Hi Folks,
Some background:
I've been looking into buying a vintage bus RV conversion for a couple years, we're now getting ready to make a purchase sometime soon. I've been looking closely at buses for sale nearby for several months and yesterday I went and looked at one we think is a good candidate; would appreciate any insight or advice you may have.
We've owned a travel trailer in the past and did several long-ish (3-4week) trips with it when our kids were younger. They're all adults now, so our intent is for my wife and I to use the bus for some winter getaways (we live in Edmonton, Canada) and for some weekends in the summer. I do auto racing, so sometimes we'd be pulling an open trailer w/race car, ~ 5000lb total and using the bus for accommodation at the track.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UcAKXAaJCrLMMdGsT550NHlnSlwZQcVYMDpRm0ljXv9tJqfHhmTKtdEByHa1nvyl3iqhTqJVwURQUtExxr3jjVyX_7IfZGBuTazB-6btVT_GvnKz2VfP2nQXwzwtNrN1DsVdC-1YqK3a4725JFXYpKiZJO6J6u7glDNDDMU_clVAOJc7Rq9r5Gig1J5cEkPTvZq84byEpUcSmrqlCuC8ey_vr91bDRQFMLP4dcZ5HG4bwHEBzT8BEamFlbyIeUO6dxhiLXCVhbgAXKZ0YQIu7svGeTQAfBZoZFgUlOgK6w-7asV4vZjNnuW7qCxvdB6y3d1BqqLlzRZGPdH-4ieKaFLeJd578_4Rq_nihz24_8Y4t7TMrbWQt4MORGdL7IY6thw1pLQ_20nbgvjQcK4PFF_HbioxvLhdP6sul0SVFZdtGwp1zoLlpebKAtjgvvRm_5nvwOPGSoD9mccaDz8w6Xl89cGNL5O9_B1hRMvHPGZ_3FJ1wjDE-TnYP_AGT4k_orb483gcm8XqAERejWMAKiA5BtvdFpNGztSSMMj_TYJwU5KMAkg1XfOOeESP1JhbRVHGsncK7W8gg4b9RHcQ9NVArN_VKSeuGbmtU7C5YJa2bSYLwJYebQ=w800)
We know we're buying a project, not a finished unit, but we hope to make some use of it as we make improvements. We've done large home reno projects before, and my wife is onboard and interested in working on the interior upgrades and decoration. I'm comfortable with automotive mechanical work, though of course I've never worked on a bus before but I'm wanting to learn.
The bus we've found is a 1975 GMC Buffalo - P8M4905A-1181. The current seller has had it for 2 years and really hasn't changed or done much to it in that time but the previous previous owner (PPO?) did quite a bit of work. The history as it's told to me (no documentation for anything of course...):
- Converted in the late 80's probably (int. decor seems to support that) and PPO did quite a bit of work making upgrades
- 2 x 65 gal fresh water tanks & new pump
- Maint/updates of suspension (at least some new airbags)
- New tires all around
- Updated/replaced appliances & plumbing - fridge, sink, tankless HW heater, toilet, vanity/sink
- "Rebuillt" or "refreshed" engine
- New electrical for coach: 24 to 12v converter, 120v breaker panel & wiring AC/DC converter, 12v fuse panel
- The bus was brought to Alberta from another province and underwent a provincial inspection and some required upgrades when the PO bought it 2 yrs ago. Has current registration/insurance as an RV.
Other notes:
- The bus currently has no generator.
- There has been some past leaks in the roof, but repaired by PPO. PO says he's had no leaks.
- There are many broken (cracked) windows.
- Some windows seem to have leaks where the sliding panes meet. Guessing bad weather seals.
- The bus odometer shows 862,xxx (miles I assume)
- Bus has travelled about 6000 km since the engine work was done.
- There are many new hose clamps and new stainless braided hoses on the engine that do support there having been some work done in the not too distant past.
- The plumbing for sinks, bath, toilet etc looks fairly new, also supports story of PPO doing upgrades from original conversion.
- I looked for every steel structure I could find and could only see minor surface rust.
- There is some kind of heater unit behind the driver that might be an original? It's behind a screwed down mesh panel and I could not get a good look at it.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zstFTUgfmE19TBpaZi-CzLq7KvVp4y6aeFrJbtwazPBPOi7P50AS6adEAad1YHfPW0NwIuld36BuY7QYTstA8rLY-ky5X-jX-igHMZEAPgnjlYCBE5ViN1CpUeEOG2idPfdsbf4tEVMI7jSsT3HtelqPfq93z5ECICTp2W7WdQExNy0vQZi__wN31WmaZNS0w7K7YhwK1Oqx1F9bzBDeAMASnbkDlneAqLl5d_W2rvqSOTORAetmLnz5TKUrzxEIzBycJiisiCr8huYkV7WtlsJ8oMWvotneqIG9D22c43aJ6soacm6K9mFnoNQrltiJzjjj5KN1bLcrMsFoZkhz7fzyGBa-hDj_1ieok9Ehm9KO9NWitddxQQtc9Z0ZT0BaHBzX6zGdpwGEeYLOMlhVKMrMCSt7QCwbPvTxom5VToT8snMvFSqHmLVglo25Y-D_Ju2GHLgYqQG_3OrzHKdxR6_Ed1evO1nruQZ4mghV1h-TJEanYPLwUSeRhqMzWuyO5bosPs4nQQObIGU7WPRBNjBP_d6ImKANKleAhg7QXNw9TYxVBzhKdGWIlK3FpAckYEiYmnGmt4L93MpuW5CaCBSjJ3__jUm6BH2sV1XswjMDTqKdejRYMQEjhh_ox6g_hCcOHEihDL8paY483zTz2OUchsSPRuFp9J2LgimnVjw=w492-h873-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/StEDKyt6iDGG9BCgIuRlWqZ93GFK_SUpVasqjf30rxRitjg_ZC3qGiwDCMUNha-SsckhjI6Hr-x3SJzvKvHWUGjel3_NG6fPB6zG3jdxB2_P9okhk3AjJJfHMWWQzemFFVuiWiOZ0MvEIrxfM-ZWJd0rafEbSuAheokuw7kEFIMZ0N-MUvLNndCXLlV_hc7ptU9nWPAaEBSUJBvhb0a2ep9NJeEbjPII9xvnYXjsGYb1MuyK3Lh9dy9_n7XA0ccsMCWoKuozclz5qIZY_wPx1SKK5iT3nw_jBLOGjdb01KkD_74EVpuzf2s_3d3x57tGSdL8HJ7FgwzmqoJsH6DIsp4HbRqHplSgOPjbXdV2Zuk2sSB57_ogd-woz05R2adqeqyPzdDKZzOUR4WlMiihgREuHV-owDSOLZe4V0YoH0f0ps6siDNLQyg2Z2Xh060B__qQBKlZNitGmU7znk-wSFDBncJdb5OEe-gppK-L-FKnpwrBQJe9cGBO_2nq41TKSQPc-uvwgnI-ls7Be_5RxxwKvbF-xVAbFgdagllvI4cr04H6BgapaZlq4OsRAWWxvgTA4xt9RXc8jidII-eYEKQkeXPbdKA8qP5VlWYDA5TyWx_86ZIOBXYt6j4eq1tmWu9YyFmjQNNue2SN70U_-u3oTHz8xYsf9iiTe3gxjvo=w800)
The bus started quickly (was last started 2 wks ago) and after some warmup was running at a nice idle. I made a video of the engine bay with engine running. https://goo.gl/photos/pLTNnhnFTNRz3jX68
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UCZDByCsANwaRX_GneBQMQc_lZv6xURmfFoenLprD7dSFihvrzxM97-e63VNzHhSLJ4DRPzobmOz4ZN06NAX7L60HbPloELhSi4GVkaW4Q6UccZS-FbYLAgJYq7LhlCJM24oaJAz776_-o2IO_cBUV3ZLDPNrTF2vvqeybs5w08uAF-OyHbmmJD-GEXBWZXjHFlQQBFJBqaPVS5zlzoEkL-KKwiNrXiBwJZKDf-ANNDTM1uoyzrjE1tpF8u0rhtXCcaw133JvMDNj1DEAdshlgUJxQfELdj06pFRb9ONtsLUEseXXxJWGM-06U_UoU0BB6o0iLAZwmuKf5F0OgWG2ULbfP0dc5ccqW8sfYpls6X35hxBTys31REKf4gv3retxX66IxlZobxx6uQ0sUZbSTxgakwA7Uj_68pdyS20085-HiBnxSnwTsqdow_g6AH0q_tfnvrD6JJ8o2dmjjOilvozmdGfWBtGWzwXFUPZMGbsATBMRj5JwGPuV6eF4vUVuYAKqQhsINYDN0bmOv0sg4RTnXL5p-tDuFDAqGXRPPC546PAe27WEpzXgWP6ra9PLMr3GixP2hFYXcvn3fJm28Jk9VGkW9BgMgjPzpbFUWbRO7nP23xmGqD2SpWnh0QYApK2301BEu3NRXBpvvfbLhY3bMIU4kjjq2eu6SSTMk4=w800)
From my reading here, I knew to look into the storage bays and under the driver seat to see the condition of the steel there. I could not see anything other than some minor surface rust (and lots of grease & dust!). But I'm not sure I was looking precisely at the potential problem areas. My photos are in the album below.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/fgg5PnrQT4c7xfdCYRSwbnfy3KRnV2pC-VlVtuaV5d6Na-8CQ6CMO-8q783UwwSrC0ff7ixyAeVwIkZtQMg5B6PPq2BzyJLPqX7YXj-DE8yc8CGKi_T1jCCzzGR5yiMv6gOQW2zi7uPmWCU3yawolYStRk8T8vCMNO9KEi46aMMfEnXmaBVnbbwdpJIXraq17PDGmBmzwhHxZpj6ejhXSgFkcfe8u1PgK09YdTuWEoVHuvLINtuVzeF6_ea3-yGqf0JcPAMUcQo3ZuizPLaCAmYJ8WJ2qoP4BxfZf7aFuc6WKKZJsgysYxNeoUf0z7PLLrvbKy5CfnJWYfTySlPS90NzsLEFEbQPknHrzf42E51ydfodrXBaqoIqvolZpq03RC2rgcfphCpt9jjaAheCgK3CwVRHW4w5bHkBk_L7YK0__ypiVX-bVaVA2xy2hFttzVWqPIkBZmIA5dAFrHzHR1ylS_oOgehHQUIjZCW3811-kqeNBWe3CFJbqPl4jKRm0F53u3JbTGfKs_wIooznPMoxEGMZl_ZWoC8-INu5qcb33BjA0ODspnh3A6VdHK_zpd6Y7Kvz5tajG0ruwnDK2PI8uIFSX2TPGPxmHQ04JAlSmsiHYhO4Ya6o0Oe7z1dg7ZF2tSwfcv_fkr_7aCq8B029N922dj_OqtvJsX2v1go=w800)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/vM9dH16j3mX4jMDilR90w3lJcKU8vHW-cUgmquSAqMwY7cQtT9eOignOKDW_f0e9ysi3c3vI5hSrbl3wPVAi7i1oj-as_gv1KVXRXD8ISjdOD9QQw-pS5CsJDB8rGh1hApN1pae4n0h_d70P6olFsEwxKqe00VuOUS3S1Wsw2HIG8tNND223Pchjqzd49YGCdhwFoCt0V5EHt5SuaJRl_B8hq8ECWRY2NTRtqyP2y9bu4pTiSxr5NwpNgnDwgMczcBeXFXLeNMFsMiGx5iVjJfSukyTyyLpv5yvVGeQQvM93f-dt4IuD12UzysVpIqlO-86NeG4BOKSXULOsvLKyOZ-rX18td3xUm2gngh6s6xZjxh3IKAKtJOH59JoSmGH6sSWTPaWl_V0zKWzs7q7oQ1Zsrp-nMH0MvgRMH7iCPVbslD6jQ_U-Nld89E541ArDogJ4yWx1yNJLMXUPv4SL4HOl1M9cFlAJUJDfpBD7aF_UFNnMegIy8N7QIRNAyGWS4QVlZfAzALOil5i3z_wPUizmIbDkQGG4Pw83YBIsf3_UtyGVxmahvNkPDrku7nHvWwXu9bdrzdBucGuBWZbA9D_AkMmR2qVoLTXNtjNoS62XLzcm6pQiu6jTCCw1qkbgWHstXDoxprV9i3RUTg3a2s5_nI24b2s5ok-oDc0x4NU=w800)
https://goo.gl/photos/Jy8mfG1mo9fVYT2z7
I'd really appreciate any input from the knowledgeable people here.
The owner is asking CAD$8K (~USD$6K) which seems reasonable if everything checks out as it appears. Our next step if we decide to proceed will be to have a professional mechanical inspection done to make sure there's nothing fatal or $$$ that I can't see and am not qualified to assess. So I'm looking for your advice to help decide if I should move forward.
Thanks in advance!
i have seen way worse.
$6000.00 is as close to free for a bus that will drive away that you will find...
Does not look bad, from what we can see. What transmission? Does it have power steering? Have you priced replacing broken glass, or eliminating the windows in question? If it has a 4 speed Spicer manual and manual steering, it will be more challenging to drive, and it will not be geared very low for hills or towing.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on April 02, 2017, 12:12:30 PM
Does not look bad, from what we can see. What transmission? Does it have power steering? Have you priced replacing broken glass, or eliminating the windows in question? If it has a 4 speed Spicer manual and manual steering, it will be more challenging to drive, and it will not be geared very low for hills or towing.
If like Walter says, are you prepared mentally and physically for a manual trans w/o power steering. Also, have an oil analysis done before committing to anything. These old 2 strokes will run on broken legs, if you get my drift. Good luck and welcome to the board,
Will
If you are considering buying ANY bus the best advice I can give you is to immerse yourself in as many Bus Conversion Magazines as you can. At the absolute minimum, sign up for a subscription to Bus Conversion Magazine today which you can do in our BCM Store. There are monthly articles about converting, building, maintaining, traveling and living in a bus conversion. If you can afford to, buy as many back issues as you can afford. I can almost guarantee you that you will save that money over and over if you have never owned a bus conversion in the past. We offer "Bundles" of magazines at a reduced price. Call the office for more info. (657) 221-0432.
1975 is a good year for the Buffalo. It came from the factory with sheppard integral power steering, air throttle and 2 circuit brake system.
Towing with a GM bus is problematic because of the rear design. Tongue weight is the big issue because the hitch has to be attached to the engine cradle which is already supporting 4000+ pounds of running gear. It can be done with a well designed hitch, but most GM guys say tongue weight should be limited to 300 pounds. That might be hard to do with a 5000 pound trailer.
Start ability with the 4 speed will be an issue, as well. Any thing another than level ground will be hard on the clutch and it doesn't take much abuse to destroy one.
Looking at all the photos, I see some rotten wood at one of the window sills, so the windows have been leaking for a while. A common problem when this happens is rotten floors where the bay door torsion bars mount. You should open the bay doors and check for soft floors around the torsion bars.
You'll want to check the date code on the tires to determine their real age.
At the asking price, this bus has a lot of potential. That being said, It can't hurt to offer him less, since there is no documentation.
Bob
I'd be surprised if it didn't have power steering. I drove and instructed on 4903's & 4905's, some of much earlier vintage, all had PS. The non-synchromesh manual transmission does take getting used to, but I never had anyone who couldn't pick it up. Only issue was two buses we bought in the first year of air throttles, RPM's died so quickly that I always had trouble. Other guys had no trouble with them. Earlier years (cable throttles), and later year air-throttles were OK. Every bus is unique, even two buses with consecutive serial numbers would shift a little differently -- but not very different from idiosyncrasies in any two vehicles.
The significant thing to think about with 4903's & 05's is the long wheelbase. The way I instructed, to make a turn in downtown Boston, go by the corner, halfway down the next block, then think about turning the wheel. Old days, if you took a corner in a 35 foot transit with the right rear wheel 6 inches from the curb, make the same turn in a 40 foot transit, you'd run over the curb. Same thing in a 4905, you'd go over the curb, the sidewalk, and maybe hit the building.
They were a fine coach, just had to treat them with respect.
Arthur
Looks pretty good for that kind of money.I'd jump n it if it were me. With a standard transmission, it should have the 4:27 rear end ratio. It should start out easily. Just ease out the clutch and governor should pick up engine speed prior to adding throttle. You can dismantle windows to replace cracked glass, and Luke can probably get window seals. Assume roof leaks and you'll need to investigate and repair. Since roof and bows are aluminum, there won't be rot problems there.
Looks pretty good for that kind of money.I'd jump n it if it were me. With a standard transmission, it should have the 4:27 rear end ratio. It should start out easily. Just ease out the clutch and governor should pick up engine speed prior to adding throttle. You can dismantle windows to replace cracked glass, and Luke can probably get window seals. Assume roof leaks and you'll need to investigate and repair. Since roof and bows are aluminum, there won't be rot problems there.
Yes, it has power steering. You can see the pump in one of the engine pictures. That mesh enclosure behind driver's seat could be an air return for HVAC. My 1975 shell has one.
Thank you for all the responses. The bus does have power steering and 4 speed manual non-synchro transmission. I've learned from racing cars how to double-clutch, heel-and-toe and do rev-match no-clutch shifting. So I don't think learning the trans will be an issue.
I will look closer at the wood areas beneath the leaking windows around the bay doors. The bus has a lightweight hitch on it now (just bolted to the bumper), but I'm prepared to get a shop to design and install a proper custom hitch. I don't know tongue weight off hand, but it's likely not much because I can balance the car easily over the trailer axles. The real issue is likely when it all starts bouncing down the road - worst case, I'm OK with using a "trailer toad" to deal with towing.
I did a little digging and that heater behind the mesh is a Suburban propane heater.
Anything else that I should look carefully at? I tried to dig around as much as I could but don't know the specifics.
Cheers,
Regarding shifting, here is RJ Long's article on shifting a bus transmission:
http://busnut.com/forum/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=41 (http://busnut.com/forum/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=41)
JC
I'm new as well, currently searching for a used conversion.
The most important and critical facts about the bus is the "Rebuillt" or "refreshed" engine and state of the transmission. Unless you have detailed invoices including what was done and who did the rebuild, walk away. Same with tranny.
Although you are willing to commit time and energy, one thing much harder to avoid is buying parts. Make very sure you get a good sense of bus parts as they are many times more than auto parts.
Six grand is tempting but do your research here and read the many, many stories about costly repairs. Even replacing the set of air bags all around will make that seemingly good buy not look so good anymore. God forbid you end up doing a major in-frame or out-of-frame motor rebuild and the check to buy the bus will seem like chump change.
Be very careful, there are so many ways to die in this "hobby". Good luck.
Check the cooling system close, both bus models can have major cooling problems,on a 4905 check the brake drums those are not to be had any where if needed.
I understand you can convert the drums to different drums but no telling what it would cost,the MCI brake drums are off the shelf Webb drums fwiw.
The exhaust system on a 4905 is another problem you cannot find new parts when needed for the system.Both are good buses but it will get down to how both were maintained in their previous life.Towing a trailer IMO the MCI is your best bet with the tag axle
Good Luck
If you are under 5'10" tall, then the GMC will be fine with the A/C's hanging down. I prefer the MCI's with T drive, 6'10" headroom and in the MCI 102C3, 102" wide with huge windows. Just because the bus is cheap from the beginning, doesn't mean it won't cost alot later. Sometimes, buying a more expensive bus in better shape with more modern equipment will be less in the long run. Good Luck, Tomc
Quote from: TomC on April 03, 2017, 08:06:26 AM
If you are under 5'10" tall, then the GMC will be fine with the A/C's hanging down. I prefer the MCI's with T drive, 6'10" headroom and in the MCI 102C3, 102" wide with huge windows. Just because the bus is cheap from the beginning, doesn't mean it won't cost alot later. Sometimes, buying a more expensive bus in better shape with more modern equipment will be less in the long run. Good Luck, Tomc
And if you have an articulated bus of ANY kind it is illegal in the state fo Kentucky as KY considers it to be a Class A bus and Class A buses are illegal in that state! (just ask Grayline of Nashville, as they found out hard way when they used to run them up & down I-24 from Nashville to Metropolis, IL to the casino everyday until a DOT officer was hanging out with a certain wrecker who was hooking up to a broke down tractor trailer and the wrecker driver asked "
now just how does Grayline get away with running Class A buses in KY, but we were told they are illegal here?" The DOT officer went to his car and was on the radio for a few minutes and came back and said "Hey good talking to you, gotta go!" As The wrecker driver was headed back toward Paducah he came across a Grayline H5-60 bus pulled over by a DOT officer!)
;D BK ;D
Quote from: majormojo on April 02, 2017, 05:54:18 PM
I've learned from racing cars how to double-clutch, heel-and-toe and do rev-match no-clutch shifting. So I don't think learning the trans will be an issue.
Jim -I have to chuckle when I read a newbie's comments that shifting an air-throttled, wet-clutch, 4-spd manual 4905 won't be an issue. I've seen this combination bring extremely experienced bus drivers to their knees in frustration, and "hot-shot" truckers simply pull over and get out, refusing to attempt to drive one anymore. Double-clutching won't be an issue, once you figure out the rhythm, heel and toe will roll your ankle worse than NBA player's and is somewhat dangerous on the street with a 15-ton vehicle at speed. As for rev-matching no-clutch shifting. . . well, the air throttle will definitely challenge you attempting this - especially downshifting on a hill. OTOH, once you figure out and master the idiosyncrasies, they're a ball to drive!
P8M4905A-1181 was delivered new in September of 1975 as fleet number 237 to Las Vegas-Tonopah-Reno Stage Lines, HQ'd in Las Vegas, NV. LTR was an excellent carrier that took very good care of their equipment until the original owners retired and sold it off. At that point, the new owners literally ran the company into the ground, sadly. However, the remaining positive is that these are SW US vehicles, not NE Rust Belt units, so corrosion will be at a minimum.
4905s with the manual transmission came with a 4.375:1 rear axle ratio, thus lower-geared than their 35' little brothers. The lower gearing helps get the heavier coach rolling from a start, the downside is that you'll run about 100 rpm more at the same road speed. Sure, this will affect your fuel mileage, which, in reality, is a moot point in a vehicle that has the aerodynamics of a rounded brick.
This model year will have the Sheppard integral power steering - no upgrade needed!
Highly recommend using a Trailer Toad to pull your race car trailer. You're absolutely right that it's easy to balance the car on the trailer - it's the "up and down" pounding on the hitch that's the problem. The TT eliminates that completely. But you will need a receiver-style hitch on the rear of the coach. For the $3700 they want for the HD model, I consider that cheap insurance vs the cost of repairing a damaged chassis. www.trailertoad.com (http://www.trailertoad.com)
Don't know how many conversions you've looked at, but don't jump at the first one you see. Remember the adage: "It's easy to buy a bus - it's much, much more difficult to sell a mistake!"
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
"Rebuilt" or "refreshed" engine and state of the transmission. Unless you have detailed invoices including what was done and who did the rebuild, walk away. Same with tranny.
good luck finding that bus for $6000.00 ???
It must be the V drive and the clutch set up on a GM that requires a knack to shift,Eagle and MCI both used a non sync 4 speeds they didn't require any special skill to shift all I ever used was the clutch for was to get one rolling.
I guess being old school driving the old 4 speed crash boxes in trucks with the Brown Lipe 3 or 4 speed auxiliary helped me
Quote from: RJ on April 04, 2017, 09:16:13 AM
I have to chuckle when I read a newbie's comments that shifting an air-throttled, wet-clutch, 4-spd manual 4905 won't be an issue.
Didn't mean to imply that I already know everything or that I expect to heel-and-toe or no-clutch shift the bus. Just that I've learned several shifting techniques in the past and I'm confident I can learn something new again. Message received: I've been warned!
Thank you very much for the detailed info and background on this bus. That is nice to know. I appreciate your advice.
Cheers,
The comments about the non-synchro 4 speed shifting are quite accurate. If you enjoy a challenge, then go for it, but your left leg and the right side of the brain (which coordinates the left side of the body, and is the creative half) will be overworked and tested. Back when a lot of buses had 4-speed Spicer's, there were not as many long traffic jams that required starting up and going through the gears so much. My first Eagle has it, and I have taken it where buses should not go from Maine to Texas to South Dakota. However, there were times when my left leg got the shakes from all the action, and my Eagle has an air-assisted clutch. My second Eagle has the Allison 740, and retirement is much better.
Documentation on prior engine work means almost nothing to me. Too easy to fake documents. Also easy enough to damage one in a few miles if you overheat it, run it low on oil, etc.
I'm more interested in how it behaves during a cold start, after it warms up, & under load at speed.
As an example, I bought a Scenicruiser that had been parked for over 5 years. No paperwork at all. Tag on engine was a greyhound rebuild tag from 1971 - old style block with the big oval air box covers. It had 1/2 tank of old fuel in it.
We hooked up an old group 31 battery to see if the electrical system worked. Bumped the starter & it started right up. Ran great on the 700+ mile trip home. Still runs GREAT.
So, don't let paperwork get in the way of finding a good coach.
PS,
If the clutch & shifter linkages are properly adjusted (& not worn out), shifting won't be that bad & was easy to pick up - as long as I reminded myself that I was 30 ft away from the transmission.
Lots of great info, good to see many opinions on the bus. I'm going to arrange for a professional inspection next. I have a friend who is actually a HD (bus) mechanic, though he's across the country right now, he's suggested some reputable shops.
I assume that a thorough PPI will include things like the engine, suspension and braking/air systems. With a car, I'd pull a couple wheels and inspect brake lines, pads/shoes, rotors/drums, suspension bushings, etc. Is something similar normal for a bus inspection? Is there anything specific I should ask for or ensure to have inspected? I would think that something like a pressure or leak test of the air systems would be part of a "normal" inspection. I'll be sure to clarify what will be done, but I want to be aware of anything that might be out of the ordinary due to the age or rarity of this bus.
When I viewed the bus, it started quite easily and ran (idled) smoothly. What do I look/listen for when I drive it at speed and under load?
Go for a drive, city and highway.
On highway, check for torque steer. At some cruising speed below the governor, apply full throttle to accelerate, then lift throttle to decel. On/off a couple times.
Did the coach change direction in either state? Worn/loose suspension down the back will move according to the load on the back axle, and "steer" the coach.
And fool peeps that there's something wrong up front.
And check all that other stuff...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
A thorough DOT pre trip inspection will reveal problems if any. Look on the Ontario ministry of transport site for pre trip inspection for transport trucks and commercial buses. The British Columbia ICBC site has thttp://www.icbc.com/driver-licensing/Documents/drive_commercial_veh_full.pdf. This is one of the best pre trips I have seen.
JC
Have you checked the brake lines, the brake drums and shoes? Does the aur leak etc? Is there more than half an inch play in the belts? Any illegal welds?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
No belts on a GM
Bob
Quote from: wildbob24 on April 05, 2017, 07:18:36 PM
No belts on a GM
Bob
Is that good or bad ;D, how you doing Bob long time since we heard from you.Do you by change have a muffler collector for a 4106 you would like to sell
I've got an appointment set up to have a PPI done next Monday. I spent some time on the phone and got some details on the inspection process. In summary, the shop explained they use the same paperwork for a PPI as they do for commercial inspections. This is the inspection standard followed; it seems quite comprehensive:
http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType41/Production/CVIManual.pdf (http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType41/Production/CVIManual.pdf)
If the PPI reveals nothing of major concern I will perform the driving tests that have been recommended here and then make a decision.
QuoteI've got an appointment set up to have a PPI done next Monday
How did you find a place that is qualified to inspect these old two stroke buses? I've had great difficulty here in California. There are very few legally running on the roads here, basically converted buses only and a handful still operating as exempted in fleets.
There are lots of shops that can do a proper inspection on any vintage coach?
This is about the road worthiness of the vehicle.
Reality check: a GM coach is worth ~$3000 in scrap aluminum up here.
The gamble is on the other $3000, which is really less than that, as it includes more bits and pieces that can be sold off to cut the loss.
Beyond a tailpipe inspection, Cold start, what smoke comes out, does it clear up in what time/temperature, leaking externally? airbox drains dry, drip or puke, do all the gears work...
How much money/effort is reasonable to spend to protect less than $3000?
The PPI inspection has a dual purpose, check out the chassis, and a regulated step for getting the vehicle licensed in many jurisdictions.
Don't discount the value of good old common sense and perspective. Internet forums have a way of doing that...
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Fair enough with a max investment of 6k usd. the max risk is less than 3k as you say in this case. at this price level what is expected as fair value is not much so not much needed in PPI. Agree a mechanically inclined buyer can do a basic road test to check that it stops and starts without much groaning, grinding, or other strange noises and doesn't shake and rattle too much. A good look into the engine compartment should give a pretty good idea of condition.
As the risk(cost) increases, a more thorough PPI is warranted. To me, someone without any first hand bus experience, spending $500 to get a solid PPI on a bus at 20K or higher seems money well spent.
Quote from: luvrbus on April 05, 2017, 08:56:02 PM
Is that good or bad ;D, how you doing Bob long time since we heard from you.Do you by change have a muffler collector for a 4106 you would like to sell
Clifford,
I don't know if no belts is good or bad. I like it, but I'm a GM guy, through and through. Don't want to start a war, but I must admit to not being a fan of the MCI set-up. ;D
It took me a couple of days to find the collector. I'm willing to sell it, but it won't be cheap. PM me.
Bob
Quote from: windtrader on April 06, 2017, 09:46:40 PM
Fair enough with a max investment of 6k usd. the max risk is less than 3k as you say in this case. at this price level what is expected as fair value is not much so not much needed in PPI. Agree a mechanically inclined buyer can do a basic road test to check that it stops and starts without much groaning, grinding, or other strange noises and doesn't shake and rattle too much. A good look into the engine compartment should give a pretty good idea of condition.
As the risk(cost) increases, a more thorough PPI is warranted. To me, someone without any first hand bus experience, spending $500 to get a solid PPI on a bus at 20K or higher seems money well spent.
Just a thought, but you did a very extensive amount of research. Maybe he could benefit from looking at your list?
I mention it because I can't think of a single system that wasn;t covered. ;D
I'll provide more detail on the inspection, but it looks like the bus will need shocks and at least 6 air bags to pass a safety test. Can anyone point me to a potential supplier for these (1975 GMC 4905)? The shop I'm dealing with isn't sure where to source them from.
thx
Luke at US Coach...
Who has his number handy?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
Quote from: daddysgirl on April 10, 2017, 10:34:37 AM
Just a thought, but you did a very extensive amount of research. Maybe he could benefit from looking at your list?
I mention it because I can't think of a single system that wasn;t covered. ;D
Seems like his inspection is over. I just used the checklist the past few days. Indeed, it does cover everything and more. :)
Luke is 1-888-262-2434
Quote from: majormojo on April 11, 2017, 03:15:49 PM
I'll provide more detail on the inspection, but it looks like the bus will need shocks and at least 6 air bags to pass a safety test. Can anyone point me to a potential supplier for these (1975 GMC 4905)? The shop I'm dealing with isn't sure where to source them from.
thx
Just a note of caution here. But if a shop is not able to source parts for your bus, it may be a good idea to look at an alternative shop. Buses are weird vehicles and not all shops are comfortable working on them.
And some shops that will/do work on them shouldn't!
If a shop is familiar at all with buses they will know how to source parts as well as work on it.
JMHO!
;D BK ;D
Thanks. I agree the shop that did the inspection may not be the right choice for repair. At this point, I'm trying to put together an estimate for the required repairs. I know I'm buying a project and some deferred maintenance is not too much of a surprise. Just looking to calculate my up-front costs currently. Our plan is for a longer-term project with incremental upgrades and relatively infrequent use for the first several years of ownership. Retirement is a ways off for us still.
So about the inspection report; here's the details.
Mechanical:
#1 axle L&R front airbags worn/cracked
#2 axle L&R front/rear airbags worn/cracked
#2 axle R rear, L front , L rear shocks leaking
#2 axle sway bar bushing worn (chunked)
Barely shifts gear at all - suspect clutch brake worn out
The rest of the items are mostly "cosmetic" things that I was aware of - cracked windows, lights out (will need to check with voltmeter, but I suspect bad bulbs), tub/shower enclosure cracked, etc.
Next step is to estimate the required work and decide if this is the right bus to start with or if we should find another candidate. My reading leads me to believe an MCI bus would make a better candidate for towing and we're not emotionally or otherwise committed to this one, although it checks a lot of boxes for us and I do like the buffalo styling.
Quote from: majormojo on April 12, 2017, 12:32:03 PM
Barely shifts gear at all - suspect clutch brake worn out
Buffalos have a wet clutch which can easily lead to a non-familiar technician's clutch brake failure assessment. Until clutch is properly adjusted per DA BOOK, this is meaningless.
Quote from: majormojo on April 12, 2017, 12:32:03 PM
#1 axle L&R front airbags worn/cracked
#2 axle L&R front/rear airbags worn/cracked
OK, so they're worn/cracked. Are they leaking air? Did technician check for air leaks from the air bellows?
Leaking shocks are a normal maintenance item, about $75 apiece from various vendors.
Worn sway bar bushings also a routine maintenance item, easily replaced, probably less than $50/ea. Ask Luke (888-262-2434)
Quote from: majormojo on April 12, 2017, 12:32:03 PM
My reading leads me to believe an MCI bus would make a better candidate for towing. . .
You can tow with a GMC, you just have to be smart about the type of hitch you install and what you will be towing.
Any hitch on a GMC should be constructed in such a way that the fore/aft forces are transferred into the chassis via the rear radius rod mounting points. Tongue weight should be minimal, as vertical loads are only protected by the two bolts that hold up the engine cradle. Flat towing a car is not an issue, it's the heavy trailers which can cause problems. However, investing in a Trailer Toad solves that problem, thus the cost of one is cheap insurance vs the alternative.
An MCI, Eagle or Prevost will still need to have a hitch properly constructed and installed, regardless, a TT should still be part of the package if you're towing a heavy trailer. www.trailertoad.com (http://www.trailertoad.com)
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
RJ, thanks for the info and advice. I agree, I think most of the issues found fall into the category of deferred maintenance and aren't fatal flaws in my view. I note in the inspection notes (see below) that the brake system components all pass inspection, but the "braking performance" failed. I need to follow up on that as to why the failure.
Here's a link to the full inspection document I received: https://goo.gl/GWFWGN
I haven't had time to do any further followup yet. I'm at a bit of a disadvantage as the bus is ~3hrs away from me.
From the VIN listed on the inspection report, here's some history for you:
P8M4905A-1181 was delivered new as fleet number 237 in September 1975 to Las Vegas-Tonopah-Reno Stage Lines, HQ'd in Las Vegas, NV. While LTR was owned by the founding family, it was an exceptionally well-run company, and thus the maintenance on their equipment was first-rate. Once the family sold the business, the new owners literally "ran it into the ground."
Also, be aware that rear drums for the brakes on 4905s are no longer available. JD at C&J Bus in MN, I believe, has adapted drums from another vehicle that will work, you'd have to contact him about that.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)