The mechanic took off the "cylinder?" covers on the engine block and scoped the engine.
The 1st cylinder is soaked in oil. The second cylinder was bone dry and it looked like the ring was stuck. There was heavy scaring on the cylinder wall.
They are telling me an in-frame out out of frame rebuild. They really dont want to do it and would rather hand me off to IPS.
If anyone knows any other options for engines or two stroke mechanics in the Missoula MT area, let me know.
thanks.
-Sean
Oh man, that sucks...
What engine is it?
Brian
It will still run it was running when you took it there, make them get it started you don't want a $32,000 rebuild on V692
Sean, you've evoked the collective empathetic sigh. Sorry that you've reached that point, but keep in mind that every breakdown is an opportunity for an upgrade. Your experience confirms the fact that 2 stroke shops are becoming more scarce. You're far away, but we'll hold you up in prayer.
Jim
Hey Brian - It does suck. Its a DD 6v92-TA mechanical. No DDEC. Ive got a call out to KC Truck Parts to see what they can find for us.
If you know of any places to get a reman or a used 6V92, let me know.
Thanks.
-Sean
try leids diesel they rebuild them all the time . no internet just phone
I had mine ...out of frame rebuild in 2010 for $ 10,000 no tax out of state + $ 500 in shipping
Leid Diesel Service
267 Green Hill Road
Newville, PA 17241 - View Map
Phone: (717) 776-7725
dave
Sean, I'm inquiring with a local trucker here regarding a 2 stroke mechanic. Might be a rare find but I'll wait to hear from him and let you know.
You can install a ISM Cummins and B400 cheaper than those people are going to charge you for a rebuild
Quote from: Lostranger on September 02, 2015, 10:54:18 AM
Sean, you've evoked the collective empathetic sigh. Sorry that you've reached that point, but keep in mind that every breakdown is an opportunity for an upgrade. Your experience confirms the fact that 2 stroke shops are becoming more scarce. You're far away, but we'll hold you up in prayer.
Jim
Jim - Thanks for the prayers. I think I had my panic attack and sigh last night. Its funny as my wife and I were just praying about this today, actually it was like 4am this morning as I was tossing and turning over this and couldnt sleep. After praying we clicked on this http://www.thefellowshiponline.org/sites/default/files/sermons/Sermon-2015-06-14.mp3 (http://www.thefellowshiponline.org/sites/default/files/sermons/Sermon-2015-06-14.mp3) to listen to something to fall back asleep to. Just the first 5 minutes and we were both smiling. Out of all the possible sermons and pastors we could have listened to that was the one we ended up with. Its funny how God works and I think this will just be a faithbuilder for us. I am grateful that we are not on the side of the road somewhere and we are all safe. We are okay financially and are really just looking at our options for now and really praying that its clear what Gods will is in this circumstance. Keep praying though. We need all we can get.
-Sean
Quote from: sledhead on September 02, 2015, 11:03:20 AM
try leids diesel they rebuild them all the time . no internet just phone
I had mine ...out of frame rebuild in 2010 for $ 10,000 no tax out of state + $ 500 in shipping
Leid Diesel Service
267 Green Hill Road
Newville, PA 17241 - View Map
Phone: (717) 776-7725
dave
Will call Dave. Thanks.
Quote from: opus on September 02, 2015, 11:05:30 AM
Sean, I'm inquiring with a local trucker here regarding a 2 stroke mechanic. Might be a rare find but I'll wait to hear from him and let you know.
Thank you. Standing by :)
maybe.... http://porthuron.craigslist.org/hvo/5162512224.html (http://porthuron.craigslist.org/hvo/5162512224.html)
Quote from: luvrbus on September 02, 2015, 11:06:42 AM
You can install a ISM Cummins and B400 cheaper than those people are going to charge you for a rebuild
Cliff - Be more specific. I think ISM covers a range of engines. An ISM 500? Im willing to look at anything.
Will it slide right in?
Do I need to make modifications to the frame?
Do I need adapters?
Will it mate up to the 740 or should I get the B400?
Thanks Cliff. I appreciate your input.
-Sean
Here is the best place they re manufacture to original specs Diesel Exchange Springfield MO 1-866-343-7358 There is a International truck dealer in Eugene Or that is good or Hillsbrough Diesel in Hillsbrough OR.You can use the 740 the 400 is better, the ISM between 400 and 450 hp last longer
another maybe here ....http://bismarck.craigslist.org/ptd/5161493423.html] [url]http://bismarck.craigslist.org/ptd/5161493423.html (http://[url)[/url]
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 02, 2015, 11:22:29 AM
another maybe here .... [url]http://bismarck.craigslist.org/ptd/5161493423.html]http://bismarck.craigslist.org/ptd/5161493423.html] [url]http://bismarck.craigslist.org/ptd/5161493423.html (http://[url=http://bismarck.craigslist.org/ptd/5161493423.html)[/url]
hey Don - We have a 6v92. Will an 8 fit? I think it may be too tight and not enough cooling.
Thanks.
-Sean
A 400 hp M11 Celect is a good fit and are common in the Eagle and sell from $3500 to $4000
don;t know exactly, a lot of eagles had the 8's....
is yours currently overheating, my thought is a lot of overheats are a result of turning hp up.... too high ...
and maybe at the right price a larger radiator...
once upon a time clifford was a pretty big fan of the 8v92...
Don Smith's suburban has a 8v92
Sean Try gene russell at russells diesel 828 863 2102 or david at davids coach 828 874 6105.
Both are great 2 stroke diesel mechenics Boomer brought his all the way to Genes from washington for a 6-71.
My 6v92 in Huggy came from upstate penn. all the way home with two broken heads and a cracked piston.
was a little slow and shook a little but ever mile saved me 8 dollars"wrecker bill" and i knew the engine was toast.
David built the 6v92 for a whole lot less than 32,000. whole lot.
It was running when you pulled in should run to leave.
uncle ned
ps might want to try john silver in lakeland fl. he had several 6v92 setting around. news years last year. might have one this year also but it turns right not backwards like yours. Thinking of a series 50 for huggy
??? ??? ???
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Detroit-Diesel-Engine-6V92-Reliabilt-factory-rebuilt-200-miles-take-out-/201419188432?hash=item2ee584e8d0&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Detroit-Diesel-Engine-6V92-Reliabilt-factory-rebuilt-200-miles-take-out-/201419188432?hash=item2ee584e8d0&vxp=mtr)
Sean, my stomach is churning. we just talked yesterday and my wife had a great probably 40 minute chat with Angie too....any chance you can get it started and drive it somewhere or is that too risky for you? Guys, just to put it in perspective, most of us might take the risk of driving it and getting stuck on the side of the interstate with the hopes we might make it to a better shop, but Sean has his wife and 4 kids and a kitty to think about so being stranded on the side of the road may not be his cup of tea with a big family to keep safe
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Sean
We are pulling for you guys as we know all to well how it is to have your home become immobilized! Having been where you are, I would take some serious time before if got my wallet out. If your engine still runs get out of the shop and move somewhere to decompress for a bit.
In many cases you can buy a newer running bus for less than a rebuild.
Best of luck,
TM
Sean, sent you a PM. Not much, but its all I have at this time. Worth a shot....
I will see if I can find any around..
If he buys a used engine it needs to come from a Eagle,changing the drives on the rear for his is a killer a truck engine is close but a MCI,Prevost and others forget it
That's a bummer. There's a ton of mci 6v92's out there. But I don't see too many eagle takeouts
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Hey guys -
The bus will not start There is not enough compression in one of the cylinders. If I was a little wiser maybe we could have moved it before this point. But as of now the bus is stuck in the shop and that is where we stand.
Angie and I have both talked about this and have decided that we are going to put the money into getting the engine either replaced or rebuilt. But we are both exhausted and we need to take some serious time tomorrow and look at what all our options are. This is a pretty busy shop and the shop guy has alot of stuff going on. Good thing is he isnt telling me I need to make a decision now or move the bus out. Bad thing is waiting to get some info is so very painful.
The Shop manager has estimated 40 hours on the low end, 60 hours on the high end to pull it out and put it back. So that's a non negotiable unless we get it towed. And the price of towing would be about the same. Even if its half you get nothing for it and the work has to be done anyways whether at this shop or another.
We are waiting for a quote from Interstate in Billings MT where Chris and Cherie had their coach rebuilt. I spoke to the shop manager there and I totally love this guy. He asked a lot of good questions and is very patient. I know its going to be a pretty penny if we ship it there to be rebuilt but that will give us a solid warranty and 10 good years in the coach (enough time to get all the kiddos off to college) before we would have to do an inframe or major overhaul.
If I could find a quality rebuild that was less in price I would go that way but I wont even know until Billings sends the quote over. I am more inclined to spend an extra 5k on a known good rebuild in Billings than to have a 10k rebuilt unit from ebay or someones garage.
I would love to put a ISM or 4 stroke in the bus but thats not an option here. The shop owner said its an unknown number for fabrication and parts and pieces to make it fit and could easily be at least 100 hours of work if it went well. I think he is afraid of putting us in a place where it doesnt fit or they need to "make it work" and he wont be able to warranty it.
Biggest challenge now is where we are going to stay for the next 3 weeks....crazy
all the ones i found/posted are DDEC's...that would probably complicate things further
we'll just pray :)
I am always flabbergasted when I hear 40+ hours to R+R an engine in anything....
flat rate labor for the whole rebuild used to only pay 46 hrs engine stand to rebuild complete to dyno... dyno included.... :(
Some one is pulling your chain telling you the engine won't start because of low compression in 1 cylinder
Give Don a call at this URL. That's where I got mine.
Tell him Joe Laird told you to call. He's a great guy!
http://www.heavydutydirect.ca/pdfs/431_Nisku%20Heavy%20Truck.pdf (http://www.heavydutydirect.ca/pdfs/431_Nisku%20Heavy%20Truck.pdf)
It ran coming in, it aught to run coming out. They have you over a barrel and they know it.
Quote from: Scott Bennett on September 02, 2015, 12:39:53 PMSean, my stomach is churning. we just talked yesterday and my wife had a great probably 40 minute chat with Angie too....any chance you can get it started and drive it somewhere or is that too risky for you? Guys, just to put it in perspective, most of us might take the risk of driving it and getting stuck on the side of the interstate with the hopes we might make it to a better shop, but Sean has his wife and 4 kids and a kitty to think about so being stranded on the side of the road may not be his cup of tea with a big family to keep safe
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Scott - Corscican my brother.....Corscican....
Call Gary at B&B you might be surprised how much he will charge to install a L10 or M11 in your Eagle it's not that big of a deal as you could order a Eagle with Cummins engine
Sean,
I want you to know that I am praying for you and your family.
Your bus was running when you brought it in. You had the oil changed and new fuel filters put on and now it won't start. All of a sudden you need an engine rebuild. How was it running when you brought it in? Did they do anything else beside oil change and filters? It doesn't make sense to me. How can an oil change morph into a needing new engine?
GaryD
Sean,
I am with Gary on this one. It was running well enough for you to get in the shop--not missing, etc. and on the highway keeping up to the speed limit, so it should run.
Time before last when I had some air bags replaced, the shop had trouble starting mine and replaced the pressure switch on top of the primary filter, and it seemed to be OK. One camping trip later and in the shop to install the Jakes, the shop(different -better one) they discovered a hole in the fuel supply line just ahead of the rear bulkhead. I was having problems keeping it running at stop lights and very poor acceleration. With the line fixed, it races like a Porsche diesel VW Honda trail 70 ;D
Ask them to humor you and start with the basics, tracing fuel lines, etc. One dumb question--are you sure there is enough fuel in the tank? When I way home from purchasing my bus, nearly a whole tank of fuel was stolen--WHILE MY SON AND I SLEPT IN THE BUS AT A TRUCKSTOP!!! The next day I discovered it by happenstance, because with no gauge I wanted to make sure it was FULL-FULL before starting to drive for the day(Divine intervention)
Steve Toomey
PAbusnut
Sorry Sean, just seeing this now. Give Gary a call tomorrow, he has a line on a 6-92 MUI. Sent ya his mobil # via text. All the best my friend!
Quote from: usbusin on September 02, 2015, 05:32:29 PMSean,
I want you to know that I am praying for you and your family.
Your bus was running when you brought it in. You had the oil changed and new fuel filters put on and now it won't start. All of a sudden you need an engine rebuild. How was it running when you brought it in? Did they do anything else beside oil change and filters? It doesn't make sense to me. How can an oil change morph into a needing new engine?
GaryD
Hey Gary -
My same thoughts initially. My wife can't figure it out either. I think we were blessed to make it here.
Here's the run down one more time-
We came out of glacier national park and the engine was smoking a bit more than usual and running rough. Didn't seem right. I thought from the symptoms maybe the Turbo was causing the issues.
Checked everything out on the outside...didn't see anything unusual or out of place. Drove the bus two hours south and had heating and loss of power issues and bus was running quite a bit warmer (actually the engine bay door was hot to the touch) the Turbo and pipes were sizzling.
So I decided to take it in to get the oil change and fuel filters changed and have it checked out. First tech forgot to close the valve for the priming pump which he used to prime the fuel filters.
An hour later the 2 stroke guy asks me to start it up for him. It starts right up and slowly dies and before we figure out the valve is open it stalls out. So we prime it with the pump and try again...no go. Try again...no go...more fuel...no go...then after about 20 minutes of priming, taking off the filters and checking that the fuel pump is working, it won't start. 2 stroke guy goes home.
Come back in the am he tries with some quick start spray in the Turbo. Nothing...so he goes through and checks the blower, checks the fuel pressure...etc. After an hour he scopes the cylinders. Cylinder one is super soaked with oil. Cylinder 2 is dry as a bone and cylinder 3 is heavily scarred.
At that point they determine it needs a rebuild. And now here I am. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it on the scope. I really had no idea what I was looking for but you could tell it wasn't right.
And now here we are. Not sure they could sabotage the cylinders and if I didn't know better I'd think running the engine out of fuel could damage ththe cylinders.
So I guess in hindsight its a blessing we made it there. Wish we could have moved it somewhere else but not sure how far we would have got.
-Sean
Wishing you good luck Sean, my prayers are with you, tom...
i think i would call that fellow that Joe Laird has in mind... your ONLY about 500 miles from Edmonton AB.
the DDEC ebay 6v92 motor in Indiana is 320hp.... removed from a wreck...
Your oil pressure hasn't been getting lower has it ?,those engines will run on 2 cylinders all 6 could not be low on compression,he should pull the valve and make sure it's not a gear train failure
Before all this started to happen, did you let it get hot, even a little, on some climbs? Trying to figure out why all this started.
I'd give these guys a call! Me and several others I know in the charter biz bought remanufactured engines from them AND WERE WELL PLEASED.
Dad an I bought a 6V92 mechanical from them for one of our MCI's and it ran like a top after we brought it home an installed it.
We also bought a bus from them once after a guy had them do an engine in it and then could pay up so he handed over the title! BEST running 6V92 I EVER SAW personally! Our drivers swore up an down it had to be an 8V92!
http://americanfleetinc.com/ (http://americanfleetinc.com/)
;D BK ;D
OK, So the engine is hurt. We all agree on that. This is how you got here now.
As an independent diesel repair shop, I'm having a hard time believing this. Oil and filter and a botched fuel filter replacement isn't gonna need in inframe. if they can't start it now, How are they gonna start it after overhaul?
I have plenty of thoughts on this, I don't know your specific arrangement. Has anyone put a gauge on the secondary filter and read the fuel pressure? That would tell us if the blower/fuel pump is turning.
Do you have any type of emergency shutdown system/device. Do you have Jakes, Are they on?
Has anyone pulled a V/C and verified the injectors are in the fuel/run position?
Time for basics here, Sure, there's a lot of moving parts on a 92, But it'll run with a couple of weak holes.
Kevin
I am with Kevin on this one
Quote from: luvrbus on September 02, 2015, 08:03:05 PM
I am with Kevin on this one
I agree with you too Clifford & Kevin.
Just say'n IF the engine needs replaced American Fleet Service is a good source.
;D BK ;D
If you get to the point of getting another engine, I'm with B_K. Lots of good stuff about American Fleet.
Quote from: azdieselman on September 02, 2015, 07:32:11 PM
OK, So the engine is hurt. We all agree on that. This is how you got here now.
As an independent diesel repair shop, I'm having a hard time believing this. Oil and filter and a botched fuel filter replacement isn't gonna need in inframe. if they can't start it now, How are they gonna start it after overhaul?
I have plenty of thoughts on this, I don't know your specific arrangement. Has anyone put a gauge on the secondary filter and read the fuel pressure? That would tell us if the blower/fuel pump is turning.
Do you have any type of emergency shutdown system/device. Do you have Jakes, Are they on?
Has anyone pulled a V/C and verified the injectors are in the fuel/run position?
Time for basics here, Sure, there's a lot of moving parts on a 92, But it'll run with a couple of weak holes.
Kevin
Kevin - the mechanic did all that. Checked pressure, got under the valve covers and made sure the rack was operating properly and injectors were working correctly. Key was on. Jake's are off. I wish one of you guys were here. I'm only confirming cause I'm watching this mech go through all the stops. I'm just not skilled enough to call him out on anything.
Waiting for a quote.
Waiting.
Agree with Clifford and Kevin. It will run. I would have them go around that electric priming pump-eliminate it- prime it conventionally, use ether if needed and fire it up. Then I would get it outta there, either back to IPS in Billings or on to Hillsboro Diesel in Oregon. Busted rings or scored walls, it's still gonna run, if you want to overhaul it, Hillsboro would be cheaper I believe than IPS, no sales tax either. Two hard pulls going back to Billings, one short one over Lookout going west to Portland. Hillsboro has a huge stock of serviceable used 2 stroke parts so you wouldn't get hooked on the high priced MTU parts. JMO Mail me if you need further help Sean.
What boomer said, Sean WILL IT RUN ON ETHER? If you can have someone press the starter while using judicious ether at the intake and it runs for a bit, that would tell volumes
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Just catching up on where your at Sean, sorry to hear this. We'll be praying, not sure if we know anyone you could stay with there, I'll ask around. Craig
Sean said it won't run on ether (starting spray anyway, I don't think there is any ether in it any more). If it won't even kick on ether, there might be more wrong with it than a couple of weak cylinders. It got really hot, too, excessively hot to make the engine compartment door hot to touch. One thing I didn't notice - is there any smoke when it is cranking? No white smoke to me means no fuel is getting injected - or the injection event timing has been lost and it's not being injected during the compression stroke. Clifford said maybe geartrain, and I wonder if it has a idler gear that is failing.
Brian
Let me say I hate to hear about your problems. I have been there, done that on the road. Cost me $7,000. to get a $1.00 part in my engine. None of us want you to go through that.
I don't care for the 2 strokes, but they will most of the time get you home. You didn't say if there was smoke out the exhaust when you tried to start the engine. If you have smoke the engine should fire. If there is no fuel smoke out the exhaust then there is another problem. The Trailways shops used to change an engine in one shift. No way it should take 40 hrs just to pull and replace. Try to not have to make a fast decision, they can be wrong lots of times.
Wishing you the best
Jack
Hi Sean
Sorry to hear of your problem. That 6v92 will not run with a clogged exhaust. Try opening the system someplace ahead of the muffler and give it a spin.
Oh ok Brian. Then that complicates things....I wish we knew someone up that way that could take them in for a few weeks. If our spare bus were converted I would just mail you the keys Sean and have you fly out to Michigan and pick it up...but I assume you don't want to camp out in a steel tent :(
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Hi Sean,
Very sorry to hear of your troubles. Your family is in our prayers.
What was the actual pressure reading at the secondary filter? What about the suction reading at the primary filter? Have the filters been dropped and inspected? Maybe there's a defect?
You drove it in there, It's pretty hard to mess up the oil change, so since they botched the fuel filter replacement, I'm concentrating on that.
These aren't that tough to bleed. they'll catch on 1 or 2 then pickup the rest. Has he opened the return to see if there's good flow? Did someone remove the restrictor fitting during testing?
Have they plugged in the block heater?
How does it sound while cranking? I've had these start while barring over during tune-up.
Kevin
I wish him the best it is a tough position to be in with a family and at the mercy of shop,but that engine should run if he didn't lose rear main bearing or a gear train,I have taken 2 cylinder out of play by jumping the injectors to get one to the shop a 4V92 is not much on power but it will run
Yeah I smell something. It ran in, it should run out. They need to get it started again, and you need not to pay for their screwup.
Have they pulled the filters and made sure they are full of fuel?
He said it ran until it quit because of error in primer settings. They are a beast to reprime but that is what I am thinking.
Jack
I get one of the hard to prime suckers I plug the return and pump it up to about 15 lbs with fuel with the throttle wide open and turn the engine over a few seconds that will prime one.I have never came across one I could not prime in a couple of minutes
let's quell the myth here and now....a Detroit is NOT hard to prime, poke fun at me, ignore me, hate me... if it takes more than 5 - 10 minutes to prime a Detroit.... their is something wrong with the system or the person doing it...
if after 5 minutes the motor is not running as intact then...using a hand pump and a bucket... u eliminate the entire system...make/add your own return and feed lines...
if then it will not run, u look elsewhere.
if they haven't bypassed the onboard fuel system they are in error of process.
still praying
PS i feel for you, and realize that all the long distance mechanics can be furthering frustrations, I believe the shop u are at are not trying to bamboozle you...they probably err on the side of extreme caution. I would err on the getter runnin and let her develop...till the problem is obvious :)
Where is Don Fairchild??
Quote from: RJ on September 03, 2015, 08:44:13 AM
Where is Don Fairchild??
In Las Vegas starting his new job
I used a pump up garden sprayer full of diesel, removed the 1/4 plug on the final filter and threaded the end of the sprayer into it. pumped it way up untill i heard diesel returning to the tank and it fired right up. This was on a 6v92 that no one else could get to start because it lost its prime.
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 03, 2015, 08:32:40 AM
let's quell the myth here and now....a Detroit is NOT hard to prime, poke fun at me, ignore me, hate me... if it takes more than 5 - 10 minutes to prime a Detroit.... their is something wrong with the system or the person doing it...
I got my Detroit S60 re-primed in under 45 minutes having never done it before. Ran out of fuel pulling into a Walmart and most of the time was spent on two trips into Walmart to get a fuel can and a filter wrench. I also had to send someone to the station to fill the can with diesel.
Quote from: belfert on September 03, 2015, 08:54:36 AM
I got my Detroit S60 re-primed in under 45 minutes having never done it before. Ran out of fuel pulling into a Walmart and most of the time was spent on two trips into Walmart to get a fuel can and a filter wrench. I also had to send someone to the station to fill the can with diesel.
Yes, but an S60 is a different animal is many ways. But good point.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on September 03, 2015, 08:58:43 AM
Yes, but an S60 is a different animal is many ways. But good point.
my example was in a shop setting... one with a $110.00+ shop rate....
ps i have a bucket... in my bus.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on September 03, 2015, 08:58:43 AM
Yes, but an S60 is a different animal is many ways. But good point.
Not really Bruce the 60 series that Brian owns is basically the same with MUI injectors it is not a common rail system it even uses the same fuel pump as a 2 strokes but drives off the air compressor kinda of a dumb place to drive a fuel pump IMO
Quote from: luvrbus on September 03, 2015, 09:32:35 AMNot really Bruce the 60 series that Brian owns is basically the same with MUI injectors it is not a common rail system it even uses the same fuel pump as a 2 strokes but drives off the air compressor kinda of a dumb place to drive a fuel pump IMO
Right, I was confused with the all-electronic S60 and S50. Thanks for the correction.
One thing I didn't mention is my primary fuel filter has a button you can depress to prime the system. What I did was to fill the secondary filter with fuel and then pumped the button a few times to try to get fuel into the system. I then pressed the rear starter button while someone else pressed the primer button to keep fuel flowing. It started and then ran rough for a minute until the air was all out of the lines.
I learned the hard way that the bottom 20 gallons is not usable. We were less than 5 miles from our planned fuel stop and had made that trip several times previously, but it was really windy this time.
I hope Sean gets his engine up and running without too much expense and effort. I would put a 4 stroke in if it were me, but it could be a problem getting it someplace that could do that work. I was supposed to meet up with Sean and his family while they were in Minneapolis three weeks ago, but it didn't end up working out.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on September 03, 2015, 09:45:15 AM
Right, I was confused with the all-electronic S60 and S50. Thanks for the correction.
I hate to get further off Sean's topic, but my Series 60 is just as electronic as any other Series 60. It has a DDEC III. If my DDEC goes out the injectors will no longer function. I don't believe any Series 60 is MUI.
He's saying Series 60 injectors still require fuel pumped to them, they began injection when triggered by an electrical signal. They both make there own high injection pressures from the cam lobes.
Ken
Hey guys - engine is primed. Its definitely getting fuel. Lots of black smoke. With the ether it seems like it wants to go but just won't run. The 2 stroke guy in the shop knows what he's doing and has said all the same things you guys have said. Before he scoped the 3 cylinders on the one side he was pulling his hair out cause it wouldn't start. Doesn't make sense to any of us.
It is a crazy place to be in. If I had half the skills most of you guys have I'd probably be in a better place.
We have time. So I need to figure out thw best solution for us. That's what I'm doing today. Even if its a tow to another garage to get it figured out.
Still waiting for a quote from the guys in the garage.
Getting the ducks lined up.
-Sean
Quote from: Seangie on September 03, 2015, 10:57:27 AM... Getting the ducks lined up.
-Sean
And that's really all you can do - and make wise choices while you do; but that's the hard part.
Have you tried starting it with the air filter removed?
We just completed an engine overhaul on our shop loader. Broken rings, piston ring lands, piston tops all cracked. The pistons were so bad we had to plug in the block heater to warm up the cylinders to get enough compression for the thing to fire up. I think we went about as far as one could without a major meltdown. Looking at the pistons I was amazed the damn thing actually did fire up. Once it was running tho, other than a little blow-by, it ran with about 90% power of a fresh engine. Simply amazing.
Yours should run to get to another shop. Not well mind you but it should run. Heat or ether ... it should fire!
Is that engine equipped with a by pass blower ?
Cliff - Don't think so.
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F09%2F03%2Fd0ca33d82d8da4aba7fc41e62d4b21f7.jpg&hash=62b43a9a22234e92203f159bec8d24fdce1e6f96)
Lee - Yes. Sprayed ether straight into the Turbo.
Anyone have an Eagle or Prevost in good shape they want to sell for under 30k?
Figured it might be one of our options and thought I'd ask :)
-Sean
Is that a recent photo ? the exhaust connections are sure dry and clean for a bad DD.The by pass valve is on the rear of the blower
Would not the next suspect be the injectors?
Sean,
First off, I really feel for you. We have BTDT, just with a transmission.
Second off, sounds like you have a good 2 stroke guy working on it. Good to hear. However, don't just go with what he says. I normally step back and work through it from the beginning. Based on what everyone is saying, the engine should still run. If that is the case, I would figure that out first. Let them give you a quote on a rebuild, but if it should run, then make it run.
So, this is the way I work through it. Does it have fuel? Yes. What about air? What about exhaust? I would remove the exhaust, air filter, etc, just to see. Okay, then it needs the command to run. Do we for sure know that the start relay is working properly. Now do we really know it is working properly?
That's the way I normally work through something. If everyone says it should run, then it should run. Look for something small. Our bus wouldn't start one time. Totally dead. Turns out, it was a fuse buried in the front J box.
Hope it goes better for you!
John
is the shut down plunger stuck extended....happens alot ??? ???
One last thing before I leave Sean to make his decision just because it is puffing black smoke doesn't mean the engine has a good prime the 92's will puff black smoke without a solid prime
What a mess, wish I could help but will try to input some. No fuel = no smoke at exhaust. Fuel = white smoke at exhaust.
Fuel with combustion = black smoke at exhaust.
If you didn't smoke bad when you started up cold you had to have good compression. If you had good compression one cylinder would not keep it from running.
With out using starting fluid check exhaust for color. Make sure battery are charged and engine turning over fast. You can do this after they all go home.
Jack
I can't give good mechanical advice here, but I can offer an analysis of the general situation. First, if you drove the bus there, and it started up after the filter changes, it should start now too. Second, even if you can get it to start, you now know through the investigation the shop has done (assuming appropriate skill and ethics) that the engine has serious problems and is not likely one you want to depend on. Hence, it seems reasonable to start looking for long term solutions. I would guess that their shop rebuild would be very expensive, so the preference would be to find another engine from a reasonably trustworthy source. You could have it towed to another facility that might be more reasonable or less of an unknown, but if you can get it started you could try to drive it there. If you don't make it, you will have at least saved something on the towing. Getting a different bus, as you mention, is also an option but is likely to cost more and also come with its own unknowns.
This is one of the great nightmares of owning coach. In the recent past there have been several that have found themselves in a similar fix and had to make financially painful choices just to get moving again. I hope that you can at least get it started, so you can have whatever added options that brings, but I doubt it is the final solution.
I'm just going to offer another thought on the "it started, it won't start now, let's blame the shop" idea. An engine will pick it's own time to break. I've had engines break between race sessions, I've had them break cranking to get oil pressure, they break when they break. I am totally not going to be surprised if something broke when they tried to start it the first time after they primed it. It just happens sometimes, and people who say "it was running when it came it, it has to run now" just don't understand engines and their odd odd ways. They can just break sometimes.
It also sounds to me like the "two stroke guy" is pretty much on the ball. This is not an obvious problem and I'm not leaping on the "blame the shop" pile. Not yet, anyway...
Brian
I know this sounds too simple, BUT, did anyone put those air box covers back on with new gaskets? Might not start too well with those off. If the first mechanic thought the engine was "TOAST" he may not have put the covers back on.
Good luck, Sam
i don't hear anyone blaming the shop ....
what I hear is that the shop should be able to get the broken motor to run...and it should. unless it is actually broken. the odds of it breaking during a filter change are slim and close to none....
There is one more thing that is pretty easy to figger, beyond the isolate the fuel system, some one that has barred over enough motors should be able to detect a broken gear train, cam, bent rod or broken sleeeve simply by rotating the motor over by hand..with the valve covers off...and in 25 more minutes remove all the injectors and snoop for blown tips.
has it been cranked over by hand yet ?
we aren't there, maybe all of the beginner basics have been done....I'd still want to see the bucket.. ;)
Hey all -
Latest update.
One of the mechanics grabbed one of these -
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F09%2F03%2F0816aaa2c1399bea6864eb12cbdb7fa3.jpg&hash=260edf51732d1f12a603f5bfc72d9dd574091bfd)
Hooked it up to the secondary filter and primed the crap out of it and got it running. Only took 3 days to get there.
I am wiped out emotionally.
Glad they got it running. I think they really just wanted it out of the shop and were willing to spend some time on it.
So they charged me for an oil change and filters and 2 hours of shop labor. They ate the rest of the labor.
Not too bad and I have a good idea of what's wrong now.
Ill probably need at least an inframe.
We are headed to Spokane tomorrow on a limp.
I've got a mechanic there who's worked on 2 strokes for 17 years who's gonna take a look at it.
(Thanks Pete for that number)
Ill keep you all in the loop till then. Hope we can make it up the hill!
finally :)
where's the avoid list :)
oooops...
ps i might would not shut er down till i get to spokane...were i you....
Excellent, hope he helps!
You have one good climb to get to Spokane. Cant wait to hear what he says.
once several years back i had a weak transfer pump that did a similar thing wouldn't pick up out of tank on occasion but would out of a 5 gal can near filters. Also ck air restriction /filter etc like Techno had. just throwing those past things out as to reason for no prime. The engine problem is a ghost for all of dealing with old buses. Got fingers crossed for you. bob
Oh Yeah! That's what I'm talking about!
That was NOT the shop for your rebuild to occur in. SO glad you got running!
Cheers!
John
Quote from: John316 on September 03, 2015, 06:46:15 PM
Oh Yeah! That's what I'm talking about!
That was NOT the shop for your rebuild to occur in. SO glad you got running!
Cheers!
John
the way i read it they were only willing to r+r the motor and send it elsewhere for overhaul...
Quote from: Darkspeed on September 03, 2015, 08:51:14 AM
I used a pump up garden sprayer full of diesel, removed the 1/4 plug on the final filter and threaded the end of the sprayer into it. pumped it way up untill i heard diesel returning to the tank and it fired right up. This was on a 6v92 that no one else could get to start because it lost its prime.
:) Glad you got her going!
One of the problems we are going to face is that experienced 2 stroke mechanics are getting hard to find. The less experienced diesel mechanic is going to be stuck with the job because the good 4 stroke mechanics don't want to fool with an unknown. Since they are pretty good, they can tell the service dept. to get somebody else to fool with it. If I owned a shop that didn't work on a coach, and old at that, I wouldn't want my best mechanics on it if there was good paying work in the shop.
The reason I asked about getting the engine hot before all this happened, You don't want it to happen again on a fresh engine
He will be fine I doubt he got the 6v92 hot or it would be leaking water at every seam,92 series can be a bear to prime they have higher pop pressure injectors than the 71 series with the old needle injectors. I bet if he drives a 100 miles the oil soaked cylinder is clean I am thinking it was fuel not oil
He has time now to make a decision and how much of the kids education money he wants to spend
Quote from: luvrbus on September 03, 2015, 07:25:52 PM
He has time now to make a decision and how much of the kids education money he wants to spend
If it were up to me, I'd spend ALL of my kids education money on the coach ;D
But, there is one little thing stopping me - She who must be obeyed . . . . 8)
Yes---The old garden sprayer filled with diesel trick!!!
Pack up the clan and GIT while the GITTIN' is good!
Praying for an uneventful rest of the trip.
Steve Toomey
PAbusnut
But, there is one little thing stopping me - She who must be obeyed . . . . 8)
[/quote]
I know that song to well Kyle but it's the grand kids now ;D
LOL Kent/Moore made a electric version of the priming system too it was a electric pump I have one
I always used a garden sprayer too and it works. But the 6v92 has been a pain to reprime...I've done it half a dozen times now so I can attest to that. Hoping Shanks makes it...sean, take a video of the bus running...and someone stepping on the throttle...just curious to see how its behaving..
heck it could have been fuel philters ???
Glad it's running.
Just read all the history on this post. I too am glad it's running. The mental stress of feeling like you don't have any options is not nice.
If you don't already have a place lined up to stay in Spokane, your welcome here. I'm just off of I90 in Greenacres - easy on and off the freeway. Have a level spot with water and power. Look at my profile and email me if your interested. If you have problems along the way getting here I could probably get out of work to come see what I can do. Worked on detroits in the 80's - still remember a fair amount. No reason it shouldn't keep running with only a weak cylinder or two. Just make sure the oil and water stay full. Good Luck.
this sounds like maybe one cylinder has a ring problem and one is over fueling/blown tip ?
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 03, 2015, 09:13:27 PM
this sounds like maybe one cylinder has a ring problem and one is over fueling/blown tip ?
That sure sounds familiar. It was a $4,000 new cylinder for our 8v71 but she was fine after that.
So glad to hear this, and really wondering at how hard that thing was to prime. I guess I really have never had to prime one before, I just installed the little in-line electric pump and I just turn it on, run it till it changes tone and sounds like it has pressure, and start the engine. $50 for the pump is sounding like a bit of a deal now...
Brian
Some things I learned -
1. Clifford's spot on. Quote for the rebuild outside the shop (Interstate Power Systems in Billings) was 28k and the RnR would be 5k. 33k total.
2. Put your priming pump on the secondary filter. This was part of the issue we had. Putting constant pressure on the secondary filter kept the engine going until it primed. The pump hooked up to the primary filter did nothing to keep the engine running. (Correct me if I am wrong or if this indicates an issue with my engine)
3. The kids are getting a better education on this bus journey than they could get at any public school or college.
4. Four is better than two :)
5. Bus nuts are freaking awesome. You guys seriously are the best community of people I've ever had the chance to interact with. Thank you guys for all your help through this.
-Sean
PS - I'm off to the bus to drive to Spokane. If anyone is driving 90 between Missoula and Spokane or back today, keep an eye out for us. Will be in the right lane going slow...
Install a flo/thru inline pump before both filters nothing fancy with the all the bypass valves and piping they prime in a few minutes
Quote from: luvrbus on September 04, 2015, 06:14:23 AM
Install a flo/thru inline pump before both filters nothing fancy with the all the bypass valves and piping they prime in a few minutes
Here is mine, just like Clifford describes.
Get a 380 Fuel Pro. You will be glad you did. Can get cheap at truck wrecking yards.
Quote from: luvrbus on September 04, 2015, 06:14:23 AM
Install a flo/thru inline pump before both filters nothing fancy with the all the bypass valves and piping they prime in a few minutes
Clifford, do you have a part number / manufacturer that would work well on my Series 50? I have the two filter OEM setup.
I purchased an inline 24 volt fuel pump that I am planning to install between the primary and secondary filters since the pump mfgs. want the incoming fuel to be filtered to protect pump. Since it won't provide restriction when off, I'll install a switch with pilot light in engine compartment.
Chessie, I don't think it will pull fuel through the fuel strainer (the first filter before the bus fuel pump) to prime, the filter is just too big. I run mine in-line before both filters, you don't need a filter on it even though they say you do.
Brian
I have been texting Sean and Angie today. I'm hoping he updates everyone cause he has interesting news I think.
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If he needs a in frame I know a guy that has a set of 6v92 Detroit liners and pistons huh Scott ;D
Engine prime that worked for me!!
Danny
https://youtu.be/uZBwQ3PJ-N8
You may want to talk to Al's Diesel Inc. in Cut Bank MT. They are a Detroit shop that builds generator packages that go all over the world. All have Detroit power and I always see oilfield rigs coming and going from their shop. They are almost all Detroits, most of them 2 strokes. I see quite a few later buses also. Worth a call, ask for Dave Dosch. They built a nice new shop a few years ago. 406-873-5601.
LOL I believe he left MT like a heard of turtles
Should have read all the 8+ pages of posts. :-\
So we are sitting in Spokane. Just spent 3 hours going through the entire engine with Damien trying to figure out what's wrong with this thing. Damiens been working 2 strokes for over 17 years and I think I learned more in the last two hours than I have since I owned a bus -
He suspects its something with air in/air out that could be the problem but really couldn't exactly say what's causing it as we were in an Albertsons parking lot and he'd have to do some bench work to pinpoint it.
Liners - Can still see the cross hatch on them
Rings - shiny, shiny and shiny. Even the fire rings look brand new
Blower - very clean, in good shape
Aftercooler - Possibly but couldn't get to it. He highly doubts its this but worth a look at down the line if we can't figure it out
Bypass valve - clean and working
Injectors - nothing visibly wrong with them. They look to be in good shape. Would be a lot more smoke if they were causing a problem
Turbo - good shape, spins well, no damage
Muffler - worth checking into. Could be a problem
Air Filter - seems small for the engine (only 1250cfm) but with the 9f80 injectors it shouldn't be an issue. If it had 9g90s..maybe but problem just started so rules that out.
Anyways - everything is checking out. We are going to tow the van to lake moses tonight (2hrs) and see how the bus does. Its nice and cool so we should be fine but will watch for heat and smoke.
Thanks guys for all. I'm out of this thread like a....well...like a herd of turtles.
-Sean
PS - Damien's Diesel is fantastic. Damien has a mobile repair unit in Spokane Area. Great 2 stroke mechanic (509) 953-3480 90/hr and works fast.
Write it down.
It could be just bad fuel the old 2 strokes don't care for some of the soy sauce sold for diesel fuel today
Hey Sean I was just through Spokane and overnight in Moses Lake in my Swift truck a couple nights ago. We could've had a little visit. I would've rendered a little moral support to alleviate your highway sufferance. I wish you and your family good luck with this.
JC
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Quote from: luvrbus on September 04, 2015, 07:51:42 PM
It could be just bad fuel the old 2 strokes don't care for some of the soy sauce sold for diesel fuel today
Sean -This thought was bubbling in the back of my mind the last couple of days, simply because I went by a station selling B20 diesel for almost 50 cents/gallon less than most of the dino diesel places.
Did you by chance fill it with B20??
Also, can you pull the muffler and run it (albeit noisily) under load for a bit and see if the power's come back? (Don't forget you're also 1,000 ft above sea level, which will have some effect, albeit theoretically not much with a turbo.)
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Sean, what transmission do you have?
Quote from: RJ on September 04, 2015, 08:31:42 PM
Sean -
This thought was bubbling in the back of my mind the last couple of days, simply because I went by a station selling B20 diesel for almost 50 cents/gallon less than most of the dino diesel places.
Did you by chance fill it with B20??
Also, can you pull the muffler and run it (albeit noisily) under load for a bit and see if the power's come back? (Don't forget you're also 1,000 ft above sea level, which will have some effect, albeit theoretically not much with a turbo.)
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
RJ - Damien's pretty sure its an air issue so that's my next project. Ill start there and see if it makes a difference.
Cliff - any reccomended additives that might help if it is indeed a bad fuel problem?
JC just missed you where sis you go off to? We are headed west as well.
Tranny is a 740. Rear end was serviced 12 months ago. Drop box is fine. If it was something in the tranny I think I'd feel it. Im pretty sure the Previous owner had the tranny serviced (like taken apart and looked at) when he bought the bus. I've had the tranny serviced in the last 12 months - dropped oil and filled. It was clear, no parts or pieces and is still clean when I check it.
I wouldn't spend much money searching for air in and out I would check with who installed your turbo and make sure it has the right A/R and the right turbo for the 9F80 injectors, with 9F80 injectors it is probably a 270 hp CA engine with CA cams
The turbo and injectors is where I would look but it is your dime I am just happy you got away from Interstate they were greasing you up ???
Sean I was in my Swift tractor trailer. I went to Seattle then Vancouver, Kelowna, Edmonton, and today back to Calgary for some time off. The driving is a lot harder than in the bus on a holiday. I don't know how long I will last... I would've made time for a visit. Next time. Hope all goes well with your bus.
JC
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Sean, So glad you now have better news. That is a tough old coach!! Hope to see you and the family on the road again!
Tom & Karen
Yep that engine was too clean around around the exhaust and turbo area to have serious problems.I still don't believe he has a problem that maybe a set of injectors and tune up won't cure,a simple air gap adjustment could cause his symptoms
Quote from: luvrbus on September 06, 2015, 05:54:58 AM
Yep that engine was too clean around around the exhaust and turbo area to have serious problems.I still don't believe he has a problem that maybe a set of injectors and tune up won't cure,a simple air gap adjustment could cause his symptoms
i am super curious as to why he had a recommended DD wrench to look the problem over and drove away...
what's up Sean ?
Quote from: eagle19952 on September 06, 2015, 09:16:49 AM
i am super curious as to why he had a recommended DD wrench to look the problem over and drove away...
what's up Sean ?
Don,
I had the reccomended DD wrench in Spokane look it over.
It worked out great. Damian was solid and was very helpful.
On the other hand the problem returned. It appears to be a transmission problem. Ill post more about it later.
We are currently fine and will have the transmission looked at when we get to Portland Area.
Ill update on that in November when we get there.
Thanks guys.
-Sean
see, Prayer works ;D
Quote from: luvrbus on September 04, 2015, 04:46:22 PM
If he needs a in frame I know a guy that has a set of 6v92 Detroit liners and pistons huh Scott ;D
Lol. It crossed my mind.....that would hopefully give us a lifetime supply of good bus karma lol. But I don't believe in Karma so not sure where that leaves us. Trans issue should be less $$. Keep us updated shanks
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Just curious why do think it's the transmission not much goes wrong with a 740 the governor and modulator go sometimes causing a few problems
"The Don" Fairchild is working an Vegas these days and not only is he 2 Stroke Detroit awesome!
But he's Allison certified too!
;D BK ;D
Shanks, I know this is really elementary, but my 9 was running terribly and zero power until we finally realized the fuel filters were the wrong micron rating. Just a thought
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Scott - Just replaced the filters. Pretty sure its the tranny.
BK - if "The Don" is indeed in Vegas its definitely worth a visit. How do I find him?
Quote from: B_K on September 08, 2015, 08:31:22 AM"The Don" Fairchild is working an Vegas these days and not only is he 2 Stroke Detroit awesome!
But he's Allison certified too!
;D BK ;D
Quote from: Seangie on September 13, 2015, 07:22:13 PM
BK - if "The Don" is indeed in Vegas its definitely worth a visit. How do I find him?
Sean -I sent you a text message. . .
RJ
;D Don told me the other day he is not even interesting in working on buses anymore,I am trying to help him sell his CC he wants to move into a house in Vegas