Maybe one day I will be able to not start a thread off by saying hey guys I'm new.....
So my bus is at the house as we prepare for the 4th camping trip. I drove it from storage last Sunday. I went to start it and the engine did a 1/2 turn....batteries dead. Now I charged both batteries over night and they are 100% and I will try to start it when I get home from work today so hopefully things are back to normal.
I'm trying to find out how/why I drained the starting batteries. For some reason when I drove it home last Sunday, I was completely out of my rhythm. I even forgot to place the blocks under the axles!! So when it wouldn't turn over, I noticed that I left all the switches on above my head. Assuming most are in the same location, I have about 6-8 switches that I flip over and an on/off button above my head on the panel that gives life to the inside of the bus. I said ahh that must have been the reason!!
Then I started to think about it. Leaving those switches on should only kill the house batteries right??
My main power lever that is connected to the starting batteries was turned off. I don't know how I killed the starting batteries. Unless leaving those switches on does in fact pull from the starting batteries somehow. Also, one other issue is when I started it on Sunday, I noticed just a very slight lull in starting but then I drove it an hr to the house. Wouldn't driving the bus for an hr recharge starting batteries?
I hope I was able to explain this well. My hope is that I'm wrong about the above switches only connected to the house batteries b/c that would be one incredible coincidence.
-Brad
Brad,
Even with the master switch off on my MC-9 there was a residual drain on at least one of the batteries. I recommend you buy a 24V trickle charger and leave it on the start batteries when you are shut down to keep them fully charged at all times. And of course, check the water every 1-3 months to ensure they do not run dry as that will kill batteries very fast. That way there, you will always be able to move your bus at any time.
Gary
Thanks Gary, I was hoping that was the case. I do need to look into getting a trickle charger. I store it but start it once a month with no issues.
Jeeze I've never checked the battery water. :o
ahh I have red top optima starting batteries which has gel. Thank god, I thought I failed to check something for over a year!!
What Gary said...and...
Do you have a small line running off one battery that provides 12 volts to a stud?
On my MC8, the 12 gauge line feeds stud 55. If anything is on stud 55 it will drain the batteries... without the charger Gary mentioned.
Maybe a small (less than 100 watts) PV panel on the roof to keep the start batteries charged? A 30V panel will keep 24V of batteries nicely topped up, and if the amps aren't high you may not even need a charge controller. Otherwise, Morningstar makes some nice small CCs that would be ideal. A panel and CC would cost less than a set of batteries.
John
What Gary said times 10. A well setup trickle charge, and keeping an eye on the batteries, is a wonderful way to handle the MC9 and the battery rundowns. IF you don't have time to setup the trickle charge, in the interim I used to disconnect the link between the 2 8Ds. After doing that, I had no more run downs. However, the trickle charger made a huge difference when - after several years - I got off the couch and installed it. Batteries always lively and coach ready to go. Even in the coldest of weather.
Don't be like me and wait so long to put that in!! ;D
Kind Regards, Phil
What Gary said times 11. I always turn off my master battery switch in the battery box for this reason. I could go a year parked like that without my batteries going dead on my MCI 9. On my DDEC 102C3, I can leave the master battery switches on without losing battery. Go figure. Definitely get a 24volt charger to float charge them when parked and you probably will solve your issue.
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Thanks all, the problem is when I store it, I don't have access to power. I do have a battery charger but can only use it when I'm plugged in when camping. I believe it was Gary that said even with the main compartment turned off, their bus draws power. Since I left the overhead switches on for 3 days, it must have drawn power from the starting batteries.
Now I'm worried about the house batteries...... :'(
Without any a/c power, then I would just look at disconnecting the battery manually. Don't rely on the master switch. I used to disconnect by hand / wing nut connectors, or a small wrench. E-Z. A much _better_ idea would have been to use a battery quick disconnect switch. Either works. And I'm sure one of the folks will jump in w/a quick how to or picture on how best to set that up.
Probably not a bad idea to do similar for the house batteries - again assuming no a/c power for a trickle charger.
Hope this helps, Phil
I found that if I leave the 2 coach batteries connected together, even with the main power off, there is some drain going on. I found that if I disconnect the 2 bats from each other with the main switch off, I have no drain on either of them. On one of the batteries, I use a simple thumb screw instead of a nut and leave the cable off until I'm ready to hit the road. I have 2 small 12V 1Amp trickle chargers set up to deliver 24V, but I only plug it in when I leave the batteries connected together with plans of moving again in the next few days. I have an outlet in the engine bay just for the block heater and the trickle chargers. Works for me, ;)
Will
Thanks everyone. I got home last night and both starter batteries were fully charged and it started right up. I then ran the generator w/ A/C to help charge up the house batteries and they work fine. Looks like I'm ready to go tomorrow for the 4th.
I'm going to look into the suggestions given. I'm also thinking about getting a set up at the house so when I park it outside, I can plug it in. I have all the adapters, I just need a 12g extension cord.
-Brad
When I bought my bus, there was a kill switch the previous owner had wired in. I never switched it off and the battery never went flat. Then I replaced a blown 5A fuse and the battery started going flat. I started using the kill switch and the battery still went flat. Thinking it was making contact with the body, I made a plastic holder for it out of cut off vinyl planking. That worked then stopped working. In the end I found the switch was so poorly designed that the bolted on contacts could swivel and touch without human intervention. My final solution to the electrical problem was a hand wheel nut from Lowes.
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I suggest that adding chargers without knowing what underlies is a band-aid.
You need to know where the power is going, and then YOU decide when or whether it will be allowed.
Fix or replace crappy cut-off switches.
It is YOUR coach, wire it the way YOU want it to work.
Every time you go near a battery and mess with tools or otherwise, you risk touching something to ground.
Have you ever seen the power of the sun up close? Minimize the exposure.
A PROPERLY RATED disconnect on the 24 volt, one on the centre tap, and a disconnect on the house batteries.
Walk away and call it done until next month's outing?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: buswarrior on June 30, 2017, 11:26:54 AM
I suggest that adding chargers without knowing what underlies is a band-aid.
You need to know where the power is going, and then YOU decide when or whether it will be allowed.
Fix or replace crappy cut-off switches.
It is YOUR coach, wire it the way YOU want it to work.
Every time you go near a battery and mess with tools or otherwise, you risk touching something to ground.
Have you ever seen the power of the sun up close? Minimize the exposure.
A PROPERLY RATED disconnect on the 24 volt, one on the centre tap, and a disconnect on the house batteries.
Walk away and call it done until next month's outing?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
He has the same bus we have... model and year. Do you have, and might he also have a 12 volt line off of the right battery to front stud 55? If so, and 55 is connected to something, won't that kill the batteries, without a charger?
Quote from: buswarrior on June 30, 2017, 11:26:54 AM
I suggest that adding chargers without knowing what underlies is a band-aid.
You need to know where the power is going, and then YOU decide when or whether it will be allowed.
Fix or replace crappy cut-off switches.
Cut-off switches are for prissy people that don't want to get their hands grubby by handling cabling.
I left mine in the mix and left it switched on because the extra length of cable makes for easier reach to the terminal. The hand wheel simply because I don't want to have to find my wrench each time.
Knowing where the power leak is, is the first move to fixing it. I'm not sure yet but then it's not high on my list of priorities to find it and fix it yet. Thus my bandaid hand nut does for the moment.
As for trickle chargers etc... waste of money. A hand nut is far cheaper!
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What's the best strategy in the event that starter batteries die and you just need to get to the next destination? Should you charge them with a charger (and if so what kind)? OR is it best to have spares on board? Can batteries sit for years like this? We have 2 12V in series.
At your site with electric i would make a good amount of time and individually charge 15 amp.
It will take a good time for each hooked for 12v. To get back at 100% Maybe all night, a higher rate charge needs especially spec. monitored.
I would use other means for any lighting before having a spare set of big batteries.
What size are they at the present 8d or some other 31 possibly, curious.
Floyd
All means have a good weekend
Floyd
Blunt answer: Don't let the starter batteries die.
Either through knowledge and self discipline, or by design.
Murder on purpose or manslaughter by accident, the batteries are still being ruined.
By design your goal is all hotel loads, everything you will use power for, go to the house batteries, no loads on start batteries when camping, otherwise, it WILL happen.
daddysgirl, if a centre tap has been added, a 12 volt line off the middle of the pair of batteries that make up the 24 volt, it must be switched/cut-off same as the 24 volt switch, in order to protect the batteries for the style of storage Branderson is following, no source of power available.
It is popular to run a centre tap for radios/CB other 12 volt accessories, however the unbalanced charging rears its head, ruins batteries... the whole world of battery equalizers would muddy this thread.
Shut off isn't shut off if something is still connected, (except the negative to ground).
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Well said BW!
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Quote from: Billysurf on June 30, 2017, 03:11:08 PM
What's the best strategy in the event that starter batteries die and you just need to get to the next destination? Should you charge them with a charger (and if so what kind)? OR is it best to have spares on board? Can batteries sit for years like this? We have 2 12V in series.
Run a pair of 4/0 cables from the house batteries directly to the starter, through a beefy cutoff switch such as a Cole-Hersee M750 or a Blue Sea 9001 so you can easily boost your start batteries if needed. Easy! Some folk use a remotely-actuated heavy-duty contactor instead of a switch, but the idea's the same. With some solar charging and a house battery intertie, you will never be stranded again, ever.
John
NICE! Thanks John!
why not just start a generator and plug in a charger.... :-\
Quote from: eagle19952 on July 01, 2017, 09:24:41 PM
why not just start a generator and plug in a charger.... :-\
You're boondocking on National Forest land when you hear that a wild fire's approaching you, and fast. Your start batteries are dead. I don't think I would prefer to be charging my batteries in those circumstances - I just need to start NOW and get moving NOW.
OK, that's an extreme situation, but I know what I'd prefer!
John
Quote from: buswarrior on June 30, 2017, 10:35:15 PM
Blunt answer: Don't let the starter batteries die.
Either through knowledge and self discipline, or by design.
Murder on purpose or manslaughter by accident, the batteries are still being ruined.
By design your goal is all hotel loads, everything you will use power for, go to the house batteries, no loads on start batteries when camping, otherwise, it WILL happen.
daddysgirl, if a centre tap has been added, a 12 volt line off the middle of the pair of batteries that make up the 24 volt, it must be switched/cut-off same as the 24 volt switch, in order to protect the batteries for the style of storage Branderson is following, no source of power available.
It is popular to run a centre tap for radios/CB other 12 volt accessories, however the unbalanced charging rears its head, ruins batteries... the whole world of battery equalizers would muddy this thread.
Shut off isn't shut off if something is still connected, (except the negative to ground).
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Thank you. I have a schematic that shows the 12-volt tap, and my introduction into MC8 electrical systems was a result of that wire. It kills the right battery...quickly.
And having the 2 8D setup (the original) is why the ONLY thing they do is run a 0000 cable from the batteries to the rear stud on the frame. My house batteries aren't connected in any way to the start batteries, but that's just my preference.
I just wanted him to look for the wire. If he has one, that's one issue he can quickly solve. Thanks!
Quote from: Iceni John on July 01, 2017, 09:33:56 PM
You're boondocking on National Forest land when you hear that a wild fire's approaching you, and fast. Your start batteries are dead. I don't think I would prefer to be charging my batteries in those circumstances - I just need to start NOW and get moving NOW.
OK, that's an extreme situation, but I know what I'd prefer!
John
a good charger will take 5 or 10 minutes...an evac notice in the event of fire is usually 2-3 days. and i have a toad and insurance. but, to each their own as busnuts are known to do :)
Quote from: eagle19952 on July 02, 2017, 11:36:39 AM
a good charger will take 5 or 10 minutes...an evac notice in the event of fire is usually 2-3 days. and i have a toad and insurance. but, to each their own as busnuts are known to do :)
Shh.... don't upset the doom mongers. I was once told that it was a silly idea to put tanks under a bus where they could get ripped off by vegetation. At that point my mind boggled as to the kind of terrain I'm supposed to be driving over in a BUS! Clearly more strenuous off roading than I've ever done before and am ever likely to.
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I would be more concerned about the poorly wired/home gas fitter/leaking fuel/indoor BBQ installation/dumpster acquired appliance "camper unit" parked next to me bursting into flames, and having to start and move on an emergency basis...
Just to fuel the paranoia?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: Zephod on July 02, 2017, 02:14:20 PM
Shh.... don't upset the doom mongers. I was once told that it was a silly idea to put tanks under a bus where they could get ripped off by vegetation. At that point my mind boggled as to the kind of terrain I'm supposed to be driving over in a BUS! Clearly more strenuous off roading than I've ever done before and am ever likely to.
That was good advice for a schoolie. Many of them are used for remote hunting and camping situations where they are used on rough roads because they have higher clearances. (That's why some use paint brushes and rollers for painting, it makes it easier to touch up the scrapes from branches and rocks). A highway bus would not be appropriate for those kinds of situations, unless you drive for Greyhound and are confused as to where you are. ;)
Quote from: DoubleEagle on July 03, 2017, 07:29:05 AM
That was good advice for a schoolie. Many of them are used for remote hunting and camping situations where they are used on rough roads because they have higher clearances. (That's why some use paint brushes and rollers for painting, it makes it easier to touch up the scrapes from branches and rocks). A highway bus would not be appropriate for those kinds of situations, unless you drive for Greyhound and are confused as to where you are. ;)
My off roading is Walmart car park. I used a roller and brush for painting because spraying takes too darned long and st the end of the day, it's only ever going to be an old bus!
My waste tanks are each 15 gallon u-line drums that hang no lower than the skirt. I'm well aware of the horrendous roads and rail crossings in Lexington county. I drive a special needs schoolbus up some of the things South Carolina believes (in the governors feverish delusions) are roads.
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My hypothetical worst-case scenario of a rapidly-approaching brush fire needing one to get out NOW was envisioning these locations: http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f32/missy-conversion-1998-mci-102-a-17040-19.html#post211934 (http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f32/missy-conversion-1998-mci-102-a-17040-19.html#post211934) The RV pictured probably has less ground clearance than my bus. I see no reason that I would not be able to get my bus into similar places.
The point is that one should have as few as possible single points of critical failure. Two ways to start the engine will always be better than only one way, just like having multiple ways to heat water or generate electricity are prudent. "Always Have A Plan B"!
John
My plan B comes in a variety of calibers.
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