I've got a question about engine starting and what should be considered "normal".
Once our engine starts, it runs like a champ dog and has a distinctive "healthy" rumble/sound.
Lately, however, when I've started it, it lugs a bit, smokes a bit, then within I'd say 10-20 seconds it "clicks" (not an actual click, just flips over) and then runs great and sounds great, as expected. So I'm concerned if this is indicative of something needing more attention, or something to expect with these babies.
This seems to be happening in "cold" weather starting (below 50 at night type weather), but not freezing. It did not exhibit this behavior in the hot or cool/warm weather.
This is also after it had been sitting for a few days (or even weeks). Once it's started, however, I can shut it down, and restart hours later and everything is fine.
I realize these beasts can require a bit of time to grumble fully awake. I just want to make sure that's all this is and not something more needing of attention.
Your thoughts are appreciated.
P.S. This is kind of what triggered the other question about an oil additive.
So in followup to that, I'd be curious what the thoughts are on cold weather starting and starting after a long idle time and how to best protect these engines.
Thanks in advance,
George
Is this what you are describing? It is normal.
Detroit Diesel 6v92TA Cold Start: http://youtu.be/RNbM8AOyDLA (http://youtu.be/RNbM8AOyDLA)
Mine does the same thing. It starts and runs smooth on the first revolution when the average temperature is above 50. Any colder than 50 causes it to sputter and miss for 5-10 seconds, followed by a rolling idle for 10-20 seconds, then it quickly transitions to a smooth idle.
Probably the biggest contributor is the low compression of a turbo motor. Natural engines seem to settle into an idle faster. I've noticed that my engine is quite smoky and rolly for the first 10 - 15 seconds. I find that giving it a bit of throttle helps get past that, but I think I have my idle set too low.
Brian
Same with mine. I find that if I turn on my electric priming pump for a few seconds before starting, it helps noticeably.
JC
@Sparkplug, yeah pretty much how it sounds, although nowhere near as pronounced as that (video). It's just a bit of a lug, then with one last puff of white smoke, runs perfectly.
@brian, I've been hesitant to give it throttle right after cold starting it after a long idle, figuring I'd give it time to get oil moved around in all of the right of the right places, before adding additional stress (by adding throttle), until it's warmed up a bit. Does that matter?
@JC, I don't think I have an electric priming pump, or if I do I have no idea how it's operated :)
I'm talking about raising the running speed from around 550 rpm to maybe 650 - 700 rpm, or just enough to take it off the idle circuit, for about 30 seconds. I also find that doing the same thing helps it actually start. when I pull the blower off to install my aftercooler I will obviously do a complete tune up, including resetting idle speed and the starting aid. Idle speed is a total pain on an MCI install like mine, it's covered up with the throttle mechanism plate.
Brian
why good batteries help...and your engine is in better shape than you think...takes a lickin and keeps on tickin... ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-D2AX53VPk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-D2AX53VPk)
If it is just for an intermittent run up you could plug in the block heater before a start up for 15 - 30 minutes before a start up to reduce or eliminate the smoking/surging.
You maybe loosing fuel prime. Listen to this Youtube of the Big Bud 747 with its' 16V-92TTA starting. It is classic loosing fuel prime. Wants to start, but then you have to crank it for a bit to get the fuel back in the engine. Don't quite understand why they don't fix that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjDshU8pDxI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjDshU8pDxI) Good Luck, TomC
Be prepared ... >:(
fixed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NRaqgab0_w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NRaqgab0_w)
This only works if you have an older MUI, (mechanical unit injector) non electronic 2 stroke Detroit with the old fashioned "PULL TO STOP" manual shutdown lever to shut off the engine. You know ... the old kind you need to return to the pushed in position to start the beast.
We always left the shut down lever in the "OUT" or "SHUT DOWN" position after the engine was shut down. This was a local custom. Fire department long ago. Then if the mighty Detroit was cold and the weather temperature was cold, we would leave our foot off the throttle ...
... and just start and spin the Detroit for about 10 seconds to build up some heat in the cylinders. THEN we would crank while pushing IN the shut down lever, fueling the engine. Seemed to work just fine. If the engine did not start the first try, do it again. Good batteries required. We did not use starting fluid. HB of CJ (old coot)
They are all that way spin let it set spin again they fire,the turbo model have a starting aid adjustment to retard the timing to build heat.
The clicking he hears are the rocker arm and valves once they cover with oil it stops he may need a valve adjustment also
Great videos guys!
Geom,
If you live where it gets cold, install a block heater, it will make life simpler.
Cold starts on DD 2 strokes make your heart weak.
If you crank your engine like the first video, expect to buy a starter soon. 30 seconds is not as long as you might think but the starter will get pretty hot doing that. The starter in anything needs a cooling period after cranking like that.
Your engine should start immediately when the button is pushed. If it doesn't it may be getting weak. In cold weather use the block heater. It will then start immediately again.
I have seen other buses started that cranked a long time in my opinion, then loped for a while. the owner said it had always done that.
Makes me shudder.
speaking of shudddering..
in the arctic...you would shudder to know the amount of ether that gets sprayed into diesel engines....especially Detroits.
never hurt a thing.
except the 7.3 liter Fords... they had a air preheat switch in the air cleaner....blew the housings to smithereens.... :o
Seen a lot of that too Don.
watching the 16V-92 tractor startup sure needs more than a fuel dain back fix, from the exhaust, it needs someone who knows how to setup the rack/injectors etc. it ain't making full power with that setup. not real far off, but appears to need a proper touch.
Dave M
Thanks all for the replies. It sounds like this is fairly common behavior for a cold DD during startup. My situation is no where near as pronounced as the one in the first video and the engine starts fine, so I don't think it's a fuel issue. It just runs somewhat rough for a few seconds then runs fine from there.
I would love to get a block heater on this, but the way some of the lines are run (transmission cooler I believe), doesn't allow room to install a block heater. I'm not certain exactly but it had something to do with lack of space to maneuver one in.
I do try not to stand on the starter switch when starting. I let it turn over a couple of times and if it doesn't catch I let it ago, and try again a few seconds later.
For cold starting this engine came with an ether start kit. I'm not particularly fond of using it a whole bunch, but man it really makes a difference in cold starting. You can crank it a bunch of times and get no start, but one puff of ether and it's roaring to go.
I am curious what the general consensus is on using ether.
Our coach does this too when Cold.
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For mine it starts almost by just looking at the key, but does the loping idle thing for a solid 15-30 seconds if I don't touch the fun pedal. Is that bad?
You can adjust the "roll" out of one it doesn't hurt anything so don't worry about it
You really shouldn't be using either to start , find away to get a high output block heater your engine will love u for that
i do not understnd the don't use ether argument ...it's been used for eons and many rigs are fitted with devices to do so...
it won't hurt a thing used properly....avoid pre heaters etc.
The either capsules I didn't care for but today's starting fluid is not going to hurt one it has very little either
Quote from: luvrbus on October 20, 2014, 11:39:41 AM
The either capsules I didn't care for but today's starting fluid is not going to hurt one it has very little either
This is a "zero start" bottle. It's white and has a flammability rating of 2.1 (I would think pure ether would be higher but I don't know).
It makes a huge difference during start. Like said earlier, I can crank on it repeatedly without the "zero start" (when it's cold) and nada, but one burst (that's all I've ever had to use and I only hit the button once per cranking session) and she's roaring to go.
I just don't want to cause any harm by forcing it to start. So hopefully the zero start is not pure ether and is a more appropriate starting fluid (like you talk about above) :)
That is good starting fluid
60% Ethal ether
30% Heptane the rest is mineral oil and Carbon Dioxide
Fwiw a block heater will give you a more even cylinder pressure on cold starts and Cold Start will have one that will work some place on that engine they are big into cold weather starting of all different types and methods
good luck
if you have a place to put it past the aircleaner WD-40 will work too.
Some Detroits i have worked on had a little snap cover to flip and add ether at the air horn.
Quote from: luvrbus on October 20, 2014, 07:37:21 PM
That is good starting fluid
60% Ethal ether
30% Heptane the rest is mineral oil and Carbon Dioxide
Fwiw a block heater will give you a more even cylinder pressure on cold starts and Cold Start will have one that will work some place on that engine they are big into cold weather starting of all different types and methods
good luck
Thanks luvrbus.
Yeah I really want to get a block heater on there. We'll be spending winters in cold Midwest climates for a while to come, so it will definitely be good.
When I take it in for service next, I'll have'em look at it and see what they think about what it would take to work around this line blocking the way issue.
Maybe we'll plan a trip to AZ and swing by your place ;)
We used to use the capsules. About the size of your thumb. We always had a few kicking around the bottom of our briefcase. Once in a while one would break and make a mess of the paper work in there: M27 forms, time sheets, etc. Ah the memories... -20 or -30 in the dark early morning, looking for an ether pill or two with a flash light on the dash or in your briefcase, and pressing it onto the pin in the cup on the intake horn, with frozen fingers which got even colder, like white with ether on them... Then once the old Detroit fired up, it was all the diesel fumes you could breathe... Now when it is that cold, I don't usually have to start anything...
JC
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If you don't have a port to spray the ether, you can easily add one by drilling a hole in the air intake system and installing one of those threaded tire valve stems with the valve core removed. spray the spray in the stem, install the cap and start the engine.
When cold starting, everytime you stop to let the starter rest, it is extremely hard for the starter to get the engine turning again compared to letting the starter lope the engine over-it takes very little power to keep the engine turning over compared to stopping it several times. But, on the other hand, continuous starter isn't good either because it doesn't give the compression heat time to soak in. I have found the best is 10 seconds crank, 10 seconds off, etc. Good Luck, TomC
2-3 hours of block heater use is best if you have electricity. Saves wear in engine in long run and wasted fuel fog.
Quote from: TomC on October 21, 2014, 05:19:58 AM
When cold starting, everytime you stop to let the starter rest, it is extremely hard for the starter to get the engine turning again compared to letting the starter lope the engine over-it takes very little power to keep the engine turning over compared to stopping it several times. But, on the other hand, continuous starter isn't good either because it doesn't give the compression heat time to soak in. I have found the best is 10 seconds crank, 10 seconds off, etc. Good Luck, TomC
Thanks Tom! That's great info. It's always been a bit of a guessing game, to me, as to how long to try and how long to wait between tries (to avoid overloading the starter). I'll keep this in mind on future starts.
Too much ether from a hand held spray can is not very good either
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1265.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj520%2Fkrank57%2Fconrod_zpsafa31c25.jpg&hash=28286b9e42948f786597fb3b75ff983962a5ea9e)
I have found a circulating heater works better than a standard block heater. It spreads the heat over a much greater area if installed correctly.
^^^ouch! That looks expensive, lol!
Mine doesn't have a spot for handheld ether to be injected in ,nor do I really want to do that. It does, however, have a zerostart metered starting fluid system that is part ether and part heptane that doles out a premeasured amount.
But I definitely want a block heater. Maybe I'll get one for Gladys for Christmas, lol!
I have the ether start that is factory installed but have never used it, it looks like the original can up by the oil reserve tank that came with the bus.
I have a question tho, has anyone ever heard of one of these units sticking and just dumping the entire can in the engine? Or do they operate in such a way that would be impossible? Never had one apart or looked at one closely so I am in the dark here.
Thanks
what diesel engine did that come from....?
Quote from: krank on October 21, 2014, 03:09:01 PM
Too much ether from a hand held spray can is not very good either
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1265.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj520%2Fkrank57%2Fconrod_zpsafa31c25.jpg&hash=28286b9e42948f786597fb3b75ff983962a5ea9e)
That particlar one I have no idea but the one hanging in the maintenance office of one of my customers was MUCH heavier out of a 425 C block cat (if memory serves me correctly).
looks like a 3208 Cat to me
i thought Ford built that.... ;D
Quote from: luvrbus on October 21, 2014, 08:48:16 PM
looks like a 3208 Cat to me
It looks hydraulic locked, not detonated. I thought the issue with ether was detonation burning the pistons and breaking the rings. That's what happened the time I destroyed a generator motor I was mad at. 8)
Brian
You are probably right Brian I saw a lot of those in the few 3208 I owned that blew head gaskets they would always bend the rod
For those without a block heater, have you ever tried the old farmer's trick of putting a propane burner or bed of charcoal under the engine for say, 1/2 an hour before starting?
I figure it'll work better than a block heater, as it gets the oil nice and warm.
Just use a block heater. They aren't that expensive . It'll warm the oil coating the internal parts. The stiff oil in the pan doesn't cause most of the drag. Charcoal and lighter fluid or propane isn't free. My experience is that charcoal takes 1/2 hour to get up to temp. If you don't have electricity, fire up the generator. If you don't have a generator, and it is a dire emergency,fire away.
A Webasto or similar diesel boiler works great to preheat the engine. An hour at -30 and it starts like on the first of July.
JC
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It's been getting down to 29 and 30 degrees F here in Michigan. Had frost three times already. Tonight should get down to 34 or less so I plugged in my block heater and will show you on video how she starts at nearly freezing with a block heater overnight. Then I'll pull the heater and the next morning will make a video of the bus starting without the aid of the heater. You'll hear how mine lopes before finally getting its act together. Should make you feel better.
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Hey JC, isn't the temp on the first of July up to -20 where you live? :)
Quote from: Ed Hackenbruch on October 22, 2014, 08:33:17 PM
Hey JC, isn't the temp on the first of July up to -20 where you live? :)
No, Ed, that the
2nd of July! They have a big celebration about it. Oooo, CANADA!!!!
Quote from: Scott Bennett on October 22, 2014, 05:35:53 PM
It's been getting down to 29 and 30 degrees F here in Michigan. Had frost three times already. Tonight should get down to 34 or less so I plugged in my block heater and will show you on video how she starts at nearly freezing with a block heater overnight. Then I'll pull the heater and the next morning will make a video of the bus starting without the aid of the heater. You'll hear how mine lopes before finally getting its act together. Should make you feel better.
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Thanks Scott! 8)
I look forward to seeing those. ;D
Oh Canada is on the 4th. We only need a block heater then. That is a tuque: a wool hat. Anyway sometimes if we are lucky, summer falls on a Sunday, and we can have a picnic. Sorry for thread drift.
JC
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Temp was 32 F. Block heater plugged in all night.
https://vimeo.com/109823467 (https://vimeo.com/109823467)
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So it usually lopes like it did a little longer than you see here, but you get the idea. Cold start 38 degrees:
https://vimeo.com/109950201 (https://vimeo.com/109950201)
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That's how it should start.
Thanks for posting those Scott!
Mine sounds/runs like yours did in the second video, but for about 15 seconds (or a little longer) before it "rolls over" and runs smoothly. It doesn't sound bad, just... different, between the two events.
Yours got to the smooth part pretty quickly after starting, it seemed.
I'll continue to keep an eye on it and make sure it doesn't develop into more.
I'm also going to definitely elevate the priority of getting a block heater on there.
Thanks again!
Sure! And mine does normally lope for around 10 or 15 seconds just like yours. For some reason my bus was behaving for the camera lol
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Never had much occasion to start below 50 degrees with out heat or ether but lately below 50 takes about .20+seconds. to start. Lots of white smoke unburnt fuel and some roll. I wonder if the fuel we get now is what it was a few years ago, the mileage has certainly gone down, not just for me but the truckers too. Roger 4106
We had an old 6-53 in a GMC cabover and one cold start did not work very well at all. Just as I released that key on a long(er) cranking session the engine must have fired but not enough to run in the proper direction. Hmmm, my little tugboat sure smoked running backwards.
The 53 series was the only Detroit 2 stroke ever made you could order with glow plugs fwiw
Actually, the 6V-92 methane engine (a dismal failure) also had glow plugs. Good Luck, TomC
Not disputing you but I never saw glow plugs on 1 I know it had a air heater like a Cummins,the 6v92 didn't care much for the Ethanol either it flopped too
My 8V-71T had an air box heater that injected diesel fuel mist into the air box and a spark plug. Just struck me as wrong... Maybe it only worked when the engine was cranking or something. I didn't bother to figure it out, I just took it off and tossed it.
Brian
That was a military cold start system. I drove a self-propelled 155. Allis Chalmers used a diesel fired heater on the 3,4 and 6-71s dd in their crawler tractors built in the 1940's. It was mounted on the air chamber in place of one the covers. In the 1950, they went to a ether system.
We had M-109 self propelled 155's too, but I never drove one. My engine is (or was before I got at it) the exact same spec as the M-109 engine, but being from an M-110 self-propelled howitzer it had the turbo hung off the back. The M-109 had it hung off the side so it would have been about 100 hours less to convert to a bus engine...
Good to hear from another Gunner.
Brian