I'm beginning to wonder why there aren't more incidences of wheels falling off.
In the past 2 months, 3 friends have had tires replaced on their coaches. All 3 had multiple studs wrung off on the driver's side. Even after they reminded shop the driver's side were Left Hand.
My (new to me) coach had been serviced by paid professionals prior to our purchasing it, so I didn't think there was any reason to check my lug nuts.
Today, as I'm preparing to remove some nuts to install some bling bling (new axle covers), I noticed the inner nut thread exposure was uneven. After checking all of the inner nuts, I was surprised to find that only 3 of the inner nuts were as tight as they needed to be. Most took over 1/2 a turn to reach full torque, several were plain loose. After re-torquing all the inners & outer nuts, all the inner nut thread exposure is even.
Sometimes vanity is a good thing.
Moral of the story -
Don't trust anyone else with them - Check your own nuts ! :D
Maybe they weren't re-torqued... :-[
I always watch when my wheels are attached.
I also ask them to use my small air wrench which has a max of 600 lb-ft.
I learned this after having to replace stripped studs on my 4104 rears - never again!
These tire jockeys are not the brightest guys in the shop. I can only guess how much training they get, it is awful work for probably not so great pay. Professionals - no!
We might be amazed how little training such paid professionals actually receive. Sometimes none. Might happen more times than we understand.
The key to it all is not to anger the guys by asking politely if we can watch over their shoulders. Seems the less competent they are, the more they resist.
It cuts both ways. Also the experience has been that the older guys doing the work like us watching and asking questions. They do not mind passing it forward.
Finally, do most LH wheel drum studs come marked with a big "L" on the end of the stud? If memory serves some older Jeeps had such. Do not know about Bus Studs.
That is why the hub pilot with 1 nut is so much better than the out of date stud pilot wheels using a inner and outer nut.
I never had any problems with stud pilot wheels but I am a never seize type guy torqued to 400 lbs but the hub pilot is so much a better system it's so much easier on the wheels,studs and the owner IMO ::)
And that is why I would rather eat bees than let someone touch my coach.
I always use a torque wrench, always clean the mounting faces, wire brush the studs & etc. I don't remember ever having a loose nut when I recheck them after driving 50 to 500 miles. (either I'm lucky, or my memory is shot :o )
Hub pilot seems better if only from 10 less nuts to deal with on each dual wheel. The fact that they are all RH threads is sure to make the tire changing process easier for the simple minded . . . .
Hub pilot studs and nuts have more holding surface than a tapered nut on wheels,less chance of cracking a wheel and centers braking out so the Accuride people tell me.
Accuride has stop making stud pilot wheels in aluminum now, I don't know if Alcoa still make one or not, seems like stud pilot wheels are going to be a thing of the past like the Dayton wheels
HI all;
I too like removing and replacing my own wheels. I trust my torque
and I get to look at what's happening behind the wheels. It gives me
a comfortable feeling to do this. I also know if I install the wheels,
then I I know can get them off. (have always used never seize)
Merle
Can the older pilot type wheels and associated stuff be easily and cheaply updated to the more modern hub type system? What all would be involved and how much would it cost? I for one have no idea. HB
Quote from: HB of CJ on August 16, 2015, 04:50:39 PM
Can the older pilot type wheels and associated stuff be easily and cheaply updated to the more modern hub type system? What all would be involved and how much would it cost? I for one have no idea. HB
New hubs that fit your axle tubes/ spindles and new wheels.
Seems to me that if you aren't having problems and they are properly installed, the stud piloted will continue to perform well. Hub piloted won't perform better enough to justify the cost of changing.
If you need to replace your hubs due to some other reason, then changing to hub piloted may be more cost effective. . . .
HB, Yes. At least on my 80 5C the hubs are built to take either wheel. So I removed all the studs and changed. Studs are not cheap I think about 2-3 bucks each. I put longer on for aluminum wheels, and I run steel on the inter rear. The hubs on the rear did not have a deep enough support surface to run 2 aluminum wheels IMO. Tom
What is the hub measurement to see if you can use hub centric wheels? I have stud centered wheels on my 1980 5C, but this has me very interested... I've tried to order new wheels twice, from two different guys, both said they couldn't get them from their normal wholesalers so I didn't take it further.
Brian
You could get hub pilot or stud pilot wheels on MCI since the late 70's fwiw
Something about the title of this thread was bugging me, and I just figured out what. Nowadays, a "professional" seems to be someone who gets paid to do work of any sort as a career. You have professional truck drivers, that's a common term, professional McDonald's employees, professional garbage collectors. But the term "Professional" used to mean something completely different. It used to mean a practitioner of a "Profession", a regulated, skill and ethics tested, highly educated career that included Doctor of Medicine, Dentist, Engineer (there is still title of P-Eng in Canada), professions where a practitioner holds a license to practice and is held to high standards by a regulating body. That is what I think of when I use the term "Professional". I also use it when referring to certain people who have demonstrated high skill and ethics in their work, even if not part of "The Professions" (IE, "He's a real Pro"). But a random guy who bolts wheels on a truck for a living mostly is not going to qualify as a "professional" in my book, regardless of how they make their living. The chief qualification for a wheel hanger is being smart enough to count to ten, and dumb enough to not be the guy who tells the wheel hanger which truck or bus to do next. ;)
Never forget that the other meaning of the term "Pro" is short for prostitute...
Brian
LOL I agree Brian I had a pro at Southern Oregon run a nut through one of Alcoa wheels then tell me my wheel was bad when he removed it BS
Too right you are Brian.
As I was addressing the loose inner nuts, I was thinking about all those in the past who have defended the big tire shops & their use of air impact wrenches to install tires. The result is sarcasm in the title. ;D
To each their own, but I like knowing the nuts tightened up properly. I also know what it feels like when the threads are stretched. Harder to discern the difference with an impact.
Also, I find that I don't need my 70:1 torque multiplier to get the nuts off if I put them on.
Good tires guys can get one on the money with a impact,it's the one's that keep on hammering that cause trouble,I use a impact and wet lube never broke a stud or lost a wheel in 30 years I just like 400 lbs wet instead of the dry 500 lbs of torque
Most all major truck lines use a twist and torque wet lube method on the wheels now with a impact set at 400lbs
Quote from: luvrbus on August 17, 2015, 06:50:45 AM
Good tires guys can get one on the money with a impact,it's the one's that keep on hammering that cause trouble,I use a impact and wet lube never broke a stud or lost a wheel in 30 years I just like 400 lbs wet instead of the dry 500 lbs of torque
Most all major truck lines use a twist and torque wet lube method on the wheels now with a impact set at 400lbs
Only problem with that is it is hard to know if you got a good or a bad tire guy before the work starts :o
Much easier to know after the work is done - sooner if they break stuff >:(
In some respects this is a silly discussion because the low man on the totem pole is usually the guy that deals with wheels and tires. Just like the master mechanic is not the guy that is going to change oil or grease the bus.
I stopped expecting quality work on my bus by others and despite the effort required I still do all my own work to avoid the pain of watching some one that does not know or care beating up my bus.
Jon,
I agree with you on expectations of quality work.
But it ain't a silly discussion if it makes someone realize they really need to watch what others are doing - the owner of the coach is who is ultimately responsible for the safety of their vehicle.
For me, it is easier to hope it was done right rather than verify. . . . It takes a lot of effort for me to not take the lazy route. ;D
I haven't seen a good bolted connection messed up by a properly used torque wrench - but I have seen lots of damage done when the tools weren't properly used. . . . .
It is silly but there are good tire people out there not all are idiots.I know a guy that is on all these boards with a Prevost he wanted the new Alcoa wheels you never need to polish
He damaged all 6 by buying all new nuts and paying no attention to the manufacture specs on the bevel he ordered boxes of the nuts off the internet,they never did seat and damaged the seat on the wheels
I am looking for a place to redo the bevels and warranty the wheels you guys know of a outfit SouthWest Wheel won't touch the wheels where he purchased the wheels they want another 3200 bucks for set
I see people do it all the time even replacing a broken stud they want to save a few bucks and only replace 1 broken stud instead of the 3 as recommended.Hub pilot is the way to go then no one has to remember does it go to the right or the left ;D
In the context of how I meant silly was unless we know the shop, and the skill levels of the people doing a particular job we don't have much choice other than to watch like a hawk, or go elsewhere.
I go to professionals when the work exceeds my skill levels, so I have to rely on someone else who has better knowledge than me. Unfortunately lately I am following the "professional" and fixing what he should have done. I cannot do an alignment. I cannot program certain electronic devices, and I am physically not able to replace my current windshields because they are so big and it is a two man job. So other than watching them and hoping things come out right there is little I can do. We can discuss this issue which affects us all, but I don't know we can do much about it other than to hope the guy doing the work knows what he is doing.
People need to know their skill level and limitations I agree, I do ;D I am not ashamed to have someone repair something I know nothing about.
All I am saying is that owners can screw up with the best of the best
After spending 40+ years in the hvy construction maintenance bizz, hiring and firing i can spend less than 3 minutes sorting out the cans and the can'ts...
go with your gut.
and PS. ;D
on a 1M yard a month 24/7 dirt job, your tire hands are probably the most critical men involved in timely completion, and are highly regarded in the industry. oh and very well paid.
one of the best keep her running mechanics that i ever hired showed up with his tools in a duffle bag... he poured them out into 5 gallon oil buckets so...sometimes you can't read a book by it's cover.... ;D ;D
Yep a 37.25x35x30ply scraper tire will separate the good from the bad in a hurry those guys earn their money
Quote from: luvrbus on August 18, 2015, 10:50:02 AM
Yep a 37.25x35x30ply scraper tire will separate the good from the bad in a hurry those guys earn their money
point is they got past a long line of dump trucks to get at the scrapers ... :o
All good points. That is why I wanted to bring this up. Too many people put blind faith in whom ever they are paying.
Clifford, Yes indeed, each one of us can be our own worst enemy, given the right/ wrong circumstances.
Kicking something like this around helps me to know when I should do it myself, let someone else do it, or some combination there of. ;)
Right but when you don't know its hard to watch and know if they did it right :(
Rob
Quote from: RobSedona on August 19, 2015, 04:46:43 AM
Right but when you don't know its hard to watch and know if they did it right :(
Rob
Sometimes, experience comes at high price.
Forums like this help me to learn some things - saves me from having to make all the expensive mistakes by myself. ;D
Since I do almost all my own work with the exception of the highly technical that deals with little electrics running up and down wires, or specialized skills using big expensive equipment I get to screw up and repair my own bus.
I am in the middle of finding and fixing air leaks. I admit is does not require a PHD to determine if bubbles in soapy water mean there is a leak, but it does require some skills to replace fittings or pneumatic components so the part is leak free. I just got done repairing my repairs on a pneumatic manifold that I thought I took great pains assembling, but it still leaked. Of course there were over 100 joints, 11 valves, and it used 11 compression fittings. Now it is leak free. Would a pipe fitter or plumber have done any better? I have no clue. Will I continue to put stuff back together and then have to repair my repair? Probably.
Just for information EVERY single pneumatic device has a standard for what defines leak free, and so far nothing I have bought defines leak free in absolute terms, even items I consider that should be leak free. They all use an allowable leak rate such as one bubble per minute or second or whatever their standard is. When I reassemble something I am trying to make my joints for fittings, and valves leak free, meaning no bubbles. I am not a professional, but I try to live up to what I think are realistic standards whether I am rewiring something, changing fittings, replacing air bags or whatever. Should not professionals meet such standards? When I am done I don't want leaky joints, scratched wheels, greasy hand prints, loose electrical connections, or misaligned parts. Why shouldn't people we pay have the same standards?
because people who pay by the hour thinks every job should only take a half hour...
and people who pay flat rate think that every shop is set-up like an SAE time lab....with never seen dirt or grease and grime...
LOL I wanted to add a TV to the Crestron System they said $150.00 I said no way I'll do it myself that little deal only cost me $700.00 to have the system up and running again I had everything screwed up including the POS (point of sale)
Clifford, you just identified the problem in current coaches and those issues are going to trickle down to homebuilders of the future.
Our coaches today use remotes, such as Crestron systems to operate everything. So when you want to change TVs you have to reprogram the system to reflect the change of devices.
But the house is not the only thing affected. Current models of cars, coaches and other vehicles are loaded with ECMs and all the electrical systems are multiplexed. The good news is the new electrical systems have far less wiring, fewer relays, switches and circuit breakers. But the bad news is the systems have internal diagnostics that shut down systems when something is out of range. What that means is the multiplex system modules are looking at current draw and if there is a deviation the system opens the circuit because it sees the variation as a defect or a problem. That means if in 2050 someone buys a seated Prevost to convert to a motorhome he cannot even change the type of headlights without reprogramming the multiplex system.