Hello All,
I am new to the bus addiction!
I would like to know what stock school bus diesel engine would be best and possibly the easiest to convert to multi-use diesel and frying oil.
Has anyone done this? If you have could you please help me figure out where to get some in depth information on this.
I would love suggestions on if this is a good or bad idea, should I go full frying oil, what is the cost to convert?
Thanks for the help!
Several folk on the Skoolie forum have done this (with mixed results . . .), so you should sign up there to ask for ideas. While a few folk here have done WVO conversions, their experience may not be relevant to you because almost all engines here are different to typical school bus engines.
John
First of all, THERE AIN'T NO FREE LUNCH - somebody is going to be paying for it.
Look up the issues with biodiesel - which is much easier on an engine than used fry oil.
It is easy to find success stories about using fry oil on the internet, BUT . . . .
Finding someone who is still using it after several years of exclusive use & 12,000 or more miles per year on the same engine . . . that is a different issue.
After enthusiastically posting early success, most don't show the same enthusiasm for posting details of their failures.
In most cases, a veggie oil conversion will cost you more money than if you had just left it alone & paid at the pump.
Reasons are many & often subtle -
- costs of collecting the oil,
- costs of processing it - filters, chemicals, storage, waste disposal.
- costs of storing it.
- dealing with the 'issues' of cold starting.
- multiple engine 'issues'
If you can afford fry oil as another hobby, have at it & all the best wishes for success.
If you are trying to save money, this ain't the smartest place to look.
From what I found, a reliable source for used oil is more problematic than many wish to believe. Used frying oil has value & most restaurants sell it to recyclers/ processers for other uses like animal feed & cosmetics.
After dealing with all the extra crap in the used oil (water, salt, flour, meat, etc), it would have been cheaper for me to start with fresh new veggie oil.
Your mileage may vary.
Interesting point of view! I appreciate it.
This is more of an option I would like to take after the initial interior transformation. That being said would any diesel engine work?
I will also check out skoolie.
Thanks for the feedback!
Excellent answers given and thank you. Like a lot of fish kissing and tree hugger wacko environmental commie ideas, frying oil in a kinda modern or even an older diesel engine just does not work out. It it had, all the hamburger joints would have made a fortune.
Sounds good warm and fuzzy but fails in the real world. Sorry if this rains on your parade. Even the very old diesel engines do not like frying oil. A friend tried it in his Old Crown Supercoach 743 Cummins diesel. All it did was clog up the filters, pumps and injectors.
He spent a lot of time and money trying to properly prepare, heat, chop, spin, clean, and prep the hamburger oil. Even then it had to be mixed with kerosene.
Another friend really tried with her old 1980 VW Rabbit Diesel car. Very primitive injection system. Same results. We had to hang a new injection pump and fuel injectors, plus filters. But ... her diesel seemed to run fine on it while it lasted. Hope this helps.
Not meant to be harsh. Just realistic. In modern high pressure computer controlled School Bus diesel engines, one would really have to work at preparing the frying oil to even run. Even with that the modern injection process and the big fat molecules do not mix at all.
Quote from: Further-ing88 on November 04, 2015, 07:08:52 AM
That being said would any diesel engine work?
Short liberal answer - yes
Short conservative answer - no
Fry oil tends to cause lots of carbon buildup - which can destroy a turbo impeller when the buildup breaks loose.
Ditto for most of Kyle's comments (from someone who has done it--ME!)
I did used WVO in my VW Jetta(that already had 190,000+miles on it). I was driving 110 miles a day, so for me it made sense. That was before the Gov't started requiring/allowing Biodiesel to "water down" Diesel, so the Waste Vegetable Oil was just WASTE and restaurants were paying for disposal. It was a royal pain filtering the oil, but when diesel was over $4/gallon, I was saving a bunch, even though I was getting 45+ MPG.
Two years later, my commute is only 44 miles a day, so the WVO didn't justify the pain and mess of collecting, and filtering.
I would do it again, if I had a hog that really ate diesel, but was cheap to fix.
I definitely am not doing it on my bus, as I have too much to lose, especially when on my very limited vacation time out of my home area.
Steve Toomey
PAbusnut
My experience is, just don't do it. the detroits have a fuel chamber in the head that really doesn't allow for waste oil to completely flush out and the first night below 60 and the oil is lard. I tried it on my 8v71, and it ran good, had it all set up, and got cool, and the was it, so then I did the biodiesel route. Too much hassle. Just so you know, even if the restaurant owner gives you the oil, it still belongs to the guy who he has the contract to pick it up. Used oil is a commodity and they consider it stealing and some get irate about it.
You're gonna pay for it one way or the other. Cheaper and more time effective for me to pay for the fuel than to fiddle forever with WVO. Plus, I know that my fuel system is in its simplest form.
Quote from: pabusnut on November 04, 2015, 07:18:11 AM
Ditto for most of Kyle's comments (from someone who has done it--ME!)
I did used WVO in my VW Jetta(that already had 190,000+miles on it).
Yep (except my experiment was "biodiesel". Only cost me an injection pump rebuild).
Quote from: pabusnut on November 04, 2015, 07:18:11 AMI definitely am not doing it on my bus, as I have too much to lose, especially when on my very limited vacation time out of my home area.
I think the operative phrase is "once bitten - twice shy"!!!
As to the question of the best engine to look for in a Skoolie,I don't think you could go wrong with the 8.3 Cummins.Dependable, economical to operate and should be readily available.A lot of the pushers came With Cat engines and the school systems really had a bunch of problems with them.Don't remember for sure ,but I think it was something to do with the the air breather pulling moisture into the engines .What ever it was ,they got it fixed and most of them are still going 30+ years later.
Quote from: bigred on November 05, 2015, 02:10:22 AMAs to the question of the best engine to look for in a Skoolie,I don't think you could go wrong with the 8.3 Cummins.Dependable, economical to operate and should be readily available.A lot of the pushers came With Cat engines and the school systems really had a bunch of problems with them.Don't remember for sure ,but I think it was something to do with the the air breather pulling moisture into the engines .What ever it was ,they got it fixed and most of them are still going 30+ years later.
I'm in the process of putting an electronic version of the 8.3 Cummins into my bus. I researched it a lot and many people with a lot of experience agree with your assessment.
There are two versions of the electronic 8.3 ISC that are bad and good. The bad version has an electronically controlled injection pump, that when it goes bad (and it does) you just have to replace the pump for around $2,000. Then there is the good version that uses common rail fuel injection. Course the most reliable would be mechanical fuel injection using the inline Bosch type fuel injection pump. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on November 05, 2015, 04:54:12 AMThere are two versions of the electronic 8.3 ISC that are bad and good. The bad version has an electronically controlled injection pump, that when it goes bad (and it does) you just have to replace the pump for around $2,000. Then there is the good version that uses common rail fuel injection. Course the most reliable would be mechanical fuel injection using the inline Bosch type fuel injection pump. Good Luck, TomC
Which one would be used in a bus built about December, 2003??
not the good one
i believed they changed the in 2000
Quote from: jackhanow on November 05, 2015, 01:42:42 PMi believed they changed the in 2000
They changed to the "bad" one? Thanks for the info (even if it is bad news).
You can look and see which one it is. the pump is on the right side under the intake manifold right behind the timing cover, if it has the injector lines in a row on top its probably good. looks just like a 97 5.9 cummins only bigger. They have pics on yahoo.
The ISB came on the seen around 2000 I think.May have been 1999.This is when they started upping the HP.You can find these in 300,325 and 350 hp but it is still the 8.3.I'm thinking that any thing from 1999/1998 back would have the old Timex engine .
The only thing is if you do go for the WVO conversion, you have to be prepared to go the extra mile to customise the paint job.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-prM485bkGzM/U2zmx_i9TOI/AAAAAAAAQUY/N3lKjnJ2rM8/s1024-Ic42/DSCF8001.JPG)
Been down to central America and back and still going strong
Wonderful! If I had as bus like that (heaven forbid), I would beg/steal/borrow/make an FMCA oval plate and an RVIA plate for it, just to watch the faces of people when they see them. A friend of mine had a truly despicable 1970s full-size Chevrolet that was more rust than paint, and he put an Alamo Rental Car sticker on it that mightily confused people, especially those who worked for Alamo.
Even the extra cooling is, er, "interesting".
John
Tony:Have you ever been to Asheville N C ?There was a buss that looked like this one hanging out up here a few years back.Don't remember that much about it but I do remember the VW bus up top.
buss=kiss
What horrible things would properly cleaned and de watered fry oil do to a mechanical 6v92?
;D http://www.thebiggreenbus.org/history/ (http://www.thebiggreenbus.org/history/) ;D
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fLbG7UWnPh0/TmG8ASqpSYI/AAAAAAAAO4c/w7q6qt1Q-kM/s800-Ic42/DSCN2231.JPG)
The other problem with burning used Vegetable oil, especially if it was used for frying fish or any frying oil for that matter in a bus engine is that you will have bears chasing you into the campgrounds and licking the back of your bus so you may have problems backing into your slip. Sometimes the bears go away after they clean the entire back of your bus but when you fire up your engine again when you get ready to leave they come back again. Then when you are pulling out, you have to pick up speed once you hit the pavement to pull away from them chasing you down the street. Bears can run pretty fast for short distances. If you do decide to go this route, I suggest you upgrade to a 500 HP engine so you can pull away faster. If you only have a 6V71, they may be able to follow you to the next campground, starting the cycle all over again.
Now that diesel has got so much cheaper, maybe the fast food restaurants will start frying their "food" in diesel fuel instead. And thanks to our friends in the EPA, there won't be any more of that stinky rotten-eggs sulphur smell to your McFries - imagine, they could now say their "food" is not only low-sodium but also low-sulphur. Yeah!
John
Just remember that you are still responsible for federal fuel road taxes if you are caught with significant penalties for avoiding them. If you want to save money on fuel for use of your bus, you might want to consider some other kind of hobby.
Quote from: bigred on November 07, 2015, 02:32:29 AM
Tony:Have you ever been to Asheville N C ?There was a buss that looked like this one hanging out up here a few years back.Don't remember that much about it but I do remember the VW bus up top.
We actually saw two of these buses on the same trip in and around Colorado, both with similar second storey construction - but this one was definitely WVO powered and in the photo he is transferring fuel.
I have run biodiesel in my F250 and I have done a lot of research on making biodiesel. During my research I have also run into many folks trying straight WVO. The one thing that is suggested, is that over time the wax esters in in WVO can build up on exhaust valves causing long term problems. This is also why you run the low ash rate oils for detroits, to prevent build up on the valves. Because of the chemical conversion of biodiesel the wax esters are removed during the process, giving it very similar properties to petroleum diesel. Biodiesel can cause issues because it is a very great solvent. It will remove all the crud built up in lines from the petroleum diesel. When I switched to biodiesel in my truck, I changed my fuel filter several times until all the crud was cleaned out of my fuel system. This of course will also uncover leaks if you have them. Also if you have rubber fuel lines it will degrade them. So basically, the moral of this story is, as others have mentioned is that it will not really save you in the long run. If you would like to be green, I would suggest biodiesel that is manufactured to the astm standard.
If I might make a suggestion to you, it would be to test the WVO rig on a smaller vehicle such as an 80's Mercedes, something that if it breaks down on busy city streets from WVO difficulties that would be easy to fix in a parking lot. You do get bad batches of oil with some nasty kitchen contaminants, and you do breakdown as a consequence. You need to purge the system of the bad stuff and fill with something that works. I cant imagine having to do this on a bus. What a nightmare.
I had a test rig which was a daily driver that I drove for 10 years with a straight WVO non-hydrogenated / 10% regular unleaded gas mixture with 3 micron filtration. Yes, I simply mixed the WVO with regular gas, with no conversions or heaters of any kind. I ran this for 10 years with no issues, except for that my intake valves and intake manifold were amazingly clean. The pistons crowns looked the same.
Quote from: jackhanow on November 05, 2015, 01:41:34 PMnot the good one
Sorry, it's hard to take a photo of a dark engine in a dark place, but is this one of the good ones???
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi45.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff60%2Foonrahnjay%2FBus%2FEngFuelInjDetail_zpsenoyytwu.png&hash=fa2419c991d77a9782e8e818e926f1d6e9dbef10) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/oonrahnjay/media/Bus/EngFuelInjDetail_zpsenoyytwu.png.html)
No actually it is the worst one. That electronically controlled fuel injection pump is what gave Cummins so much problems. When it goes out (and it will) just get a new one or factory rebuilt. They are trouble some.
The inline mechanical fuel injection pump or now common rail electronic fuel injection pump are the best. Sorry to give you bad news. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on November 20, 2015, 05:06:31 AM
No actually it is the worst one. That electronically controlled fuel injection pump is what gave Cummins so much problems. When it goes out (and it will) just get a new one or factory rebuilt. They are trouble some.
The inline mechanical fuel injection pump or now common rail electronic fuel injection pump are the best. Sorry to give you bad news. Good Luck, TomC
Better to know it now. Thanks, BH
Been wanting to reply. But had to move to my winter haven. Got busy when I got here. In my experience, most of the trouble was when they changed the fuel in 08 ish. I would go ahead and put it in because although pricey, it's not a super big job to change the pump on that motor and that was the main issue. You can also buy full kits with injectors and pump and transfer pump. If it's not gonna be easy to get to the front do it before installing. Btw I believe you need a throttle pedal sensor for that motor. Not sure how this one was set up.
Quote from: jackhanow on December 04, 2015, 06:26:23 PMBeen wanting to reply. But had to move to my winter haven. Got busy when I got here. In my experience, most of the trouble was when they changed the fuel in 08 ish. I would go ahead and put it in because although pricey, it's not a super big job to change the pump on that motor and that was the main issue. You can also buy full kits with injectors and pump and transfer pump. If it's not gonna be easy to get to the front do it before installing. Btw I believe you need a throttle pedal sensor for that motor. Not sure how this one was set up.
Yeah the Gillig was running well when it was put up for auction. The mechanic who is helping me with the engine swap was in charge of the maintenance of the bus before it was sold off (US Govt would not support the financing on a 30-foot bus so Transit Authority had to sell it off and replace it with a 40-footer, also, the turbo was fried and that knocked the price down way far) says that the bus had about 350K on it when sold. Rear end and transmission replaced within the previous year (although I'm changing the rear end from 5.29 to 4.63). My mechanic says that the engine had never needed to be touched -- he says that they always used Lucas fuel treatment in their buses.
I'm too far down the road to go back. If I have to replace the pump, injectors, etc., then that's just the way it is. I was never foolish enough to hope that this was going to be an inexpensive hobby. The original engine in my bus sat in a "bustle type" engine compartment; since the Cummins is a bit longer and the radiator bigger, I'm going to have to build a new engine cover- the plan is to have a hinged cover, unlatch the cover and lift it up and the entire engine above the oil pan gasket level is exposed. So at least it will be reasonably easy to access the engine for work.
The TPS is on a plate with the brake cylinder. The brake cylinder on my bus was working OK but the one off the Gillig is newer and more compact so I'm going to move the entire assembly. I've already stripped the Gillig wiring from the pedal to the main connector to the engine ECM so it's ready to go in.
Some things about this swap are easy, some are devilishly difficult but all in all, it's going well. Thanks for your comments and assistance.
I saw an older bus, not sure what make it was, a gmc maybe, but they put a series 50 in and just built a box around it and just moved the bumper plate back about 8 inches. The box swung open for access and I must say, the bus was a little rough on the outside and the box blended in like it belonged there and the engine job was well done. Makes me want to do that to my mc5.
Quote from: jackhanow on December 05, 2015, 08:31:19 PMI saw an older bus, not sure what make it was, a gmc maybe, but they put a series 50 in and just built a box around it and just moved the bumper plate back about 8 inches. The box swung open for access and I must say, the bus was a little rough on the outside and the box blended in like it belonged there and the engine job was well done. Makes me want to do that to my mc5.
Like I said - a separate engine compartment. The new one will be similar but a little longer.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi45.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff60%2Foonrahnjay%2FBus%2F100_0033.jpg&hash=dbae67bbb24ec520a515326b42c358fcd722c231) (http://s45.photobucket.com/user/oonrahnjay/media/Bus/100_0033.jpg.html)
I too have pondered the double decker idea. I bought this 102 because it was handy and I couldn't beat the price for what I got. My next one will be something I can do some real mods to and set up better for me. This one I bought so I could go back to full timing it right away. My 5 is also a great unit but wasn't working well with my plan unless I could take more time and money to Frankenstein it. It's getting harder to find any good 71/92 mechanics and I'm not that experienced either. I just study and pull some thing out of a hat, kinda like an educated guess. Anyway they have a neoplan listed on one of the converter sites and can really see a good use for the luggage SHED.
Bruce-reducing the rear end ratio from 5.29 to 4.63 will only lower the rpm of the engine at 60mph by 330rpm-not worth the work and cost. What transmission do you have? What engine do you have? Tire size? What speed do you want to cruise at? Let me know-I'll give you another opinion on your gear ratio. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on December 06, 2015, 05:35:40 PMBruce-reducing the rear end ratio from 5.29 to 4.63 will only lower the rpm of the engine at 60mph by 330rpm-not worth the work and cost. What transmission do you have? What engine do you have? Tire size? What speed do you want to cruise at? Let me know-I'll give you another opinion on your gear ratio. Good Luck, TomC
Thanks, Tom. The problem was that the last rebuilder on the transmission installed the output bearing without seating it in the bore and the entire shaft started to float axially. It cooked the bearing and the pinion gear and the wear pattern on the ring gear was all over the place. So, it has to have new rear-end gears. I ran the number through the calculator and it gives 61 Mpg for 1700 Rpm with the 6th speed enabled on the Allison B500. The Cummins is flexible enough to give a little more speed if I need it but I figure the 60-65 Mph cruising range is good -- that big brick will be pushing a lot of air over about 60 and no matter what the gearing is, it's going to be slurping the fuel. Besides, I'm an old retired guy who drives slow anyway.
(Engine Cummins 8.3 ISC photo above
Allison B500
Tires 275/70-22.5*
*Those tires are a God-send -- the bus was originally built with a height of about 13-8" with 11R22.5 tires; going to the 275/70's brings it right down to 13-6" -- the legal height east of the Rockies)
are you sure that you can get 6th gear unlocked ? ???
Quote from: eagle19952 on December 07, 2015, 08:37:41 AMare you sure that you can get 6th gear unlocked ? ???
Yeah, :) inside job!
Quote from: TomC on December 06, 2015, 05:35:40 PMBruce-reducing the rear end ratio from 5.29 to 4.63 will only lower the rpm of the engine at 60mph by 330rpm-not worth the work and cost. What transmission do you have? What engine do you have? Tire size? What speed do you want to cruise at? Let me know-I'll give you another opinion on your gear ratio. Good Luck, TomC
Tom, I used an on-line calculator (just eyeballing it looks like it works right). I didn't so much look at the Rpm as the speeds. At "best fuel economy cruising Rpm", it will do 52 Mph with the 5.29 and 60.6 with the 4.59 diff gears; since 60 Mph is my target cruise speed, the 4.59:1 should work well. But, as I said, it isn't an issue since the diff had to be rebuilt anyway.
275/70R-22.5=547rpm. 4.59 x 547 x .65 = 1631rpm @ 60mph. This is good for the ISC. If you need to climb a hill, drop to 5th that would turn 1883rpm @ 60. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on December 10, 2015, 03:45:58 AM275/70R-22.5=547rpm. 4.59 x 547 x .65 = 1631rpm @ 60mph. This is good for the ISC. If you need to climb a hill, drop to 5th that would turn 1883rpm @ 60. Good Luck, TomC
Yeah, and if traffic is running 50 mph, that's another good place for 5th. While I'm shooting for 60 Mph for cruise (and I think that aerodynamics -- although I hesitate to use that word in regard to my bus -- dictate that that's about the right target speed), if I needed a few more Mph in a traffic situation, I wouldn't hesitate to add a few more revs (1850 Rpm = about 66 Mph). Cummins lists governed max speeds on ISC engines as 2200-2500, most variants being 2400-2500. I think that the 4.6 ratio is about what I need.
Interesting to note that Cummins marine rates the ISC 8.3 as high as 600hp @ 3,000rpm. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on December 10, 2015, 12:40:03 PMInteresting to note that Cummins marine rates the ISC 8.3 as high as 600hp @ 3,000rpm. Good Luck, TomC
I don't know what Cummins calls that tune, but I'm guessing a really good name for it would be the "hand grenade" tune! But I like knowing that some extra Rpm's are available if needed.