We are having a hitch installed on our MCI 102 A2 (24V) and have a couple of questions. The toad is still debatable as we've found out our Ford Explorer is not towable except on a flat bed or with modification. We'll be traveling across the country and need it to be road legal (braking, lights etc.). I know some of this is vehicle specific, but for arguments sake, what is the most economical way to tow a Land Rover for example (2002 Land Rover Discovery ALL AWD V8 4.0L cyl 4-Speed Automatic). Flat, dolly etc. I was on the phone with Blue Ox (very helpful) but the cost with braking, light kit etc. was racking up to be more than this vehicle is even worth! Looking for insight and appreciate your time!
When in doubt trailer it, car hauler trailer are cheap used or new they are a pain to deal with but so is dolly.LOL I have friends that trailer their Jeeps of all things
Quote from: Billysurf on April 05, 2017, 06:16:22 AMWe are having a hitch installed on our MCI 102 A2 (24V) and have a couple of questions. The toad is still debatable as we've found out our Ford Explorer is not towable except on a flat bed or with modification. We'll be traveling across the country and need it to be road legal (braking, lights etc.). I know some of this is vehicle specific, but for arguments sake, what is the most economical way to tow a Land Rover for example (2002 Land Rover Discovery ALL AWD V8 4.0L cyl 4-Speed Automatic). Flat, dolly etc. I was on the phone with Blue Ox (very helpful) but the cost with braking, light kit etc. was racking up to be more than this vehicle is even worth! Looking for insight and appreciate your time!
There are lots of factors, meaning that "my way" might be different from other bus owners but you're looking at two different issues:
1) The suitability of the vehicle for towing. If you're looking for "four-down" tow, there is the question of whether your vehicle's powertrain allows it without damage. Some vehicles are OK if you just put the transmission in neutral and unlock the steering. Others may have some complication, such as the transmission won't circulate lubrication unless the engine is running and you'd damage the transmission (or for a 4WD, and/or the transfer box) if you just put it in neutral and tow it four-down. Some 4WD vehicles have a specific disconnect on the transfer -- put the transfer in neutral and everything idles along OK as the vehicle is being towed.
You have to check the towing information from the manufacturer; many tow-equipment companies compile a list of vehicles and list each model's suitability for towing.
In some cases, you can modify a vehicle (such as adding an auxiliary lubrication pump to a transmission or transaxle, or installing locking hubs on a 4WD or a locking driveshaft disconnect). Don't expect most of these mods to be cheap.
2) If you're towing a vehicle, you're going to have the costs of trailer hitch, wiring and brake. If you're putting your towed car up on a trailer, the issues of wiring/lights and brake are taken care of on the trailer, but they're still costs you're going to incur. If you're towing four-down or on a two-wheel dolly, you're going to be looking at the cost of a tow-bar or dolly and also wiring/lights and brake. It's all going to cost you, it's just going to cost you differently.
IN MY OPINION!!! (And other people's needs and preferences may vary, and that's OK.) Cars/SUVs/pickups are made to travel down the road on their own four wheels. Putting one on a dolly means that you're converting a stable vehicle into a wheelbarrow and putting one on a trailer is a big, heavy and complicated way of moving one. On the other hand, a trailer puts the rubber-on-the-road, suspension, wiring, braking, and tow connection all on one place and it makes backing up pretty easy.
A dolly is hard to back up and you pay a lot for the equipment and still have to work out the wiring/lights and braking; towing four-down, backing up is very close to impossible and you have the tow bar/connector, lights/wiring and brakes to buy and install, but towing is usually easy and stable (if the power train of the vehicle allows it).
It's all compromises, and different questions for everyone, different buses, and different vehicles. Sorry, there are no quick, easy answers.
HTH, and JMO, BH
The Quick and easy is, Buy a Jeep. Tow Bar plug in lights, Put it in Neutral -Neutral, surge Brake cable and safety disconnect cable. 4 minute hookup and your on the road again with the toed again......
I tow a Jeep Liberty four down, put transfer case in neutral, disconnect battery neutral, turn key to unlock steering and connect tow bar. For lights I made a light box to duplicate the 24v lights on the back of my Prevost, I mount it to the roof attached to luggage rack and plug a long cable into 24v plug on bus. Take it off when arrive at destination. When time exists would like to wire directly into Jeeps lights on back but for now this works fine.
My Jeeps were all manual transmissions you put the transfer case in neutral and the transmission in 4th gear and off you went in a few minutes, I think the 4th gear deal was just to check to be sure the transfer was in neutral not sure really why they did that
Jeep.
There are numerous vehicles out there that allow for easy towing without formalities. We've towed all kinds of vehicles through the years. Some required driveshaft disconnect which we joyfully :-/ did to tow it. Sometimes looking for a tow vehicle that accomodates you is the better choice. Presently (& by our surprise) we ended up with an extremely accommodating tow vehicle, & it would surprise you. It's a 2005 full size Sierra 4x4 Quadrasteer (4 wheel steering). The 4x4 section is all electric push button. Upon hooking it to the tow bar, running in neutral with brake applied you hold 2 wheel high & 4 wheel low buttons for 10 seconds & the whole system dumps into neutral. You put it in park, there is no lock steering on this truck, & drive away forever. It's the coolest setup we have seen & didn't know of it when we purchased it. It pushes the bus well, if needed... The only negative as any 4 tires down is very limited if any reversing.
Our GM Envoy is easy you flip a switch and hold it for a few second it unlocks the steering wheel and you can remove the keys and lock the doors and off you go but it is heavy so I had to install a M/G breaking system for brakes I never had to do that on a Jeep.I thinking about going back to a Jeep
hi Billy, don't forget about the auxiliary brake for the toad, that some states require. my wrangler was the easiest to tow, but the hardest driving on the freeways in LA. the fiat was the lightest and most comfortable. I felt the most secure with manual lockouts on the jeep, with 4wheel drive had the most adventures. but the fiat gets 40mpg, all were a hassle in LA stop & go. fiats shifter was the easiest. the first toad was a 1997 Honda Accord automatic that was flat towable, that was the best one, lvmci...
Tom,no states requires supplemental on a toad,Canada does though ,these supplemental brake manufacture try to do a spin about the weight making you think they are the same as trailer
I tow a 95 Disco, but it's a 5 speed. Your owners manual will have the details about towing an automatic. I built my own attachment points for my tow bar and tied into the Disco's wiring for lights. I disabled the steering lock as I have done on other vehicles I have towed. I found an auxiliary braking system on line for less than $100, tow bar was about $100 too.
Quote from: somewhereinusa on April 05, 2017, 09:23:34 AM
I tow a 95 Disco, but it's a 5 speed. Your owners manual will have the details about towing an automatic. I built my own attachment points for my tow bar and tied into the Disco's wiring for lights. I disabled the steering lock as I have done on other vehicles I have towed. I found an auxiliary braking system on line for less than $100, tow bar was about $100 too.
Dick I guess I'm going to show my ignorance! But what the heck is a '95 Disco?
I thought Disco was a form of dance that went out of style in the '70's!
;D BK ;D
Good one BK but the disco is a range rover model
I have a 95 Disco (short for Discovery) with automatic and it can be towed any distance any speed. They have a true transfer case that allows a complete disconnect.
Quote from: Dave5Cs on April 05, 2017, 07:00:17 AM
The Quick and easy is, Buy a Jeep. Tow Bar plug in lights, Put it in Neutral -Neutral, surge Brake cable and safety disconnect cable. 4 minute hookup and your on the road again with the toed again......
That is the set-up I went with for my 2013 CR-V Honda. I really like the surge brake system. I added a vacuum pump powered from the bus for the power brakes just makes the cable pull less.
Quote from: somewhereinusa on April 05, 2017, 09:23:34 AM
I tow a 95 Disco, but it's a 5 speed. ...
Built as a North American model, Dick??? My brain hurts.
hi Clifford, I thought the brake systems were required in CA & NV, thanks, say hi to Sonja, hope to come down and see you guys soon, tom...
Transfer case in neutral, key in steering wheel unlock position, and tow away. Use relays to build a tow light system. Done
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: lvmci on April 05, 2017, 10:42:37 AM
hi Clifford, I thought the brake systems were required in CA & NV, thanks, say hi to Sonja, hope to come down and see you guys soon, tom...
Not in Ca I know for sure all they worry about is does the RV have enough power to climb a grade with a tow vehicle in tow. LOL that leaves Dave5C and RJ out ;D
Pull our Ranger ,front on a dolly, and pull the drive-shaft. Takes me about 15 minutes. rdw
I did the 4 down on 2 small pick up trucks nissan frontier 5 speed stick , ford ranger 5 speed stick . both pulled good but no brakes and it was hard to back up
now I use a aluminum car trailer at 1200 lbs with a chevy colorado on it . pulls a lot nicer and has brakes and lights and I can back it up any time I want to . but it is a pain to find a spot to put it when traveling . I have never used a car dolly . the + with the trailer is you can use it for lots of other stuff as well behind any vehicle with a trailer hitch
dave
Go to your computer and search for "campingworld dinghy guide" It will list all the towable autos along with any restrictions along with the level of difficulty installing base plates and so on !!!!
The cheap side of me loves the mileage we get out of our Mini, but it's getting harder to get in and out of as our bodies age. I'm thinking the Disco might make a comeback around here ;D The wife being British and all, it only makes sense. FWIW though, I wouldn't consider anything that can't be towed 4 down, and like Scott said, with LED's it's a cinch to wire into your existing light system on any toad.
JMHO and I'm sure that there will be many on this site that disagrrrrrr.... ;D
Or you could trade your Discovery in on the original Land Rover (they are worth more if in good shape). The Series I, II, IIA, and III Land Rovers have the same hubs on both axles, which means you can have Warn-type unlocking hubs on all four wheels. I dragged my 1972 Series III all over the country unlocked, you just turn the dial to re-engage the drive. Of course, some of you might object to a manual transmission with sixteen forward speeds (2 range four speed with overdrive in each gear), and no air conditioning. Some of the other vehicles mentioned might still be turning the driveshafts, which increases drag and does not save wear.
DE. Ah, the things I've never thought of! Can't wait for daylight to go out and look at my four down Morris Minor Woody (Geo tracker 4x4 under it) to see if I can figure a way to put locking hubs on the back like I have on the front-----that would be tooooo cool!!!! Right now I have to get out every 150 miles and run the engine/tranny to sling some oil around in the transfer case.
I know, I know. After 150 miles I need to get out to take a p--- anyway so starting the toad is no big deal. Oh well, I'll just buy some adult depends :D
Thanks for the idea! Jack
Wrong!!!!!!, California and Nevada , If your toed is over 1,500LBs you need an auxiliary braking system and a breakaway system. Auxilary lighting is not required if you can see the lights on the tow vehicle but as a CHP friend of mine said,"You would be crazy not to have one". ;D
I've no dog in the ring----but I do enjoy starting a good fist fight!!!! I have a Blue Ox in my toad (its a POS and I've had to make many "substitution" type repairs because parts are unavailable, but it does work). I wouldn't drive around the block without it for all those "reasons" the lawyers milk.
After luvrbus's post I spent the afternoon chasing the Ca. vehicle code etc., and I'd have to agree with him that toads are not required to have extra brakes (at least in Ca). Of course the problem is really that Ca regs state that a vehicle must be able to stop within 50' from 20 mph. Good luck with that on my bus and no way with the toad sans extra brakes! It's a semantics thing. Vehicle VS trailer, and strictly speaking, a toad isn't a trailer bla, bla, bla.
Why all the effort? I'm BOARD! I've spent the last week watching the stitches in my hand heal thanks to a huge plywood sliver I garnered helping a friend on his project. What is it they say? Never let a good turn go un-retaliated! Wha, Wha. Like the rest of you, I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
Jack :D
So much great information here. REALLY appreciated.
What type of braking systems do you need (so you can go anywhere) for a tow bar?
Quote from: Dave5Cs on April 05, 2017, 07:05:38 PM
Wrong!!!!!!, California and Nevada , If your toed is over 1,500LBs you need an auxiliary braking system and a breakaway system. Auxilary lighting is not required if you can see the lights on the tow vehicle but as a CHP friend of mine said,"You would be crazy not to have one". ;D
Where is article number Dave
The big advantage to towing your car on a full car trailer is you can back it up. You can't back but a few feet when towing a car 4 down-or you have to disconnect to get the maneuver done.
This is why I'm carrying my car inside my truck. Good Luck, TomC
Everyone on here used to say that and I looked it up and sorry you are right, Trailers over 1500lbs only need an extra braking system. The only thing required is Safety cables and a breakaway system on trailers and towed's, lights on the rear.
I stand corrected...Wish I would have known that when I did mine, LOL
Dave
In regards to towing using air brake equipped vehicle, it appears what rules CA have are buried in 26508.
Quote from: Astro on April 06, 2017, 08:15:28 AM
In regards to towing using air brake equipped vehicle, it appears what rules CA have are buried in 26508.
I think that for a all air system, there is no mention of supplemental braking on a towed vehicle behind a RV and no mention of it in CA's DL648
Quote from: Dave5Cs on April 06, 2017, 08:13:37 AM
Everyone on here used to say that and I looked it up and sorry you are right, Trailers over 1500lbs only need an extra braking system. The only thing required is Safety cables and a breakaway system on trailers and towed's, lights on the rear.
I stand corrected...Wish I would have know that when I did mine, LOL
Dave
So, for a 4 wheel on the ground vehicle connected to a tow bar that's 5000 (ish) pounds, you do not need a braking system?
Quote from: Billysurf on April 06, 2017, 02:55:36 PM
So, for a 4 wheel on the ground vehicle connected to a tow bar that's 5000 (ish) pounds, you do not need a braking system?
They are probably a good safety feature but how good one works is anyone's guess,most vehicles of today have anti lock brakes and I wonder how that would affect the system.
If the manufactures would publish some real data it would help but all you get is BS "it improves stopping and saves your brakes"no graphs or nothing in stopping distance with one or without.
The way I see it on most brands like M/G,Air Force,Brake Buddy and other the front wheels are the only thing braking on the towed vehicle and a 1000 to 1500 bucks is a lot to pay for a system with no data to back it up JMO others here will have different ideas. If the brakes are good on the bus is what matters the most, that vehicle you are towing is going to have little affect on stopping the 30 to 50,000 lb bus
But on my Jeep I did not attach wiring to Jeep from bus. I ran a 4 wire plug at Bus and Jeep with a 4 rely converter I made. At the rear I added an extra bulb in the tail light housing that is my runners and Signal lights. I have the surge brake that is cabled to my brake peddle that activates my regular brake lights. So I did need the braking system. I did not want to wire the bus to the Jeep. Older Jeeps already have enough electrical problems without adding any more. Like when all my dash lights go out you have to hit the dash with your fist and then all is good. Lets not even mention Jeep radios. They play when they are darn good and ready and not before. ;D
Quote from: Dave5Cs on April 06, 2017, 05:02:47 PM... Older Jeeps already have enough electrical problems without adding any more. Like when all my dash lights go out you have to hit the dash with your fist and then all is good. Lets not even mention Jeep radios. They play when they are darn good and ready and not before. ;D
Dave. Man. There are a few people on here talking about using British vehicles as toads. You're gonna get NO sympathy from me on piddling little things like this!! :0 :) :0 ")
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on April 06, 2017, 06:05:39 PM
Dave. Man. There are a few people on here talking about using British vehicles as toads. You're gonna get NO sympathy from me on piddling little things like this!! :0 :) :0 ")
Seems to me that the perfect toad behind a DoubleDecker would be a Series Land Rover! ;) Then you could be DoubleBrit.
Bruce you are so right!!!... ;D
Quote from: DoubleEagle on April 06, 2017, 06:22:31 PMSeems to me that the perfect toad behind a DoubleDecker would be a Series Land Rover! ;) Then you could be DoubleBrit.
Or Triple - I already have a Norton Commando production racer. On the other hand, I could pour a quart of 15W40 2-stroke engine oil on my head and set my hair on fire -- that would probably hurt less.
I owned a 2000 Range Rover I bought new never again ,I kept that toy for almost a year and it had to go
Quote from: Billysurf on April 06, 2017, 02:55:36 PM
So, for a 4 wheel on the ground vehicle connected to a tow bar that's 5000 (ish) pounds, you do not need a braking system?
In my opinion, in an emergency stop, any extra braking you can get is a good thing ! :o
Quote from: luvrbus on April 06, 2017, 08:11:18 PMI owned a 2000 Range Rover I bought new never again ,I kept that toy for almost a year and it had to go
If I had a $ for every time I heard the words "never again" during my years with Land Rover, I'd have enough money to buy a Prevost.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on April 07, 2017, 05:46:21 AM
If I had a $ for every time I heard the words "never again" during my years with Land Rover, I'd have enough money to buy a Prevost.
Towing it should be ok,lol driving one the 10 to 12 mpg really sucked.My wife has a 1977 Spitfire she has owned since 1980(41,000 miles) that thing leaks oil from the head lights I think
I bought a new Mini in 1977 for $2900. Fun little car, but the transmission ground itself to a pulp within the first year.
I think the only good thing the British ever made is HP sauce...
JC
Quote from: luvrbus on April 07, 2017, 06:44:04 AMTowing it should be ok,lol driving one the 10 to 12 mpg really sucked.My wife has a 1977 Spitfire she has owned since 1980(41,000 miles) that thing leaks oil from the head lights I think
When I worked for Norton in England in the 1970s, we had to process a claim for an oil leak from the headlamp wiring harness. (It was for real - there was a tight rubber cover on the tacho drive at the engine and the drive cable filled up with oil when the o-ring failed but the cover was tied into the wiring harness to run up the triple clamp and then to the tach gauge. It filled the whole front-end wiring harness with oil!)
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on April 06, 2017, 07:15:29 PM
Or Triple - I already have a Norton Commando production racer. On the other hand, I could pour a quart of 15W40 2-stroke engine oil on my head and set my hair on fire -- that would probably hurt less.
I almost bought a Norton Commando 750 in Hong Kong back in 1968, but I thought about the potential road rash, and bought stereo equipment instead. It was and is a cool bike.
Quote from: luvrbus on April 06, 2017, 08:11:18 PM
I owned a 2000 Range Rover I bought new never again ,I kept that toy for almost a year and it had to go
I had a 50th Anniversary edition Discovery (1998) that was also plagued with quality control problems that I departed from at a loss, but I still have three Series Land Rover 88's. Those were the origin of Land Rover before they became gentrified and complicated. It seems like the old Series LR's pop up in all kinds of ads when they want a rough Safari look, but they don't seem to use the newer models unless it is a Land Rover commercial.
We use a 1999 Jeep Cherokee. If the transfer case is in neutral, it does not matter where the transmission is. You could even leave it in park. I was told by the local CHP, possibly in error, that I needed a breakaway. We bought a Brake Buddy on Craigslist for around $100 or so. I have no idea if the thing does any good. I always set it for the least sensitivity since I really do not want it interfering. But if I was in an accident, it could point to it and contend that I was doing everything to be safe.
There have been times when we had to disconnect the Jeep in order to make a hairpin turn going up a steep incline. That is relatively easy since you can back the car out of the way and drive it when once it's disconnected. What would you do with a trailer in that situation?
Being able to tow the trailer with both the coach and the toad would be a powerful option, for many things beyond navigating tight places.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
with a trailer if you have to back up you can up to about a 70 degree angle but flat tow it's only about 20 degrees and after that it will cost $$$
we all do it our way
dave
True about the trailer. When it comes to backing up we prefer to trailer our toad. We have towed both ways in the past. Being our travel direction for 99+ percent of the time is forward we prefer four down, it has enabled us to put the bus in places where it wouldn't couldn't normally go... Goose is the word! :-)
True about the trailer. When it comes to backing up we prefer to trailer our toad. We have towed both ways in the past. Being our travel direction for 99+ percent of the time is forward we prefer four down, it has enabled us to put the buses in places where it wouldn't couldn't normally go... Goose is the word! :-)
Hi Billy!
I'm in Richmond as well...nice to know there's another nut in the vicinity.
I've got the blue ox and a Jeep. BUT dad towed a GMC short bed step side with 2WD. He made a set of tail lights and attached them separately to the truck, and in the truck went the golf cart. But the truck engine always ran when being towed.
Whatever you do, be careful. He and mom were behind dad's best friend (same bus, same tow) on the way to FLA. They had a radio system to talk to each other. Dad noticed the car on his friends bus was not pulling properly. Before he could grab the walkie talkie...the car and the hitch came off the rear of the bus and went careening across three lanes of the road before landing in the ditch.
The only difference between the two set-ups was the weld job. Dad was a great welder...but he took the bus to a weld shop for that job. His friend, also a great welder, did it himself.
I'm not trying to be the negative nancy, just sharing a frightening experience to prevent it in the future.
My toad I swear a Jeep Wrangler . I have a bike lift on back for mt full dress hd and my toad behind that with a brake buddy . I van see in coach when my brakes are on and I set sensitivity at 4. We just got back from 3000 mile trip . It works awesome! Of toad is auto so I put transfer case in neutral and tranny in park per jeep.
Just finished an upgrade on the brakes for my toad. I'd been using an older Brake Buddy and the air pump went out. A replacement pump turned out to be unavailable so I ran an air line from my bus to the Brake Buddy and all was good-----until the printed circuit board gave up. Also unavailable. Four automotive relays and a couple of buck relays later and the system works better than new. I combined the Brake Buddy with a new Kelsey Hayes progressive electric trailer brake actuator which combines an accelerometer with a manual overide (in the bus). I did a bunch of stopping trials with the bus alone and with the toad. California law states that a vehicle must be able to stop from 20 mph in no more than 50 feet. Without the toad Honeysuckle Rose easily stops in 35 feet and with the toad and the repaired Brake Buddy, the stopping distance is the same. I didn't think to test the system without toad brakes but I haven't forgotten the "this thing isn't going to stop" feeling I had a couple of times before with the original Brake Buddy.
I won't go into it other than to say brake rotor temperatures on the bus were way down after the upgrade on the Brake buddy. I expect this is due to the fact that the toad brakes now apply immediately along with the bus brakes rather than only at speeds above 30 mph as originally designed.
Jack
Quote from: lostagain on April 07, 2017, 07:02:36 AM
I bought a new Mini in 1977 for $2900. Fun little car, but the transmission ground itself to a pulp within the first year.
I think the only good thing the British ever made is HP sauce...
JC
BTW the engine in the P51 Mustang is a British Rolls Royce unit designed by the British- built by Packard- despite Yanks ignoring the little aspect of the design itself while citing it as a 'Packard' unit.
Quote from: oltrunt on April 09, 2017, 09:05:44 PM
I won't go into it other than to say brake rotor temperatures on the bus were way down after the upgrade on the Brake buddy. I expect this is due to the fact that the toad brakes now apply immediately along with the bus brakes rather than only at speeds above 30 mph as originally designed.
Jack
Brake rotors on the Bus?
...and the only time Our bus EVER had a problem with brakes was exactly as you described ...not thinking you were going to stop. Dumb jerk that I foolishly allowed to drive the bus pulled a trailer. Never bothered to even look at anything. When I finally looked, 1/8" crack in the drums on the front. Why? Dumb jerk never bothered to understand if the rear seals leak all over the rear, the front does all the stopping. The point? For safety sake, if you haven't already...make sure there are no cracks anywhere :)
Yup, disc on the front and drums on the back of my little bus--no cracks though. Thanks for the good reminder. Jack
Good news and happy, safe travels.
How'd you get the hitch on your 102? I've been meaning to add one to mine and can't get a straight answer on the best way to do it.
We don't have a hitch - yet- Sawyer Bus Sales in VA recommended a place for us and we are planning on making an appointment in a few weeks: B & K Truck Accessories
2135 Roanoke St
Christiansburg VA 24073-2511
540-394-3330
Quote from: daveola on April 10, 2017, 12:54:37 PM
How'd you get the hitch on your 102? I've been meaning to add one to mine and can't get a straight answer on the best way to do it.
Dave -For the most part, every hitch on a bus is custom built.
Are you still in the SF Bay Area? If so, my friend Marc over in Stockton custom fabricated a hitch for my MCI for a very reasonable price (which I will NOT quote in public other than to say it was less than $500.)
If you (or anyone else) is interested in having Marc build one for you, send me a PM and I'll give you his contact info.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)