Good morning fellow bus folk!
Hope all are staying cool and away from fires. :) Haven 't been able to post lately, too much time working to enjoy the forum. :-\
Thinking about possibly starting another conversion and looking at MCI shells. Guess I'm just an MCI guy.
I was looking at the fleet shells that were "somewhat" newer / MCDL4500 or DL4000 year 2000-2006. Most all of those I noticed, and expected, would have 400K - 800K miles. I believe that MCI had some newer technology in 2007, but those are getting costly. Not sure about swinging that much for a 2007 shell.
Then I saw some older MCI conversions 1994/1995 but they only had around 100K miles. My thought was then maybe I could get an older shell, but with far fewer miles, and just gut it and start over. Maybe keep the generator & inverters, tanks, etc. e.g., the stuff in the underbays.
So - assuming there are service records and all checks out for the private coaches - were the technology gains material enough to make it worth getting the newer shell (1994/1995 vs. 2004-2006/7)? I imagine I'd also save some $$ by keeping some of the components in the bay as well. Either bus option would be checked out by a local mechanic.
What says the wisdom of the bus board?! What other factors would go into this choice? What am I missing!
Thanks as always, Phil
Phil, you're a pretty experienced bus guy, you've been in it longer than I have, so take my words with a grain of salt:
We lived in our self converted 9 for almost 6 years but then sold it and planned to upgrade to the new J4500 body style...but then a really cheap 1992 102C3 shell fell into our laps in Dallas. A solid DDEC II 8v92TA rebuilt in 2002 with an Allison 748, all new air bags, bearings, brakes, and a ton of work done on the mechanical and underbits. Previous owner had already professionally raised the roof 8" and closed it all in. He rebuilt the cooling blower box completely, fresh radiators, and installed newer renaissance caps front and back. He even had half the rims upgraded to 24.5" alcoas. All that just sweetened the deal at $10,000 so we couldn't pass it up. So now, we have an older coach that looks kinda like a newer one and honestly we are happy. She's fast, rides nice, and is just better in every way than our 9. I think your decision depends a lot on what you find in your price range. That being said, if I were to buy a bus again, without any doubt, I'm going to skip right over anything two stroke and go straight to a 4 stroke for just a ton of reasons you are probably already aware of. Here's how my "older" coach with stainless removed and updated caps looks: (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170629/3a4e844297952145ce1fb63909988078.jpg)
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Your putting a very interesting question up and im curious. It maybe you know already but i dont, the years body control modules/computers were introduced in these mci buses. Im sure Clifford and others can put some good knowledge towards the ? . The newer wiring as multiplex style communications is surely available in the late 90's and 2k years and so i will be listening drinking a bit of coffee.
Good day
Floyd
I own somewhere between 25 and 30 MCI coaches total, between of operating fleet of 18, 2 personal motor homes (parents 89, and my 94) and about 7 in our scrap yard. We have made an active effort to stay AWAY from anything after 02 due to the multiplex system. We finally gave up, and have recently purchased our first 07 D4505, and are doing a rebuild to put it in the fleet. I have a friend with 2 06 models, and so far they have not been nearly as reliable as his older coaches from the 90s.
I don't really see any advantage of going to a newer coach for conversion. I would however make sure you stick with a Series 60, as cheap as they are now.
Sweeeet looking rig Scott & Heather. ;D ;D ;D
Thanks for the pic and the insights Scott. I'm studying all the items & responses you have listed. It sounds like the jump from a MC9 to the newer 102C3 was already a huge benefit to you, along with all the amenities the previous owner included in the sale. Good point. I'm fully expecting to have some engine work that will be required - all my shell candidates needless to say, will not be coming straight off the showroom floor. :o
For sure the new shell will have a 4 stroke.
Kind Regards, Phil
when I was looking to upgrade from my 1990 M C I 102c3 I wanted the years from 1999 - 2002 with a 4 stroke and with out egr or the rest of the crap that has been added for emissions . I was looking for a already converted coach that I could redo to the way we wanted it . then I came across the featherlite we have now with low mileage in need of upgrades and at a very low low price . I was looking for a M C I but I could not be happier then I am now . lots of interior rework and some mechanical work plus 8 tires but all in not very much money spent . oh ya LOTS MORE POWER !!! so good luck with your search and they are out there , you just need to find it
dave
Since you are going to get it, why not gut all the multiplex stuff and change it to old tech? They don't do compliance inspections on these vehicles do they?
Wow! This is fascinating and I'm learning a LOT. Adam, thanks for sharing your first-hand experience with your MCI fleet. Very interesting indeed. Never thought I'd be thinking that older buses would have the more dependable technology. Thanks for the additional MCI information Dave, and the encouragement! Floyd, I'll share a cup of coffee with you over this! ;D Thanks for the swap out idea Chessie4905.
Kind Regards, Phil
Technology didn't get more reliable with complexity, it got more sophisticated. It drove economy and emissions more than anything else, with a healthy helping of fancy toys and geegaws. I have a really nice little Mercedes in my shed, 8 years old. Known issue with the transmission happened, resale/trade in value is virtually zero, it has scrap value. Because a $20 RPM sensor in the control module failed. Mercedes wants $12K to replace the transmission, a new module is $5K, and you can buy dodgy replacement boards from the European aftermarket for about $1K and hope. Not impressed with technology these days.
How much of the technology that is in our vehicles today is because we as a society asked for it. Maybe not specifically but because we have chosen to not participate as drivers, so we want transmissions to shift themselves (so we can talk on the cell phone instead of shifting), we want lane change warnings, we want adaptive cruise control to stop us from hitting the car in front of us and we want to plug in a computer and have it tell us what just broke because that is easier and actually training to be a mechanic.
We demand clean air, but instead of limiting the use of the car so we pollute less, we want a car to exhaust air cleaner than what went into it so the soccer mom's can run all over doing errands. A lot of the engine complexity is no longer the engine, but the stuff hanging on it.
Now cars are rolling computers because we cannot read maps. plan ahead for where to eat or fuel, and we need cameras so we don't have to turn our head to look in a mirror.
How much of that stuff was shoved down our throats, and how much of the stuff is because of us and how lazy and dumb we got as a society?
The bigger bus companies, and trucking firms, replace their equipment before the warranty runs out.
JC
For a bus nut, a pre EGR (before 1995 ish) S60 with Allison B500 would be a very good choice.
JC
Quote from: Jon on June 30, 2017, 06:54:09 AM
We demand clean air, but instead of limiting the use of the car so we pollute less, we want a car to exhaust air cleaner than what went into it so the soccer mom's can run all over doing errands. A lot of the engine complexity is no longer the engine, but the stuff hanging on it.
Limiting the use of the car wouldn't necessarily tackle pollution. Consumerism promotes pollution and focusing on made up metrics like 'carbon footprints' when focus on the bigger picture is better. eg: electric cars- while totally ignoring the lithium and nickel mining and shipping impacts or the impact of hauling heavy batteries around rather than looking at lightweight vehicles. Self driving cars- are another example of a solution to a question that no one asked. One designed to take the focus away from the individual. the ultimate in commoditization.
Keeping an older vehicle on the road and maintaining it - is BY FAR the most sustainable course-regardless of powertrain. Consumerism pedals meaningless gadgets that drive complexity up and dependability down. The gadgets are used to coax you into newer vehicles. Keeping older vehicles on the road will tend to support local small businesses also rather than support cronny capitalism and big union supporting multi layered corporate companies.
Vehicles designed from the outset to be rebuildable, and customizable make more sense to me. Older cars were like that. Buses are (were?) like that. Boeing air craft are like that
Hi Phil, looking for a 102C3, I think one option is the best, the larger single radiator is better then the split system, better cooling. tom, lvmci...
I view the situation from practical cost terms. If there are lots of financial resources, then something newer might be more convenient, but problems will need to be corrected at great cost (or under warranty). The best value is a good 2 cycle or pre-EGR Series 60 provided you are mechanically inclined enough to do most of the maintenance. The problems start with older stuff when the parts become no longer available or rebuildable, or replaceable with an adapted part. Part of the joy of being involved with bus conversions is solving problems with creative solutions. (One thing I noticed when writing this is that when I used the word "rebuildable", the computer wanted me to hyphenate it as if it were an incorrect term).
Repeat, won't cancel
This is why I'm converting my 1985 Kenworth cabover with mechanical Cat 3406B and mechanical Allison HT740. NO electronics on the truck, no EGR, and am legal smog wise in California (actually exempt). Granted electronic engines take care of themselves, but having 14 gauges help keep everything in line. Good Luck, Tomc
Quote from: lostagain on June 30, 2017, 06:59:19 AM
The bigger bus companies, and trucking firms, replace their equipment before the warranty runs out.
JC
touche !
Have you guys and girls ever noticed the only thing the EPA and electronic engineers have never screwed up yet is QWERTY layout of the typewriter key board ;D it is same as it was since the late 1800's
Now Cliff why did you say that now they will probably get on the band wagon and screw that up.
Quote from: luvrbus on July 01, 2017, 10:55:26 AM
Have you guys and girls ever noticed the only thing the EPA and electronic engineers have never screwed up yet is QWERTY layout of the typewriter key board ;D it is same as it was since the late 1800's
Clifford -Unless you consider the DVORAK keyboard layout! :o :o :o
Quote from: RJ on July 01, 2017, 01:15:41 PM
Clifford -
Unless you consider the DVORAK keyboard layout! :o :o :o
Yes, that was the one attempt to change from Qwerty. I tried it back in the nineties, and it is more efficient. The Qwerty style supposedly was meant to slow typists down because the old mechanical keys could get jammed if you typed too fast. It never caught on because everyone's brain has been Qwertized. I still have a Dvorak keyboard if someone wants to try. I believe it was the Mavis Beacon typing program that had a Dvorak version (in DOS). ;)
I knew about the DVORAK it has been around, but has had some changes made over the years
Phil, Tom brought up a good point too, a truck conversion...they make awesome coaches. Still on my bucket list someday....(I'm 34, and two buses in so far, so maybe I can do it?)
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Thanks Scott & Tom,
Yes, Tom did indeed bring up a good point. I've always been fascinated by the big truck rigs. No argument there.
My dream has always been the bus though. Started when I was < 5 year's old watching buses rumble down to the Lake Sequoia YMCA mountain camp. I can't fight it - it's my destiny. ;D Else it would have likely been a truck.
re: dependability - that's a hard point re: too much electronics and not enough reliability. We've gotten our MC9 to be extremely reliable. And in fact the only time it has broken down in about the last decade has been when a mechanic doing maintenance or an upgrade has made a mistake (for example, not properly bleeding the coolant system). Once we get past the mistake the bus continues to just run. Our family and guests really appreciate that. We do a lot of preventative maintenance but I don't mind that at all. Wacky electronics - not so happy about that thought.
Kind Regards, Phil
Electronics in vehicles have a bad reputation for sure. But you have to consider that, just like it is for mechanical engines, electronic troubles are one in a million kind of thing. For every time you hear about someones electronic problem, there are hundreds of thousands of miles being driven without trouble that aren't mentioned. I think the advantages of electronics far outweigh the negatives. Last week the mechanic at Transportation Charter Services in Calgary was showing me the multiplex diagnostic system on a 2016 Prevost. If I have a problem on the road, I call the shop, and I can tell the tech exactly where the fault is from the diagnostic display on the dash. It pinpoints which switch or module or component is at fault. The tech then knows what part to bring with him. Or it can bypass a bad spot to get me home. We have new MCI J4500s with the same kind of system. That new stuff is SO fun to drive! You have to trade them in when the warranty expires though.
Hey, I still love my 1977 MC5C.
JC
Lol you should the electronics on the interior coach controls in the newer Prevost conversions I posted a photo of just 1 of the control boxes on F/B measured 4x2ft x 8nches thick.
Wanting to know the price of the control panel I called the converter and asked a few questions the panel cost 65k plus labor if you replace the complete panel ???
Quote from: plyonsMC9 on July 02, 2017, 01:38:46 PM
Thanks Scott & Tom,
Yes, Tom did indeed bring up a good point. I've always been fascinated by the big truck rigs. No argument there.
My dream has always been the bus though. Started when I was < 5 year's old watching buses rumble down to the Lake Sequoia YMCA mountain camp. I can't fight it - it's my destiny. ;D Else it would have likely been a truck.
re: dependability - that's a hard point re: too much electronics and not enough reliability. We've gotten our MC9 to be extremely reliable. And in fact the only time it has broken down in about the last decade has been when a mechanic doing maintenance or an upgrade has made a mistake (for example, not properly bleeding the coolant system). Once we get past the mistake the bus continues to just run. Our family and guests really appreciate that. We do a lot of preventative maintenance but I don't mind that at all. Wacky electronics - not so happy about that thought.
Kind Regards, Phil
If you are totally lost on the new truck/bus computer systems and make your living as a computer nerd your background can work against you. Keeping this to buses, there are times that your computer background can work against you when you try to guess why a gauge reads high when the engine is actually running at normal temperatures. There are times when there is a problem with old wiring causing high readings due to rubbing of the electrical wiring. This may show up on a 10 mile road test or it may not. The important thing in this situation is COMMUNICATION. If there is a problem talk to the shop that did the work--. Don't "throw then under the bus" as the old saying goes.
--Geoff
I'm pretty much happy with the results of the "over computerization" of the new drive lines as far as driveability goes. What I am not so keen on (besides multiplex wiring) is the propriertary nature of the system diagnostics. My little bus with it's Isuzu underpinnings requires a "dealer only" scanner which translates into $200 a scan etc, etc. I can buy a dealer scanner with all the factory support new for only $3250!!!! I'm trying to negotiate a deal on a used one for half the price--we'll see.
As it stands right now, Good Sam will drag my broken down bus to the nearest safe haven where there probably won't be an Isuzu dealer to read codes and where storage fees and "lets throw this part at it" service will soon add up. One way or another, all of us with "modern" computerized buses will have to address this problem.
Jack :(
Quote from: oltrunt on July 03, 2017, 06:39:19 PM
I'm pretty much happy with the results of the "over computerization" of the new drive lines as far as driveability goes. What I am not so keen on (besides multiplex wiring) is the propriertary nature of the system diagnostics. My little bus with it's Isuzu underpinnings requires a "dealer only" scanner which translates into $200 a scan etc, etc. I can buy a dealer scanner with all the factory support new for only $3250!!!! I'm trying to negotiate a deal on a used one for half the price--we'll see.
As it stands right now, Good Sam will drag my broken down bus to the nearest safe haven where there probably won't be an Isuzu dealer to read codes and where storage fees and "lets throw this part at it" service will soon add up. One way or another, all of us with "modern" computerized buses will have to address this problem.
Jack :(
Beware the scanner software and hardware! I got taken by an eBay seller from China that sent me a small briefcase of connector plugs and software to analyze the different trucks/offroad/engines etc. only to find out you had to be a DEALER to gain access to the internet support that the software was supposed to access and give you the fault codes.
--Geoff
They are all that way now Geoff I paid 600 bucks for some Allison software now I have to pay Allison 600 bucks a year to use it ???
That $#!% is scary, We'll stay with our antique, thanks...
If I ever win the Lottery I will consider having an electronic coach, but until then, I will stick with mechanical's. I have driven newer coaches as Charter Buses, and they are slick in many respects, but when problems arise, it can be awfully expensive.
Hey Clifford Can I sell you a nice mechanical Bus.....Hhhhhhuuuummmm ;D
Quote from: lostagain on June 30, 2017, 07:02:00 AM
For a bus nut, a pre EGR (before 1995 ish) S60 with Allison B500 would be a very good choice.
This exactly what I have. A 1995 bus with Series 60 and Allison B500. Tons of wires and a nightmare to troubleshoot electrical issues. Luckily, the only ongoing electrical issue is I can't use the cruise control to increase the idle speed. Really minor. The cruise control itself still works fine. I did have a problem with the clearance light fuse blowing, but that turned out to be someone doing a crappy job replacing one of the clearance lights.
Continued thanks for this thread ;D Everyone's contributions are deeply appreciated. :)
Geoff; I did indeed stay in communication with the shop in Phoenix during my last "matter". They assured me they bled the coolant system before I attempted to drive the bus home. I called them when the bus shut down at night on the I-17 heading north in Phoenix 20 minutes after leaving their shop. And twice more attempting go up the I-17 grade. All shutdowns were due to air pockets in the coolant. Last shutdown was right in the middle of an intersection. Turned out they hadn't really bled the system and by the time the night was over, I had added in 4 1/2 gallons of coolant. Scary night on the mountain. I did stay in touch, not that it helped a lot. Appreciated the police in Anthem though setting up their cars around the bus to keep me from getting hit while the bus was disabled. No names mentioned so no one thrown under the bus.
All; not sure about this 'sell the bus before the warranty runs out'. ?? I'm sure I've never owned a bus under any kind of warranty. That sounds like something someone does who can afford a brand new bus & conversion. Haha! So if I pick up one of the used 2007 MCI DL4000 / DL4500 shells w/all the electronics - but no warranty - that could turn out bad? I'm seeing hundreds or thousands of yearly fees for software to interpret codes if there is an issue? Or am I totally misreading the situation? Sounds like it may be a good idea to interpret the codes and have that software if I don't purchase older shells. I like the idea of the ready diagnostics, however, as suggested by many the pre-heavy electronics may be the way to go.
Could someone please educate me w/ regard to what happens if you don't have the $3,200 scanner or $600 p/year for Allison software. e.g., what are my risks? This looks like it will only get more difficult or expensive for us bus folk as time goes on and the trend towards expensive electronics continues !?
Kind Regards, Phil
On a 2004 J like other buses you would need software for the engine,transmission,brakes and the chassis or take it to MCI
Thanks Clifford - that helps. Starting to get the idea now.
For someone like me who doesn't have extensive DD troubleshooting that some of the good folks on the forum have, it may not matter as much since I usually have to find a shop anyway. Unless it is to have a shop remotely diagnose.
Also sounds like some of the local folk w/ small truck shop may no longer be able to troubleshoot, so I'd be giving up that type of resource. But would be gaining the more recent supply chain and a larger number of shops / more recent training out on the highways.
Kind of like 'you pays your money and you takes your chances'.
With best regards, Phil
Well, you pay your money for a newer bus and its value drops every year while labor increases. The people that can afford the new stuff don't come on this board.
--Geoff
There is no true answer to the original question.
There are some realities that are typically ignored until someone has to face them. Regardless of age the cost to do common maintenance and repair items is the same. That means a cost that would be relatively small in relation to the value of a newer coach, would be a deal breaker for an older coach. Some simple examples would be to replace bay doors that were damaged, or just replacing a set of tires.
Some repairs to older coaches are not possible or practical because of parts availability, rust and corrosion, or lack of knowledgible technicians.
Newer coaches may have parts availability, technical support, but are getting complex and require computers, software or readers to diagnose simple issues.
Owning a bus of any age is not for sissies, is an expensive hobby, and is definitely not for people who cannot or will not do most or all of their own work.
Very well said Jon re: no true answer. And agree - definitely not for sissies - it took at least 3 months for my back to heal from my last adventure while cleaning the 8Ds and getting tangled up w/ the wires while moving the batteries. >:(
keep those bus wheels turnin'!
Kind regards all, Phil