end. Personally, it would not be a motor I chose. The 8V71 is the most likely to be in a bus in your price range. Buses with 8V92 are found in the last range of years before four strokes came on big around 1995.

There is a turbo option found on some 8V71s. The normally aspirated version is 8V71N while the turbo is 8V71T. It does have more power particularly at high altitude. Far fewer of the turbos are around but you may get lucky.

Even though a Series 50 is a four stroke, it just seems the production numbers are quite small compared to the Series 60, so parts may be more difficult to find in inventory. Not owning a Series 50 but suspect just about any counter has Series 60 parts readily available.
What you need/wish you had while driving depends mostly on terrain. Some here live and tour areas where terrain is rather mild. Out here west, you will absolutely know the hills are there in anything less than a Series 60 (500hp) engine. Between the Rockies and Sierra Nevada ranges, tales can be swapped all day which route is tougher to get over. There won't be any disagreement you'll be in first or second on some section of those routes.

So far, it hasn't turned into a major issue for me. I count the hours spent grinding up and divide over the entire hour meter and is really a very small part one spends in that mode. I can live with it and enjoy dodging and being part of the pack of semis doing the same crawl; that is the older ones. In fact, since you have so little power and momentum, maneuvering the slow lane traffic is actually a real challenge. Sometimes, you can just enjoy the scenery but other times it's like being on the central expressway at rush hour.

Yep the right lane was built for a 8v71,I see older buses powered by 8v71's going up the grade from Laughlin to Kingman a 11 mile 6% grade just climbing away at 10 mph but all the owners have a smile and eating lunch   

We drove Courier 96 buses, and MC1s and 2s with 4-71s. Now that was slow. Only we didn't know it... Then we got 8V71s in the MC5s and MC7s. We thought they were pretty hot. Especially in the lighter MC5s.

So what's wrong with going up a hill in the slow lane with the loaded semis?

Fastest bus I ever drove was a 1995 D3 with a pre EGR 12.7L Series 60 with the 7 speed manual. It would go up in the fast lane with the cars. And that is loaded with the hockey team and their gear. Even the new cars with Volvos (Prevost) and Cummins ISX (MCI) aren't that fast.

JC

There is no problem with a older, smaller engine. Just leave a bit earlier.  ;D

Unfortunately with a slow bus, once you are in the granny gear lane, you are stuck there till the top of the hill.  The other problem is getting onto a freeway from a get-on ramp on a bit of a hill, you have to wait for a BIG hole in traffic before pulling out.  Also be sure your hazard lights work because I think it is anything under 35MPH you are supposed to have them on, on the freeway unless that has changed. Of course for a 4 cylinder motor, you may want a slow moving triangle on the back of your bus like the Amish use.  :D

I would never do it again, since I bought it in 2005 and was working full time and just retired we have only really used it maybe a dozen time the most recent to South Carolina when the OTR crapped out in New Jersey after the Prevost service center claimed they fixed it. After dealing with them on the failed OTR, they did do other work too the bill went from $6700.00 to $5300.00. Not happy but they are large vehicles and costly to repair. Buy a used one or just go the fifth wheel route. When you are dealing with 30 to 40 year old buses they cost a lot and to insure them is getting very hard as no body wants to insure a self made conversion. Good Luck !!!

If you can't do 95% of your own repairs, forget it. Even then you are venerable when you have a breakdown on the road. Buy a RV motorhome instead. Anybody can fix them, they are pretty reliable, repairs are much cheaper than we enjoy. Enjoy the trip without service and repair issues. Much easier to finance, sell or trade up. We have one because we do our own work, very familiar with all the systems on the coach, otherwise it would be unafordable

the newer 4 strokes if you are lucky you can squeeze 3 to 400,000 miles from one.

The problem with this logic is that the revenue service operators know this too.
You can bet they have squeezed the goodness out of them.
In this case, the 2 strokes are cheaper to overhaul.

Quote from: eagle19952 on September 02, 2018, 06:49:04 PM
the newer 4 strokes if you are lucky you can squeeze 3 to 400,000 miles from one.

The problem with this logic is that the revenue service operators know this too.
You can bet they have squeezed the goodness out of them.
In this case, the 2 strokes are cheaper to overhaul.

I must of not been real clear on the post  the 2 strokes you are lucky to squeeze  3 to 400,000 miles from one ,the 4 strokes the operators start dumping those around 750,000 to 900,000 miles just before all hell breaks loose.The series 60 and and the 8v92 are about the same in price to rebuild now,so price wise the series 60 is cheaper in the long run because the life is more than double of a 8v92,8v71 or 6v92 

   

QuoteSo what's wrong with going up a hill in the slow lane with the loaded semis?

It is simply no fun at least to me. I find the constant jockeying makes me on high alert. If there are only two lanes, god forbid a truck only slightly faster than the slow one in front decides to try to overtake it by going into lane 1, thereby pissing off all the cars now stuck behind a semi blockade going a bit faster than a jog. Even worse is when I finally am done slogging along and then do the same thing. Then trying to get back to the slow lane can be a PIA depending on what is stacked in front of that slow one. You old hands with thousands of hours in these conditions just chat and sip tea on these stretches. When it gets jammed up, there seemingly is a lot of stupid stuff going on that makes me nervous.

QuoteIf you can't do 95% of your own repairs, forget it.

Generally agree that a busnut should planning getting hands very dirty and doing a lot of self-education; otherwise it is a fatal mistake.
95% seems a bit high. There are numerous other components that might require specialized skills. For example, digging into an inverter may be more than most can deal with. Generators and Webasto systems are other items a busnut might farm out service.

Doing an engine rebuild costs a lot, no matter how it's done. Not sure 9 of 10 busnuts are prepared or have the capacity to take on such a project.

And Clifford is right that most of the used Series 60 coming to market that are managed by fleet managers have a major (i.e. expensive) repair(s) are on the horizon. That said, as long as you are a smart buyer, there must be coaches that are coming to market for other reasons and may check out well. They are all gambles.

Hill climbing is a situation that disregards any attempts at common sense or logic. I agree with everyone, from the owner of an underpowered coach that needs to be in the slow lane at 10 MPH and with the guy that has over 500 HP and that can keep up with the cars. Actually the slow coach might be the best coach.

When I am confronted with a steep long climb I am either going to be able to climb it at my speed which means I will be able to pass most of the trucks in the slow lane and the fast lane will be open when I need it (a very rare event), or I am going to be at the mercy of the two slow trucks along side of one another with the one in the fast lane going less than 1 MPH faster than the slow one.

The folks with the slow vehicles never feel the frustration of hill climbing because they know to just stay in the slow lane, relax and enjoy the ride. Folks with a lot of HP that are not willing to just relax and go with the flow go insane knowing they can go faster, but can't unless they are willing to push the guy ahead of them.

Having more power than is required to do almost all of the travel is over rated. Yes it is nice to have, but we don't have schedules so why do we need to climb hills fast when most of the time we cannot anyway?

The good thing about engine rebuilds is that as long as you haven't spun a main bearing, what with removable liners the rebuild can be done in-chassis. A simple engine hoist can deal with the head. What would concern me more would be the transmission. Unless you have a forklift handy that's going to be a struggle, and even then you need a way to jack up the rear of the bus.

Jim

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on September 03, 2018, 05:58:19 AM
The good thing about engine rebuilds is that as long as you haven't spun a main bearing, what with removable liners the rebuild can be done in-chassis. A simple engine hoist can deal with the head. What would concern me more would be the transmission. Unless you have a forklift handy that's going to be a struggle, and even then you need a way to jack up the rear of the bus.

Jim

Inframes rebuilds are like patch to squeeze a few more miles from a engine sooner or later it has to be pulled and done right with a out frame complete re-con JMO
 

Engine rebuilds:
Nowadays we are paying so little for a used bus, that leaves a lot of room in the budget for a rebuild. Say you pay $50,000 for a nice converted bus that cost $2 to $500,000 a few years ago, and one day have to rebuild the engine for $6 to $10,000 (if you do it yourself), or $20,000 in a shop, you're still way ahead. You got to pay to play...

Hill climbs:
I don't see what the big deal is. You climb the hill at whatever speed is adequate for your rig. When you catch up to a slower vehicle, you either slow down and stay behind it, or pass it if you can, and merge back in when possible. If they are cars or semis stacked up behind you, so what, it is their problem. The truckers never hesitate to pull out in front of you when they want to pass. You have to get in the game and do it too. You can do it without being rude. Or stay behind the slow truck in the right lane and don't worry about it...

JC

Yep I took my tractor to Texas and back towing 12,000 lbs with the trailer behind the Trek I saw a lot of the right hand lane with a 6.5 Chevy diesel with 190 hp and 500 ft lbs of torque only added 3 hours to the round trip and fuel was almost the same a little off I averaged 10.1 mpg taking my time 

Agree with JC besides when we are on a hill it give me a chance to go back and take a nap or make a sandwich.

I'll chime in here, I think somewhere down the line someone mentioned either running 65 or 45-50 on the hills.  I've noticed exactly this.  Pulling any grade, even a headwind at 50-55 or 60-ish is nearly impossible without lugging on my 6v92 .  I was just telling me neighbor, if it's cooler out, I'll run down the hill touching 70-71 and keep it close to 65-63 by the time we crest the top keeping the momentum up and still not getting into more than 6-7lbs boost. 

Out west I got stuck in a cycle of hills, where if you get caught, you're running in 3rd gear for a while, by the time you hit the top even in 3rd, temps are getting up there, so you need to run higher RPMs going down to cool for the next climb.   I think eventually we pulled over at a rest stop to stretch the legs, then I got on the cycle more at 65 and we were good to go.   

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

A "quote"from my friend Dave Galey buses come into the world making revenue for manufactures, operators and converters, then they leave doing the same making revenue for parts suppliers,mechanic's and shops, then for the scrap yards :)

Quote from: luvrbus on September 03, 2018, 06:37:13 AM


Inframes rebuilds are like patch to squeeze a few more miles from a engine sooner or later it has to be pulled and done right with a out frame complete re-con JMO

I'm honestly not sure why that would be. Yes, I agree the head work has to be damn near perfect, but as for the block, what part of it does not have replaceable parts that can't be just swapped out? (especially the 60 series) Everything removable, including the the liners, pistons, rods, crank, main bearings, all accessories and even the bull gear are replaceable with new parts. So what am I missing here that has to be done to the block, requiring it to be removed from the chassis for a "proper" rebuild?

Jim

99 % of the time a series 60 will require block work like on the deck and the center bores,then you have gaskets and seals the engine needs to be out to replace,the lower end doesn't give much trouble those things can go a million miles on a set of bearings unless they are run low of oil.DD has 3 levels of rebuild on the series 60 

Then the bull gear lets go after a rebuild....

I'm a low hour guy so forgive my ignorance. My coach 8V71 never picks up speed once on a fairly steep incline. Every 1 MPG  lost for whatever reason is lost until over the crest. The driver/mechanic I got the bus from told me when you see a hill coming up, mash the pedal and keep it there, period. Been good advice so far, just need to watch the temp creep on some of them long grades. Always make it sooner or later. lol

Quote from: windtrader on September 03, 2018, 07:40:24 PM
I'm a low hour guy so forgive my ignorance. My coach 8V71 never picks up speed once on a fairly steep incline. Every 1 MPG  lost for whatever reason is lost until over the crest. The driver/mechanic I got the bus from told me when you see a hill coming up, mash the pedal and keep it there, period. Been good advice so far, just need to watch the temp creep on some of them long grades. Always make it sooner or later. lol

Nope when you push the peddle and you don't pickup speed you are lugging the engine, catch you another gear or you will pay later like the old Fram filter commercial ,that is bad advice Don   

Quote from: luvrbus on September 03, 2018, 07:47:57 PM


Nope when you push the peddle and you don't pickup speed you are lugging the engine, catch you another gear or you will pay later like the old Fram filter commercial ,that is bad advice Don   

When i see a hill, in 4th gear, I put the selector in 2.
Allison shifts better all by itself and does a better job than me.
In fact I don't need to see a hill.

What is lugging?  What is happening to your engine while lugging?

Edit:

I think I found a pretty good answer: https://youtu.be/soJea7xEt-8

Clifford, forgot to add the downshifting part. Yes, mash it until the bus falls down into the next lower gear range, then change to lower gear to keep RPMs up. On steep grades it's still a losing battle for speed in that the bus doesn't go faster but hopefully holds the speed or slows down more slowly until another downshift is necessary.

I do it by RJ's article on shifting. I approach the hill at speed, if possible, and hold the pedal steady. As the speed drops from 65mph down to 60 mph I get ready to shift. Once the speed is at 55mp (which is 5 mph above my shift point) I initiate the shift from 4th to 3rd gear. By the time I'm done with the shift and ready to let the clutch pedal up my speed is just under 50 mph and we're good to go continuing the climb.

My engine is still fairly new (44K original miles) so probably a bit tighter than most. I feel like it has pretty good power but it will lose speed on grades if they are long and/or steeper than about 3.5%

Wow.........I never knew our buses would slow down on hills. ;D

Don, a long time ago someone said to drive it like you stole it and I think that is good advice. Keeping the revs up is important, not only because you aren't lugging the engine, but because it is keeping the fan moving at a higher speed to help cooling. When I approach steep hills in my bus that is set up to run at lower RPMs than most 2 strokes, I still drop a gear before the bottom of the hill I am about to climb and I pick up some speed to help me carry up the hill.

But your remark about having to watch temps is a strong signal you need to address what is a problem. A healthy cooling system is going show higher temps when the engine is working hard such as a hill  climb, but those temps should peak at some level far below temps that are too high. I don't know your engine, but I would consider the engine and cooling system in good operating order if it ran at a normal 180 for example, but never went past 195 on the steepest, longest hills on the hottest days. Those are numbers I saw on my 8V92 so yours might be different.

@manning , yeah I've learned the hard way.  When the going gets tough, gear down and mash that pedal down.  What I missed in the "Don't lug speech" was keeping the RPM up means putting the pedal down even in the face of rising temps.  Your temp gauge will always read 10-15 seconds behind reality.

@windtrader https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=11957.0  This topic has the chart for the 8v71.   The reason to mash the pedal down is to get the HP up.  Ideally into the 1700-1800+ range.    Like I said earlier, I've noticed I can pull a hill (small MN type hills) at 65+mph pedal down no problem (with the 6v92 TA , turbo helping a ton at 15+lbs boost) But at 55 or even 60, nope not gonna happen, RPMs are just too low and boost is too low to keep it there, so it falls until I need to gear down.

Edit: I noticed your comment on keeping the pedal down until it naturally downshifts.  I don't know on the 8v71, but the 6v92TA that's a bad idea in my experience.  The turbo will by that time generating a tremendous amount of boost in part because the RPMS are low, so the engine can't take in the charge as much.  Anyway, this prolongs the situation of lugging, I find I'm better off accepting my fate  when I see my speed dropping past 60, down shifting and letting up then getting back on it.
These are funny beasts for sure.

Quote from: chessie4905 on September 03, 2018, 03:54:48 PM
Then the bull gear lets go after a rebuild....

So what is the cause of that exactly? I've seen it happen, heard about it, there must be a cause and indications, and why would preventing it be something the block must be removed to do?

Jim

The engine dosen't need to come out to do the PM on the bull gear when it fails it is common practice to remove the engine and do a complete rebuild because of unknown damage caused,and some do patch one up and go down the road for another 100,000 miles
   

But why does it fail in the first place? They must have that information. Is it a million mile wear issue so somebody neglected the replacement interval?  I've got to think that the crank-BG backlash has to be the most critical with BG-cam being next and the others of lesser importance. If it was alignment it would never make that first 1/2MM. So that doesn't sound like it'd have anything to do with the block.

Jim

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on September 04, 2018, 10:25:04 AM
But why does it fail in the first place? They must have that information. Is it a million mile wear issue so somebody neglected the replacement interval?  I've got to think that the crank-BG backlash has to be the most critical with BG-cam being next and the others of lesser importance. If it was alignment it would never make that first 1/2MM. So that doesn't sound like it'd have anything to do with the block.

Jim

You need to ask Detroit that question I just follow the flow sheet they provide for checking the blocks after a bull gear failure,those blocks are so thin and light weight some times you cannot even salvage the block

The bull gear bearings on Series 60 are supposed to be checked at 750,000 miles for looseness.  The word is if you have any metal in your oil before that the bull gear is at the top of the diagnostic check.  It reminds me of the idler gear bearings in the 2-stroke 71-92 series-- you never know when one could fail and in-frames do not replace those bearings.  Checking your oil for metal in either engine during an oil change is very important to avoid catastrophic failures.

@Jon -

QuoteI would consider the engine and cooling system in good operating order if it ran at a normal 180 for example, but never went past 195 on the steepest, longest hills on the hottest days

These numbers are spot on with what I observe. I still think it's a good idea to make sure it doesn't get over these numbers.
The shifting thing - As it slows down, I watch the speedo as it has colored bars showing shift points. As soon as it drops toward the lower end of one, I downshift and then the bus is revving at the high end of that lower gear. Do that until second, newer had to go lower yet. And with the 740 at highway speed that first "downshift" is really taking out of "overdrive", so I'm told.

Check all margins, Oil. Fluids, Run these 2 strokes until they blow boys. When they do,  get another. 8)

Don,, how long have you owned the 8V71??

What !!! a 740 does not have a overdrive it's a 1:1 final 4 speed transmission

OK, so I dun't know shittte. LOL Just seems really easy to slide out of fourth, like butrer. Sometimes some lower gear downshifts are more noticeable. I let up just for a second before the downshift and immediately step hard again. seems to be smoothest that way.

It should slide down to 2nd smooth they stay lock lockup till second gear when down shifting

Quote from: windtrader on September 04, 2018, 04:40:03 PM
@Jon - These numbers are spot on with what I observe. I still think it's a good idea to make sure it doesn't get over these numbers.
The shifting thing - As it slows down, I watch the speedo as it has colored bars showing shift points. As soon as it drops toward the lower end of one, I downshift and then the bus is revving at the high end of that lower gear. Do that until second, newer had to go lower yet. And with the 740 at highway speed that first "downshift" is really taking out of "overdrive", so I'm told.

That means to me that your cooling system is doing exactly what it should, so if your operating temps start to climb above that operating range you will have information that says it is going to need attention. Just keep the revs up so the fan is spinning fast.

Advice take it or leave you do not want to go in debt to buy a bus,they so cheap now Ritchie Bros sold off some DL MCI buses with series 60 and B500 Allison's for $2300.00 ea with the fees.lol it is going to cost me more to get the bus to Texas than I paid for the bus  >:(

@Clifford - Agree that is a terrific low entry price but as we preach often it is usually better to pay more upfront to hopefully have fewer unexpected expenses later. We also agree buses these days being put to pasture are ticking time bombs ready to blow some major system.

If anything all prospective buyers looking at these ultra cheap buses should be extra careful before pursuing and preferably just turn the page, especially since everyone agrees it is far better to purchase an already converted coach.
That said, depends on what one wants to do with the thing. If it runs and looks like it has a couple thousand miles of life in it, I'd consider one to strip clean inside and turn it into a storage unit. Once done, hopefully prep and bring to the scrapper.  Buying a used container and selling once done is certainly the more predictable and less risky option but where's the fun?

Only reason I bought the bus it has documentation of a new 12.7L series 60 and B500 under 12k miles.Government transit authority's can do that since the tax payers foot the bill.I cannot buy the ECM for $2300.00 new.it's a nice bus with recent inspections     

Excellent buy. Good point to look at these for parts. There are diamonds in the rough, just do your homework before bidding. Still, noobie busnuts, buying this sort of bus to start converting is not the recommended option.

Quote from: windtrader on September 05, 2018, 08:37:44 AM
Excellent buy. Good point to look at these for parts. There are diamonds in the rough, just do your homework before bidding. Still, noobie busnuts, buying this sort of bus to start converting is not the recommended option.

Why electronic engines don't lie to you 200 bucks for somebody with a Pro/Link or lap top you can get the DNA and history with the serial number,same with electronic Allison

There are 60 to 80  MCI DL3s coming on the market in the next few weeks as Greyhound is shutting down operations in Western Canada.

DLs are so cheap now, it may renew an interest in doing conversions from scratch...

They would be an excellent platform to start with.

JC

For me, i think buying a previously converted bus with with a well maintained engine and other mechanical systems is best.  I will have to learn as I go; something that is basically ready to go on day one is a great starting place.  I think everyone will be different, I might be different in a few years.

That maybe your best bet but buy one that has been used regularly,people park buses for a year or ten years with a fairly good engines say 50,000 miles means nothing because they never store one right according to Detroit.I find the boat people will spend a few bucks getting their 2 strokes ready for storage where bus bus people turn the key off and call it good   

Under $3K for a DL3, especially with low miles is a heck of a deal but northern Alberta is a long ways off. Plus those are all gone by now. Is salt a thing up there? I wouldn't know, maybe it stays so cold it's pointless or something. Anyway I'm kinda hoping that's a sign of the times. It'd be pretty easy for me to justify a deal like that for something within say a few hundred miles.
Just the sort of purchase I'd like to make.

Jim

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on September 05, 2018, 07:49:30 PM
It'd be pretty easy for me to justify a deal like that for something within say a few hundred miles.
Just the sort of purchase I'd like to make.

Jim

if a few hundred miles hurts now...it'll really put a twist in things later :)

Jim,
When I was hunting for a bus, I put a geo boundary at the middle of the country. The cost and logistics and practicalities of trying to purchase a bus on the other side of the country rarely makes sense if DIY it. If you have brokers looking and you trust them, that makes a larger search more realistic. You'd still need to plan on a few trips but that's the way it goes.

Looking at buses within the designated zone is still a challenge due to costs and time to check out coaches. With careful screening I found one can get a very good sense of what is being sold. A trip at that point is really to verify and just find out if you really like that coach. These costs do weigh on your mind and pocketbook; however, it's simply sunk cost of looking to buy a used bus.

The cost of bringing the coach home never entered into my calculations for a few reasons. Again, simply cost of buying a bus, same as paying to get a professional survey done. Second reason - I had done enough research and preparing to know the outgoing money and sweat and tears one is exposed to the minute you push that start button. So, in the larger view, a thousand bucks to get the coach home was just the down payment on the initiation fee and no more; fully expecting plenty more checks to be written over time. With that expectation, the proper one at least for me, I'm a very happy bus owner. lol

Quote from: windtrader on September 05, 2018, 09:52:20 PM
The cost of bringing the coach home never entered into my calculations for a few reasons. Again, simply cost of buying a bus, same as paying to get a professional survey done.

Is a professional something that many people have done before purchasing?  I think I remember seeing an ad placed by a surveyor in the BCM, are there many people that provide this service?

To clarify:

The $2300 DL is Clifford's purchase at a Ritchie Bros. auction sale. I don't know where that was. Ritchie Bros have sales all over the world.

The Western Canadian Greyhound DLs haven't sold yet. They are still in service for a few days or weeks. I forget when is their quitting time. I don't know how Greyhound is going to dispose of them. I heard they are taking bids for the whole lot (60 to 80 DL3s, and 1 Prevost X3). So the successful bidder would then sell them one a time maybe... We will see... I will update this info when I know more.

JC

Lugging on a 8V-71NA is determined by what injectors you have. The original 253hp version were N55 injectors and made to be run with your foot into it at all times. Even with N60 injectors at 277hp, the torque was rated at 1,200rpm, so full throttle was acceptable down to 1,200rpm. But if you've increased to N65 (300hp) or N70 (318hp) injectors, these were rated at 1,600rpm for full torque. So running a 4spd manual will get you below 1,600rpm and you have to heed the advice about being able to pull a long hill at part throttle.
Even with my turbo and 7G75 injectors, I let my bus reduce in speed down to pull long grades sometimes in 1st (V730) at around 35mph. As said before, you'll eventually get there. Good Luck, TomC

Well it certainly makes for interesting developments. I agree it'd be pretty difficult to justify a trip to the other side of the country to look at a bus, and would essentially require the choice among several suitable candidates with low miles at a price low enough to justify the costs of driving it back across the country. Or having it driven since I don't have a CDL. A shorter trip I'd be willing to chance. I do know delivery is something that can be arranged but it still means a round trip to do inspection and make the deal. For that to work there has to be a very high probability that the deal will indeed go through. That bar is pretty high. I'd be much more interested in similar fleet sales occurring in the East or the Midwest. I would think it would tend to depress sale prices across the country though.

Jim

I bought mine in Salt Lake back in June,check the Ritchie Bros site they have auctions across the US in different states,Public Surplus Sales,Iron Planet and so on are all good you will find one in your area.LOL I am waiting on Salt Lake to sell off some J4500's next year.Ritchie Bros is where you get a deal when they have buses those people are there buying high dollar construction equipment and they could care less about a bus or a RV.Last year in Phoenix I saw a 1997 Marathon low mileage conversion sell for under $35,000 @ the Ritchie Bros sell there was only 2 bidding on it       

Trouble is, is that the winning bidder would've gone to $75,000 if I started bidding.lol

I have a truck for sale at Ritchie Brothers right now, the catch is they take a 15% commission, and you can not set a reserve. Some times thing sell cheap, some times you get good money as a seller. It looks like Cliff did well.

Hot and cold at Ritchie. I bid online on a beautiful converted coach last year. It seemed there were several bidders then it got to just me and one other. It got bid up and up until I finally ran out of credit. LOL, just as well. The next week I flew to Denver and found the coach I love now.
Here's the link to the video I recorded of the event. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGiWwBIw_ZU&t=39s

If it was a Custom Coach from Columbus, Ohio, chances are it was a quality coach. The exchange rate would have made it a good deal. I'm surprised the auctioneer only went up a thousand at a time. RB people usually jump up in bigger chunks of your cash, at least at the auctions I have been to in the US. 

I set up automatic notice with ritchie for MCI in the midwest, we'll see. Doesn't look like much there.

Jim

It is touch and go with Ritchie Bros on buses some times none some times 20+,I have this friend in Canada that ended up with 2 Prevost cheaper than 1 would scarp for there were no bidders.I don't play that bidding on line game you can get sucked in there lol I did on 2 Humvee's.
There are people that will bid for you in person for a 100 bucks at those sales.I told my guy the cut off and he called back in 5 minutes and said you have money left you want to bid on another one   

I did just notice they want a 25% deposit before you can bid. That does complicate matters. No point in depositing money until there are buses to bid on.

Jim

Quote from: Jim Blackwood on September 07, 2018, 08:49:18 AM
I did just notice they want a 25% deposit before you can bid. That does complicate matters. No point in depositing money until there are buses to bid on.

Jim

The bid deposit is specific to the auction you are registered for, and you will not be a valid bidder without it. If you do not use it, the hold on the credit card is released after a few business days, but it does reduce your credit level in the meantime (you do not need to put up cash). It is best to be at the auction in person, or have a trusted stand-in. Online pictures do not always tell the complete story, and their check-in inspection is not very demanding.

The credit on account is actually a very good "feature". It allows you to ponder what the max you want to bid and if it is exceeded you are forced out. If you watch the video, you can see that in action. I do think the other guy was very very close to dropping and one more bid would have a good chance of getting that one. Oh well.
Any auction, whether bidding online or in person, you never know if there is a shill or any kind of funny stuff going on. The main disadvantage is not seeing the goods up close. And we all know there is no substitute to inspect the item in person.