Hi everyone! My bus (1964 4106) has two split units from the late 80's. They are Duo-Therm Model 56915-001 units. I have two. They are splits. The unit for the back of the bus works, but probably needs more refrigerant (it's cold, but could be colder, and it's frozen over a few times). The unit in the front is the problem unit. It doesn't blow cold. When I turn it on and the compressor finally kicks on, it blows cold briefly and then just warm. The compressor in the condenser unit under the bus definitely kicks on, but the fan never does. I thought it might be the capacitor, so I pulled that and tested it. It tested a-okay, but I replaced it anyways. The fan still doesn't kick on. So maybe fan motor?
Since they are pretty old, I am wondering if I should just replace them both. They are 13,500 BTU each and if they were working at 100% I'm not sure they would be enough to cool the bus. Right now I have been running the rear unit and I have a 10,000 BTU portable up front. If I turn both on at 5 or 6am I can get the bus down to 70 by 8 or 9am, but as soon as the temp outside is at a 100, it's a losing battle. They can't keep up.
We need the bus to have sufficient, reliable AC for not just going down the road, but for running in our backyard (where the bus is).
I've searched these boards (and others) relentlessly for the past few weeks and read hundreds of threads and I have come up with two options:
Option #1: Mini split units. Probably one 24k/30k/36k dual zone unit with the recessed ducted evaps. This would be a direct replacement for my current system, utilizing my ducts I already have. Then I might want a second 12k unit with a wall mount evap/blower to go above driver at front of bus. The recessed ducted units would fit where my current ones do, use the current ducting and utilize the same hold to run all the lines. Downside to this is it's the more expensive option by a lot.
Option #2: Window units. I have read a lot about converting these to central air more or less. I'd get 2/3 big boy units and mount them in the bay and then run all the ducting from there (cold air inlet/outlet, hot air inlet/outlet). I'd run the control panel up to the bus as well. I have seen some people do this with a lot of success, but I realize this is a lot more work and will take up more bay room. I'm not scared of the DIY, but I wonder if it's worth the $$$ savings. Alternatively, I could mount them in the bus where my evaporators are currently, and build an insulated box with ducting (and probably duct fans) for the hot side.
Either option I'll need 220v. My main bus hookup is 50amp 220v. My current units have a 30amp 110v breaker each. I can remove those and replace with two 15amp 220vs for the new units (correct?). Any other issues with going 220v?
So any thoughts? Any options I missed? One caveat. No roof airs. Don't like the look. Don't like the noise. Don't want to the cut holes (plus I already have ducts in place).
Here are some reference photos:
Front half of bus vents (over kitchen)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Feverydayexciting.com%2Fimages%2F1964-gm-4106%2Fbus-ac-1.JPG&hash=174a61687ad3e6d910db2a9b859b2ceb8a7a7cf0)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Feverydayexciting.com%2Fimages%2F1964-gm-4106%2Fbus-ac-2.JPG&hash=4d3a150f0e773cbe3de52dda49ef517d937255cb)
Evaporator/air intake:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Feverydayexciting.com%2Fimages%2F1964-gm-4106%2Fbus-ac-3.JPG&hash=64d73a7f655f2effbb725b4122e2adf6201a2a6f)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Feverydayexciting.com%2Fimages%2F1964-gm-4106%2Fbus-ac-4.JPG&hash=f5e9985ab4543391d8de67fbb216fc0b6cc2dbbd)
Thermostat:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Feverydayexciting.com%2Fimages%2F1964-gm-4106%2Fbus-ac-5.JPG&hash=fdf1ff48a9762f1552deabfb737a357d4d44195a)
Condensers in bay:
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Feverydayexciting.com%2Fimages%2F1964-gm-4106%2Fbus-ac-7.JPG&hash=30f9e00b71e56137e1d850ea641c8871e04b36e8)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Feverydayexciting.com%2Fimages%2F1964-gm-4106%2Fbus-ac-8.JPG&hash=589331d8711b7f45e4467cdb3bd12a392220ef75)
Portable unit
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Feverydayexciting.com%2Fimages%2F1964-gm-4106%2Fbus-ac-6.JPG&hash=fc1db6dbfd22908bfc827580d87c2e821a81fe28)
I'd bet given the life of the units they are well constructed and repairable. I have CruiseAirs on my bus and they are serviceable. I'd surmise there are replacement parts available at places like WWW Grainger and other supply houses.
The fact the compressors are running suggests recharging or even the replacement of components like capacitors or condenser fans plus cleaning the condenser coils might get them working again. Even if the cost matches the alternatives it maintains a quality appearance to your A/C system.
I did the window ac system. It worked but not great and took up a lot of space. If you do splits go for separate 120 V units--if you loose one your not down like multiplex system. Your present units can be fixed for most part. Dirty condenser or evap are biggest reasons for failure. Nick Badame (one of the moderators is the GRU-Gru on your system. Your location would help us help you. Bob
Have you contacted Dometic to see if they still have parts. It looks like Colaw RV Salvage has a used one they say is tested and guaranteed. No idea on price.
like an engine coolant radiator, evaporators must have a useful life expectancy. just curious if anyone has a guess as to how long one is worth keeping alive, the A coil that is ?
I replaced my 25 year old A coil only because the catch pan rotted out and it had to be removed to replace the condensate pan.
How much longer will R-22 parts be around ?
And last I have heard rumors that at a certain SEER rating parts and service will be no longer available.... any truth to that ?
That is such a neat and clean install no way would I ever give it up either
Quote from: robertglines1 on August 22, 2015, 05:34:56 AM
I did the window ac system. It worked but not great and took up a lot of space. If you do splits go for separate 120 V units--if you loose one your not down like multiplex system. Your present units can be fixed for most part. Dirty condenser or evap are biggest reasons for failure. Nick Badame (one of the moderators is the GRU-Gru on your system. Your location would help us help you. Bob
Hey Bob, good info. Yours was one of the installs I looked at (thanks for posting photos that were easy to find on the boards).
For the mini splits, I was still thinking of going with separate units. One would be a dual zone to replace the current system. Then I would add a second system with a wall mount for the front of the bus (for redundancy and additional road cooling).
With the 120v units I'm limited to 12,000 BTUs and with 2 of those I'm not sure it's enough. Thoughts?
Quote from: belfert on August 22, 2015, 07:36:13 AM
Have you contacted Dometic to see if they still have parts. It looks like Colaw RV Salvage has a used one they say is tested and guaranteed. No idea on price.
I have been in communication with Dometic. They call it obsolete and have no leads on parts. They were nice enough to provide manuals and parts lists, but that's as much help as they can be.
Thanks for the Colaw RV Salvage lead. I could go that route, but if something happens again I'm in trouble. We plan on using the RV for friends/family/guests while it's in the backyard. If the AC goes out on a Texas summer day, there's not way to get it fixed in a reasonable amount of time. This is one of my biggest reasons for wanting to get modern units.
Quote from: luvrbus on August 22, 2015, 10:44:49 AM
That is such a neat and clean install no way would I ever give it up either
Yes the install is very nice, so I'd like to maintain that. That's why the recessed ducted evaporators were attractive to me.
Hey everyone, after seeing replies, I realized I should be more clear about one thing. I really need a reliable, powerful system. The system will be used very regularly. If I were to maintain my current system I'm worried I'll be stuck in the situation again very soon while we have guests in our bus.
I've called probably 30 or more AC repairman in my area and no one wants to come out and look at these. I've had luck with 2-3 RV-specific repair companies, but all of them have weeks of wait time and they already told me they cannot get parts. So they'd either have to find other parts that work, or replace the units.
My thinking is that by going mini split or window air I'd have much greater choices for repair no matter where we find ourselves vs. my 1085 units. Thoughts?
Those units look very much like Cruise Airs-the same units that to this day are being installed on most every boat. The only difference between your system and boat systems is that you have air cooled condenser/compressors. I would get a good A/C man over to look them over. Considering that you'd spend towards $2,000 to get two roof tops installed, that would be a lot of repair.
When I got my two Penguins from Nick, one of them had no Freon. I had an A/C guy come by and he charged it. Worked for a while, but then was obvious it had a leak. We finally found a pin hole leak on one of the Freon line bends. He soldered it and installed a charge fitting. It has been fine now for years. Good Luck, TomC
In the meantime, buy two portable room A/C's with at least 12,000btu apiece. Here's the catch-make sure you get ones with two hoses each. One pulls in air, the other pushes the hot air out. With single hose units, you always have to leave a window open since it is constantly pulling air in and pushing it out of the bus. You can't possibly get the bus cool enough this way. I have three of the dual hose A/C's in my condo. With all three running, they get the job done quite nicely. They will be about $500 each. Good Luck, TomC
I will be doing my 4106 air project soon and my current favorite is > http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06/9-12-15RLS3%20Sell%20Sheet.pdf (http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06/9-12-15RLS3%20Sell%20Sheet.pdf) because of the high efficiency.
How well insulated is your 4106? If you have the OEM single pane windows and the OEM insulation you may need a pair of the 15K BTU units.
The high efficiency units are about $1700 > https://www.theacoutlet.com/15RLS3-ASU15RLS3-AOU15RLS3-15000-Btu-25.3-Seer-Fujitsu-Single-Zone-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump-System.htm (https://www.theacoutlet.com/15RLS3-ASU15RLS3-AOU15RLS3-15000-Btu-25.3-Seer-Fujitsu-Single-Zone-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump-System.htm)
You can get a lot less efficient units for a lot less money.
Had the efficiency discussion before. Basically the roof tops don't even offer a factor. Common consensuses if they would + 9seer. I have used 15 and over in my base criteria also must be inverter technology. The ones in my home are 15 seer and cut my electric bill over 50% comparing past years. Everyone does this different .Have thought about putting one under cabinet. i know it is not preferred place but seems the cruise air evaporators work there? Just for discussion... Bob
Also the roof units are rated at max BTU where split systems are rated at nominal BTU.
For example a 15k BTU nominal split system might be 18k BTU max cooling.
This deal is never going anywhere till someone that stays away from power poles,RV parks and use their bus for 20,000 miles a year. The ones I know that use their bus the most have the most trouble it seems like to me
No body ever tells if they have problems or not the few I know with mini splits it's about a 50/50 toss up.This is not uncharted waters with the mini split Ace had those in his Eagle 12 or 15 years ago, he sold his Eagle then he used roof tops on his H-40 maybe just for space I don't know
Quote from: luvrbus on August 23, 2015, 09:38:52 AM
This deal is never going anywhere till someone that stays away from power poles,RV parks and use their bus for 20,000 miles a year. The ones I know that use their bus the most have the most trouble it seems like to me
No body ever tells if they have problems or not the few I know with mini splits it's about a 50/50 toss up.This is not uncharted waters with the mini split Ace had those in his Eagle 12 or 15 years ago, he sold his Eagle then he used roof tops on his H-40 maybe just for space I don't know
boondocking in a Prevost/GM/Eagle/MCI is like 4 wheeling in a Bentley...
Quote from: Darkspeed on August 23, 2015, 08:35:43 AM
I will be doing my 4106 air project soon and my current favorite is > http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06/9-12-15RLS3%20Sell%20Sheet.pdf (http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06/9-12-15RLS3%20Sell%20Sheet.pdf) because of the high efficiency. ...
Unfortunately, all 230V (or 208/230 as listed). I know that that's more efficient, etc. but it's a deal breaker for me.
Quote from: Oonrahnjay on August 23, 2015, 06:15:06 PM
Unfortunately, all 230V (or 208/230 as listed). I know that that's more efficient, etc. but it's a deal breaker for me.
Im actually going to run them off a 240VAC SW inverter from a 24VDC battery bank.
In low cool setting the 9k (12k) BTU only uses 575 watts. :) The 15k (18k) BTU only uses 2277 watts in full cool mode.
Quote from: Darkspeed on August 23, 2015, 06:24:43 PMIm actually going to run them off a 240VAC SW inverter from a 24VDC battery bank.
In low cool setting the 9k (12k) BTU only uses 575 watts. :) The 15k (18k) BTU only uses 2277 watts in full cool mode.
Yeah, the wattage figures are impressive. I currently have a 120V inverter and a 12V battery bank -- not saying that I couldn't or I wouldn't but it seems pretty impractical.
Quote from: Darkspeed on August 23, 2015, 08:35:43 AM
I will be doing my 4106 air project soon and my current favorite is > http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06/9-12-15RLS3%20Sell%20Sheet.pdf (http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/PDF_06/9-12-15RLS3%20Sell%20Sheet.pdf) because of the high efficiency.
How well insulated is your 4106? If you have the OEM single pane windows and the OEM insulation you may need a pair of the 15K BTU units.
The high efficiency units are about $1700 > https://www.theacoutlet.com/15RLS3-ASU15RLS3-AOU15RLS3-15000-Btu-25.3-Seer-Fujitsu-Single-Zone-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump-System.htm (https://www.theacoutlet.com/15RLS3-ASU15RLS3-AOU15RLS3-15000-Btu-25.3-Seer-Fujitsu-Single-Zone-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump-System.htm)
You can get a lot less efficient units for a lot less money.
Not sure on the insulation. I think it has fiberglass insulation in a few places (where I've seen it poke out). So either that or OEM insulation. Not great either way. Also have the original single pane windows.
I definitely think I need at least 30k BTU. What's the advantage of the Fujitsu units other than efficiency? How massive is the difference between 15 and 23 SEER?
My AC engineer buddy swears the Fujitsu are the best brand for mobile mini splits and they are good at removing moisture from the air. If you are running your split system exclusively off of a 120v/240v power pole, then there is no big seer advantage. It matters to me because sometimes I will be running off of a battery bank backed up by a small generator.
The OEM 4106 had about R3 worth of insulation in the walls, none in the floor, single pane windows, and no form of thermal isolation, so you are fighting mother nature.
Easiest thing to do to combat heat is a bright white roof. Im using Liquid EPDM on mine as it also makes the entire roof waterproof and hail resistant. > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003K9XGTK/ref=pe_456950_140776490_em_1p_0_im (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003K9XGTK/ref=pe_456950_140776490_em_1p_0_im)
Quote from: Darkspeed on August 24, 2015, 04:48:02 PM
My AC engineer buddy swears the Fujitsu are the best brand for mobile mini splits and they are good at removing moisture from the air. If you are running your split system exclusively off of a 120v/240v power pole, then there is no big seer advantage. It matters to me because sometimes I will be running off of a battery bank backed up by a small generator.
The OEM 4106 had about R3 worth of insulation in the walls, none in the floor, single pane windows, and no form of thermal isolation, so you are fighting mother nature.
Easiest thing to do to combat heat is a bright white roof. Im using Liquid EPDM on mine as it also makes the entire roof waterproof and hail resistant. > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003K9XGTK/ref=pe_456950_140776490_em_1p_0_im (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003K9XGTK/ref=pe_456950_140776490_em_1p_0_im)
Good info! At some point I'd love to do spray foam, but that's a lot of work to remove everything from the bus to redo insulation right now.
Our roof is currently white, but probably needs a new coat at some point soon. I'll bookmark that roof coating.
I've re-measured everything and read through several of the "slim duct" recessed type evaporators like this one: http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/duct.htm (http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/duct.htm)
It looks like these will be too big to install where my current ones are. Not to mention I think my existing ducting would be too small and restrictive for these. I'm going to see if there is any other way to make them work. Otherwise I might be stuck with the regular on-the-wall units.
Has anyone ever tapped into the existing vents (that run along the windows on both sides of the bus) with another AC unit? Maybe I could run the ducted mini-splits and duct them directly into the bus system?
Any other thoughts or options?
We've watched lots of people try all kinds of a/c solutions..If you really use your bus rooftops are still the easiest to maintain.. We never stay anywhere below 70 degrees. So a/Cs run... About 7years is average life. Have two new Atwood's setting here at the moment...rdw
After installing mini-splits and running the gammit with those, Here's my 2 cents -
Mini splits are awesome when they work. You really need to spend time and money on the install. Number one issue is getting enough air to cool the external compressor unit. It puts off a lot of heat. Tikvah (Dave) has a single 9k unit and has to leave his bay door opened when parked. When I had mini splits I had a hole cut into my bay door and floor of the bay with a fan forcing air down out of the bay. I had a 24k unit and when driving it was barely enough to keep the external unit from overheating. When parked the bay door was open.
So a cooling solution for the outdoor unit is needed.
Second - the inside unit will collect water in a humid environment. When we went around corners the water would drip over the edge. Not a big deal but these trays are not desinged to be on the move and the edge of the tray isn't enough to keep excess water from splashing. Have a good drainage plan for the evaporators.
220v is what I had my units on. Bad idea unless you are willing to pay premium prices and willing to go without when boondocking or staying with friends. Sure you can run your generator 24/7 but you won't be able to use 30 amp or 20 amp hookups to run it. And you wont have a redundant backup, so if your capacitor burns out or your brushes go out or your genny overheats it will be miserable on a 100 degree day. No using an inverter or borrowing a 20 amp supply from someone.
Use 2 110v units. If one goes out you'll have a backup. And you'll be able to use a regular Edison 15 or 20 amp plug to run it.
Roof airs are noisy but cheap and easy to install and use.
The best use for a window unit is taking it apart and creating a Mini-Split with it. This is possible but you have to know what you are doing and have some HVAC know how. I've seen one installation where the window unit was split up for drivers air. It was a matter of extending some plumbing and adding freon. The compressor and exhaust fan was in the spare tire bay and 'hhe evaporator was in the drivers area above it. The installer added a 12v fan with a switch for the evaporator unit. Neat setup.
Other than that you don't want window units hanging out your coach driving down the road.
-Sean
Quote from: eagle19952 on August 23, 2015, 10:22:27 AM
boondocking in a Prevost/GM/Eagle/MCI is like 4 wheeling in a Bentley...
Don - Have you ever been 4 wheeling in a Bentley? :D
We boondock in our Eagle all the time. Not backroad dirt and desert but wallyworld and city streets for sure.
Majority of our time is spent boondocking. Almost never parked on pavement, and almost never hooked to a pole. But thats what I built it for, to be used.
We had two 4104's in our family. One had 2 13,500 roof airs and the other had the same setup as yours with ducting. Both were at the same FMCA convention in summer. Came back to the coaches after sitting all day in sun with no hookups. Started generators and turned on AC's. Roof ac coach was comfortable in 1/2 hour or less. The other one was more than 1 1/2 hour to get as cool. That was the last trip with them. Changed to roof airs and never looked back. Also freed up bay space. Both ac systems were less than three years old. Ducted systems available today work pretty nice, but space is at a premium in the older 35 foot coaches. How well are those mini splits going to handle the pounding and vibration out on the road?
Quote from: Seangie on August 27, 2015, 07:11:45 AM
After installing mini-splits and running the gammit with those, Here's my 2 cents -
Mini splits are awesome when they work. You really need to spend time and money on the install. Number one issue is getting enough air to cool the external compressor unit. It puts off a lot of heat. Tikvah (Dave) has a single 9k unit and has to leave his bay door opened when parked. When I had mini splits I had a hole cut into my bay door and floor of the bay with a fan forcing air down out of the bay. I had a 24k unit and when driving it was barely enough to keep the external unit from overheating. When parked the bay door was open.
So a cooling solution for the outdoor unit is needed.
Second - the inside unit will collect water in a humid environment. When we went around corners the water would drip over the edge. Not a big deal but these trays are not desinged to be on the move and the edge of the tray isn't enough to keep excess water from splashing. Have a good drainage plan for the evaporators.
220v is what I had my units on. Bad idea unless you are willing to pay premium prices and willing to go without when boondocking or staying with friends. Sure you can run your generator 24/7 but you won't be able to use 30 amp or 20 amp hookups to run it. And you wont have a redundant backup, so if your capacitor burns out or your brushes go out or your genny overheats it will be miserable on a 100 degree day. No using an inverter or borrowing a 20 amp supply from someone.
Use 2 110v units. If one goes out you'll have a backup. And you'll be able to use a regular Edison 15 or 20 amp plug to run it.
Roof airs are noisy but cheap and easy to install and use.
The best use for a window unit is taking it apart and creating a Mini-Split with it. This is possible but you have to know what you are doing and have some HVAC know how. I've seen one installation where the window unit was split up for drivers air. It was a matter of extending some plumbing and adding freon. The compressor and exhaust fan was in the spare tire bay and 'hhe evaporator was in the drivers area above it. The installer added a 12v fan with a switch for the evaporator unit. Neat setup.
Other than that you don't want window units hanging out your coach driving down the road.
-Sean
For the outside unit install, I was planning on ducting it from the bay door vents to the unit and then from there out under the bus. In the exhaust duct I wanted to use either a heavy duty, high cfm duct fan or some raditor type fans. Would that be sufficient?
If I go mini split, maybe I start with a dual zone 220v and then in the future add a second 120v unit. It's hard for me to justify two 120v units when they are limited to 12000 BTU and take up a lot more bay space (2 outside units), when I can get one outside 220v unit to run 2 (or more) indoor units.
My biggest concern with the 120v units is I'm not sure that two 12000 BTU units are enough.
For the window units, I never thought I'd run them out a window. I was thinking of a nice install in the bay of the bus or where my current evaporators are in the bus (in cabinets). Then running ducts/vents for all the hot and cold intakes and exhausts. Basically converting them to central units. A lot of work, but I've seen it done.
So you're no longer using mini splits? You converted to roof airs? Would you change your mind if you were only taking 3-4 trips a year (1-2k miles each) and keeping it in one spot for usage the rest of the time?
Thanks for all your insight!
Quote from: chessie4905 on August 27, 2015, 10:14:15 AM
We had two 4104's in our family. One had 2 13,500 roof airs and the other had the same setup as yours with ducting. Both were at the same FMCA convention in summer. Came back to the coaches after sitting all day in sun with no hookups. Started generators and turned on AC's. Roof ac coach was comfortable in 1/2 hour or less. The other one was more than 1 1/2 hour to get as cool. That was the last trip with them. Changed to roof airs and never looked back. Also freed up bay space. Both ac systems were less than three years old. Ducted systems available today work pretty nice, but space is at a premium in the older 35 foot coaches. How well are those mini splits going to handle the pounding and vibration out on the road?
Well my current setup is definitely not cutting it, which is why I'm looking at my options. I really don't want rooftops though. I don't want to cut holes int he roof, I don't like the look, and I didn't mention it before, but I'm 6'5" so our bus is already too short. I dont want to reduce any points in the ceiling if I can help it.
How the handle the road is a real test/concern I have too. Seems some people have lots of success with them on the road and others not as much.
Thanks for the thoughts!
Quote from: Darkspeed on August 24, 2015, 04:48:02 PM
My AC engineer buddy swears the Fujitsu are the best brand for mobile mini splits and they are good at removing moisture from the air. If you are running your split system exclusively off of a 120v/240v power pole, then there is no big seer advantage. It matters to me because sometimes I will be running off of a battery bank backed up by a small generator.
The OEM 4106 had about R3 worth of insulation in the walls, none in the floor, single pane windows, and no form of thermal isolation, so you are fighting mother nature.
Easiest thing to do to combat heat is a bright white roof. Im using Liquid EPDM on mine as it also makes the entire roof waterproof and hail resistant. > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003K9XGTK/ref=pe_456950_140776490_em_1p_0_im (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003K9XGTK/ref=pe_456950_140776490_em_1p_0_im)
I was looking around today and found some 48v mini splits that can run off solar. I think they were around 12000 BTU. Have you seen those yet?
Also do you know if anyone has ever hooked into the buses OTR vents that run the length of the bus windows? Any reason not to? Would that be hard to do with a fujitsu slim duct unit?
48VDC vehicle AC units are a known and proven item. I am going to use a 48VDC compressor to drive my Vintage Air ( dash air ).
The 48VDC (Solar) Mini split is a relatively new item. From what I understand they are using the high efficiency Inverter AC compressor and just not adding the normal 120/240AC to 48VDC power converter that most inverter mini splits have.
Solar Mini Split is kind of misleading. If you have a huge solar array and battery bank ( wont fit in your bus ) you can do it. If your bus was maxed out with solar panels on a sunny day you would only be able to run the AC for a few hours until you were looking for a power pole or starting your generator.
I am keeping an eye for any positive / negative results from them.
I think the people who have the mini split problem are buying the $599 craptastic brand and not doing a correct install. We built a bunch of mobile medical clinics ( like MRI trucks ) and they all have minisplits and there has never been a problem.
My A/C is all adapted equiptment made by FirstCo in Dallas TX. The pieces were designed to be used on multi story commercial/condo units
The air handler is in the living space and is about 20x20x32h
MY duct work is almost exactly like yours. "built in" to the cabinets and furniture.
it has been running virtually non stop since 2004 and was installed in the early/mid 90's.
It is 220v, If I am going to the Grand Canyon...I do it in April. Death Valley/Furnace Creek I do it in the winter...
If it is hot hot I park on a pole, If I am driving I use my generator.
http://www.firstco.com/ (http://www.firstco.com/)
MAYBE ??/ this one will adapt...only 2T tho...
http://www.firstco.com/Products/Multi-Family-Residential-Products/Single-Package-Vertical-Units/SPXR-A-(cooling-with-electric-heat) (http://www.firstco.com/Products/Multi-Family-Residential-Products/Single-Package-Vertical-Units/SPXR-A-(cooling-with-electric-heat))
My Condenser 3T with squirrel cage fan... R22
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1207.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb468%2Fdphalaska%2FImage022-1.jpg&hash=f54155314a36d8f8398f1c572ccc1607382a8025)
You can see two A/C ducts (small rectangles) upper left
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1207.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fbb468%2Fdphalaska%2F0295035-R1-054-25A.jpg&hash=0dd8313b56a6aeef45ec86c3d90a1ad73f16983c)
This is simple-roof tops are the easiest, cheapest A/C's. I know many don't like the looks, but notice even on high end motorhomes, roof tops are used. On my bus with huge windows, I have three 13,500btu Colemans. Granted they are not very quiet, but they work extremely well. I installed them in 1994 and haven't done a thing to them, except clean the filters. Course my bus is indoors. I use the bus constantly even when parked-it is my apartment when working on the truck.
Using anything 240v will be a pain. I can run one A/C on a 20amp circuit. Having three is a comfort if one breaks down-I've been lucky since none have broken down. The key to quieting at night, I run the middle A/C on low fan then open the bathroom door blocking off the hallway, but having enough space between the top of the door and ceiling to allow cool air through. Then it is quiet enough to sleep. I have slept boon docking with the gen and A/C on all night, and neither is too noisy to sleep. Good Luck, TomC
Perhaps...if you say so, but in 10 years i have not experienced any pain. ;D
any AC repair person who has worked on my system was happy to do it and did so the same day i called, never took more than a few hours...
you don't get that kind of service from roof top repairman, I've been in enough rv parks to know that...
roof tops....are also the noisiest.
Quote from: Darkspeed on August 27, 2015, 03:05:04 PM
I think the people who have the mini split problem are buying the $599 craptastic brand and not doing a correct install. We built a bunch of mobile medical clinics ( like MRI trucks ) and they all have minisplits and there has never been a problem.
One of the ones I'm looking at this:
http://www.thermospace.com/ductless_split/thermocore-t118d-h230-18+18.php (http://www.thermospace.com/ductless_split/thermocore-t118d-h230-18+18.php)
I really like the fujitsu units, but they are $1000-1500 more.
When you say "not doing a correct install" what do you mean?
How do you adapt them for the mobile medical clinics that is different from a residential install?
I'm becoming pretty convinced the mini split route is the best for my case.
Quote from: eagle19952 on August 27, 2015, 03:44:15 PM
My A/C is all adapted equiptment made by FirstCo in Dallas TX. The pieces were designed to be used on multi story commercial/condo units
The air handler is in the living space and is about 20x20x32h
MY duct work is almost exactly like yours. "built in" to the cabinets and furniture.
it has been running virtually non stop since 2004 and was installed in the early/mid 90's.
It is 220v, If I am going to the Grand Canyon...I do it in April. Death Valley/Furnace Creek I do it in the winter...
If it is hot hot I park on a pole, If I am driving I use my generator.
http://www.firstco.com/ (http://www.firstco.com/)
MAYBE ??/ this one will adapt...only 2T tho...
http://www.firstco.com/Products/Multi-Family-Residential-Products/Single-Package-Vertical-Units/SPXR-A-(cooling-with-electric-heat) (http://www.firstco.com/Products/Multi-Family-Residential-Products/Single-Package-Vertical-Units/SPXR-A-(cooling-with-electric-heat))
My Condenser 3T with squirrel cage fan... R22
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb468/dphalaska/Image022-1.jpg (http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb468/dphalaska/Image022-1.jpg)
You can see two A/C ducts (small rectangles) upper left
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb468/dphalaska/0295035-R1-054-25A.jpg (http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb468/dphalaska/0295035-R1-054-25A.jpg)
Thanks for the info! I looked at that model (and a few others), but I'm not sure they will work for me. The dimensions don't work on most, plus the 2 ton limit worries me.
I really like your install. It's very clean!
Quote from: TomC on August 27, 2015, 04:29:09 PM
This is simple-roof tops are the easiest, cheapest A/C's. I know many don't like the looks, but notice even on high end motorhomes, roof tops are used. On my bus with huge windows, I have three 13,500btu Colemans. Granted they are not very quiet, but they work extremely well. I installed them in 1994 and haven't done a thing to them, except clean the filters. Course my bus is indoors. I use the bus constantly even when parked-it is my apartment when working on the truck.
Using anything 240v will be a pain. I can run one A/C on a 20amp circuit. Having three is a comfort if one breaks down-I've been lucky since none have broken down. The key to quieting at night, I run the middle A/C on low fan then open the bathroom door blocking off the hallway, but having enough space between the top of the door and ceiling to allow cool air through. Then it is quiet enough to sleep. I have slept boon docking with the gen and A/C on all night, and neither is too noisy to sleep. Good Luck, TomC
I really appreciate the feedback on rooftops, but I'm definitely not going that route. I understand all the conveniences of the rootops, but their negatives are enough for me to want to avoid them. Mainly, I won't want them on my roofline and I don't want to duck more than I already do on the bus. Btw, I searched around and found your basement install. That's really nice. Are you still running that?
pic of my install. See busprojects topic. 45XLE I brought the pictures forward for a ceiling post but further on there are mini-split pictures. Your next topic needs to be insulation.. Had one member add spray foam on top or roof 5 inches. then rubber type rv roof. I know this install is 5 yrs plus old and many mile/trips coast to coast. FWIW Bob
Quote from: andyps on August 27, 2015, 11:58:45 PM
One of the ones I'm looking at this:
http://www.thermospace.com/ductless_split/thermocore-t118d-h230-18+18.php (http://www.thermospace.com/ductless_split/thermocore-t118d-h230-18+18.php)
I really like the fujitsu units, but they are $1000-1500 more.
When you say "not doing a correct install" what do you mean?
How do you adapt them for the mobile medical clinics that is different from a residential install?
I'm becoming pretty convinced the mini split route is the best for my case.
A Split System wants a few basic things to be happy, sine wave electricity, not to vibrate to death, be able to drain properly, and be able to get rid of its heat.
1. Upgraded vibration dampeners were used when the condenser and head units were bolted down.
2. Flex adapters were used in the solder connection between the condenser and the line set.
3. The head units were placed on a level wall ( not at a fore or aft tilt )
4. Both drains (at each end) were tired together with a T to a main drain that was larger than specified
5. There were no crazy kinks or turns in the drain line
6. The drain line went out the bottom of the truck then it gently curved toward the back of the truck for a few feet so there was never any positive wind pressure on the end of the drain line.
7. Condenser has to be mounted in a location that it is working with the natural air flow when the vehicle in in motion not fighting it. for example if the positive pressure side of your condenser fan is facing the positive pressure side of the oncoming air from the vehicle being in motion, then your condenser is not going to be able to cool.
8. Line sets were secured to a wall or structure every two feet.
http://www.unisource-mfg.com/products/oneproduct.php?categoryid=50&productid=203 (http://www.unisource-mfg.com/products/oneproduct.php?categoryid=50&productid=203)
The isolators need to be:
1. Low durometer - soft
2. Captured - so in a hard stop / collision your condenser stays put.
This would be a good place to start on isolators > Extreme-Temperature Bolt-Down Vibration-Damping Mounts on http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-vibration-damping-mounts/=y3brr6 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-vibration-damping-mounts/=y3brr6)
First co does have 2 3/4 T and larger but probably takes up more real estate.
you'll figure it out i'm sure. ;D ;D
Roof tops don't last lol today I turned on 2 Colemans on a Coachmen President a 1985 model the wife bought new, the units haven't been run since 2000 and are original from 1985 would you believe both fired up and are blowing cold air and are working like a charm,these are 30 year old Mach units and never been touched by a service person ;D
I wanted nothing on the roof or no vent holes in the side of my X Eagle the Cruisair splits came at a price ( 3x$3000) but were worth it IMO no other Ac on the market can you take a fan speed from 0 to 350 cfm.The top of the line Prevost converter still uses the CruisAir huh Jon
Quote from: luvrbus on August 28, 2015, 09:11:40 AM
Roof tops don't last lol today I turned on 2 Colemans on a Coachmen President a 1985 model the wife bought new, the units haven't been run since 2000 and are original from 1985 would you believe both fired up and are blowing cold air and are working like a charm,these are 30 year old Mach units and never been touched by a service person ;D
Don't you wish you could buy that kind of quality today... ain't gonna happen :(
It is funny the MH is 30 amps and in 1985 RV parks had very little 50 amp service so Coachmen had a switch you could run either unit, it would switch automatic between the 2 or could be manually controlled for 1 with the generator it would allow both units to run
Quote from: andyps on August 27, 2015, 11:58:45 PM
One of the ones I'm looking at this:
http://www.thermospace.com/ductless_split/thermocore-t118d-h230-18+18.php (http://www.thermospace.com/ductless_split/thermocore-t118d-h230-18+18.php)
I really like the fujitsu units, but they are $1000-1500 more.
When you say "not doing a correct install" what do you mean?
How do you adapt them for the mobile medical clinics that is different from a residential install?
I'm becoming pretty convinced the mini split route is the best for my case.
Andy, that unit in your link is actually a Thermacore http://www.thermocoresystems.com/ (http://www.thermocoresystems.com/) =. I dont know them but I would check the reviews on a number of websites first. http://www.amazon.com/Thermocore-Systems/b/ref=bl_dp_s_web_9741779011?ie=UTF8&node=9741779011&field-lbr_brands_browse-bin=Thermocore+Systems (http://www.amazon.com/Thermocore-Systems/b/ref=bl_dp_s_web_9741779011?ie=UTF8&node=9741779011&field-lbr_brands_browse-bin=Thermocore+Systems)
Quote from: Darkspeed on August 28, 2015, 05:54:39 AM
A Split System wants a few basic things to be happy, sine wave electricity, not to vibrate to death, be able to drain properly, and be able to get rid of its heat.
1. Upgraded vibration dampeners were used when the condenser and head units were bolted down.
2. Flex adapters were used in the solder connection between the condenser and the line set.
3. The head units were placed on a level wall ( not at a fore or aft tilt )
4. Both drains (at each end) were tired together with a T to a main drain that was larger than specified
5. There were no crazy kinks or turns in the drain line
6. The drain line went out the bottom of the truck then it gently curved toward the back of the truck for a few feet so there was never any positive wind pressure on the end of the drain line.
7. Condenser has to be mounted in a location that it is working with the natural air flow when the vehicle in in motion not fighting it. for example if the positive pressure side of your condenser fan is facing the positive pressure side of the oncoming air from the vehicle being in motion, then your condenser is not going to be able to cool.
8. Line sets were secured to a wall or structure every two feet.
http://www.unisource-mfg.com/products/oneproduct.php?categoryid=50&productid=203 (http://www.unisource-mfg.com/products/oneproduct.php?categoryid=50&productid=203)
The isolators need to be:
1. Low durometer - soft
2. Captured - so in a hard stop / collision your condenser stays put.
This would be a good place to start on isolators > Extreme-Temperature Bolt-Down Vibration-Damping Mounts on http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-vibration-damping-mounts/=y3brr6 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-vibration-damping-mounts/=y3brr6)
Good info!
Is soldering the only option with those flex adapters? Or are their options for using the connections the units will come with?
I don't have any copper soldering experience.
Quote from: Darkspeed on August 28, 2015, 10:07:13 AM
Andy, that unit in your link is actually a Thermacore http://www.thermocoresystems.com/ (http://www.thermocoresystems.com/) =. I dont know them but I would check the reviews on a number of websites first. http://www.amazon.com/Thermocore-Systems/b/ref=bl_dp_s_web_9741779011?ie=UTF8&node=9741779011&field-lbr_brands_browse-bin=Thermocore+Systems (http://www.amazon.com/Thermocore-Systems/b/ref=bl_dp_s_web_9741779011?ie=UTF8&node=9741779011&field-lbr_brands_browse-bin=Thermocore+Systems)
Ya, sorry that was confusing. I was saying that I have been looking at that Theramore unit because it looks like a nice unit (better than the ultra cheap), but it was still a lot less expensive than a comparable Fujitsu.
I'm also looking at this Air-Con unit:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-Zone-Mini-Split-Ductless-Air-Conditioner-Heat-Pump-18000-18000-BTU-NW-/321832239517 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-Zone-Mini-Split-Ductless-Air-Conditioner-Heat-Pump-18000-18000-BTU-NW-/321832239517)
Quote from: robertglines1 on August 28, 2015, 05:39:23 AM
pic of my install. See busprojects topic. 45XLE I brought the pictures forward for a ceiling post but further on there are mini-split pictures. Your next topic needs to be insulation.. Had one member add spray foam on top or roof 5 inches. then rubber type rv roof. I know this install is 5 yrs plus old and many mile/trips coast to coast. FWIW Bob
I took a look at your post. Install looks nice. Do you have photos of your outdoor condenser unit(s)? I'd love to see how you ducted and set those up.
i/m thinking silver brazing is usually better around AC...
maybe that's what you mean't :)
Quote from: eagle19952 on August 28, 2015, 03:47:28 PM
i/m thinking silver brazing is usually better around AC...
maybe that's what you mean't :)
yes I used the incorrect term. I like to use Blockade rods..
Quote from: Darkspeed on August 28, 2015, 05:07:42 PM
yes I used the incorrect term. I like to use Blockade rods..
Have you seen those flex lines that can be installed on the mini split line sets out of box? With normal screw on and tighten connections?
I was looking only only found ones you have to braze together.
Quote from: andyps on August 29, 2015, 12:11:17 PM
Have you seen those flex lines that can be installed on the mini split line sets out of box? With normal screw on and tighten connections?
I was looking only only found ones you have to braze together.
unfortunately I have not. From what I understand the other option is to make a complete horizontal loop with the line set where it connects to the condenser. The loop can dissipate the vibration like a spring but I have never tried it because if you flex a semi rigid line enough times it will eventually fail, maybe in your life time , maybe not.
I agree that the roof units are workhorses and can cool the coach down fast. They are loud of course, but ducting them helps. Really, the biggest attraction to me for mini splits is their power draw. They are so efficient. Variable speed compressors and heat pumps that are efficient too.
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