OK here it goes,, wiring to the stove red (hot) black (hot) white and copper 4 wires,,,,,, The new cooktop glass top drop in counter ! The wires are red (hot) black ( hot) and green!!! this in a 220 cooktop and is feed by 2 independent hot breaker 20 amp,,, What do I do with that white extra wire on wires going to the stove,,,, The bus was wired in 1995 and I am sure codes have changed. Any help would be nice! thanks john
If it's a true 240 VAC cooktop you can ignore the white neutral wire - just cap it off with a wire nut and tuck it out of the way. Green goes to green or frame, red to red and black to black. Replace the two independent 20 amp breakers with a single ganged (two in one) breaker, or install a ganging pin between the two toggles so they act as one.
Neutral is often not used in a 240 volt appliance, unless it is needed for clocks, lights, timers and such. Neutral gives the option of having a 120 volt pulled from one of the two hot feeds.
Brian
GOOD POINT,bevans6 ,I will keep the two independent breakers so I don't have a emty space on the panel ! I don't know why it was done that way 1 beaker turns on front burner and the other turns on the rear!
Two independent breakers are not really an option unless you want to retain an illegal and highly unsafe installation. It's against every code anywhere, for anything, to have two independent supplies into a single fixture that are not controlled together. Someone comes along to work on your bus, you're not around, pops the one breaker and gets killed from the other breaker still being hot. It's really not a good idea.
Edit, came on a bit strong. In the middle of replacing an electrical panel in one of my buildings that was wired all over with independant fuses when they should have been ganged. Going to cost me a lot to make it safe. Do as you please now that you know the right way to do it.
Brian
its a 220 volt, and the panel is a NEWMAR panel!
Am I on the right page, I thought you needed the white and the equipment ground was jus that.
Can I ask for a second opinion please and help me understand this a bit more.
Thanks Man appreciate it
On a current 240 volt appliance (old appliances were sometimes different) red and black are hot, green is the equipment grounding conductor, and neutral is white. Neutral is only required if a 120 volt source is needed inside the appliance. I can definitely see a cooktop not needing anything at 120 volts.
Edit, sorry, I guess me saying the same thing twice isn't really a second opinion.... :o
Brian
Ok im on the same page, ? is this where a need for green connection go to home at the box equipment ground.
Thanks guys
Yes, the green conductor needs to be bonded (connected) to the box that serves the appliance, to the metallic frame of the appliance, to the grounding strip in the main breaker panel and from there to the chassis of the bus. This is exactly the same as every single 120 or 240 volt outlet, appliance, switch, or anything else that is connected to the system. It's always the same, it never changes, there is no exception to grounding the boxes. Exactly how to accomplish that, with what kind of wire, is subject to NEC and RIVA codes.
Electricity is actually very easy, it's the codes that are hard.
Brian
OK I am good I will cap the white!! Now the second part of ? Do I attach the green wire from the stove to the bare copper wire on the bus ? and that bare copper wire is grounded to metal box and is run with metal armor all the way back to another junction box and then is grounded into earth! from 50amp plug
Yes you can attach the green wire to the bare copper wire. But with these questions I would suggest you get someone who knows about this sort of thing to inspect your work.
Brian
The induction type and about any drop in with push button controls require the 110 v leg for the controls better consult the manufacture on this one I just went through this on a Jenn/Aire
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi605.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt138%2Fjohnjem%2FP1000341.jpg&hash=e6f1fba1b9fbfb41f773ed87f0f78246c9b00834) (http://s605.photobucket.com/user/johnjem/media/P1000341.jpg.html) HERE is the old one I took out!
the new one
it would be best if you post a link to your exact model
it won't hurt a thing to pull a white wire thru your conduit
spiral armor is never an acceptable ground conductor
emt is under coded circumstances
why didn't you get a 110v...just curious
it looks like a re-branded Sealand stove top to me.
post a link
the on indicator lamp may need the neutral
post a link
an over temp safety shut off may need the neutral
post a link
according to this....there is no white wire....so there is no need for one.... but you do need a two pole 20 amp breaker....two twenty amp single pole breakers won't do it. even if they are illegally tied.
http://documents.designerappliances.com/CR1115-2110-2220-3240manlrvsd082611-CR2220-ASSY-CR2220.pdf (http://documents.designerappliances.com/CR1115-2110-2220-3240manlrvsd082611-CR2220-ASSY-CR2220.pdf)
That looks like the model with the residual heat lamp built in ?
Quote from: luvrbus on October 15, 2014, 04:01:33 PM
That looks like the model with the residual heat lamp built in ?
it does have the residual lamp but the install instruction says that there is no white provided in the 220v model just on the 110v
Just wire it like a 4 wire dryer you are seeing a lot of the 4 wire 220v stuff now on the market
OK guys I will repost the wires I have,,,, Newmar panel front burner breaker and a rear burner breaker,,both have legs going to stove so I have at the bus wiring red,black,white, copper is grounded to junction box (metal). on the stove part of the wiring I have red,black and green??? green wire goes to the copper, red goes to red ,black goes to black,and I should cap the white>>>??? Right
IT also says do not ground appliance with neutral house supply wire!! sorry fixed!!!
Natural, or neutral?
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on October 15, 2014, 02:40:43 PM
Edit, came on a bit strong. In the middle of replacing an electrical panel in one of my buildings that was wired all over with independant fuses when they should have been ganged. Going to cost me a lot to make it safe. Do as you please now that you know the right way to do it.
Brian
:) Actually there are a few things that need to put forcibly, and doing wiring correctly is one of them. Don't apologize there are too many people that really don't understand how some things work but that doesn't stop them from being the final word.
I have found your posts to be very useful, keep it up.
Lee, thank you.
Here is one thing I hate about codes, and the NEC in particular. The terminology sucks. I have no problems remembering live neutral and ground, but I have a huge problem remembering Line, Grounded and Grounding conductors. I always have to look up the difference between grounded and grounding, I flat out cannot remember that. With that said...
JohnJem, in case your comment is a question, here is the answer. Old installations of appliances like cooktops and dryers that used 240VAC may have been wired in a way that is no longer compliant with current code. Since any time you make any upgrade of anything in your electrical system you have to do that upgrade according to current code, they remind you that you should not use neutral to ground your appliance. Why? Because at one point you were allowed to kind of mix neutral and ground in such appliances since at a surface level they do the same thing - now you should take the opportunity to bring things up to current code. You have wiring with red, black (L and L), green (grounding conductor) and white (neutral, also known as grounded conductor) so you are good to go.
The other thing I thought of to remind you is to check that your cable is 12 gauge, since you have 20 amp breakers.
Edit. I apologize again but I am in a freaking bad mood tonight. Have you seen the markets? I am retired, I have no pension and I lost the equivalent of a full years income this week. I know what goes up comes down and goes back up again, but that just plain out sucks the hind teat. Do you know why the hind teat is the worst one? It's the one with the most $#!% on it. I'm a city boy, I just learned that, and laughed my head off...
Brian
Quote from: bevans6 on October 15, 2014, 02:40:43 PM
Two independent breakers are not really an option unless you want to retain an illegal and highly unsafe installation. It's against every code anywhere, for anything, to have two independent supplies into a single fixture that are not controlled together. Someone comes along to work on your bus, you're not around, pops the one breaker and gets killed from the other breaker still being hot. It's really not a good idea.
Edit, came on a bit strong. In the middle of replacing an electrical panel in one of my buildings that was wired all over with independant fuses when they should have been ganged. Going to cost me a lot to make it safe. Do as you please now that you know the right way to do it.
Brian
Wish I had this warning before I worked on an outside plug that had two circuits wired to it with the connector cut between the plugs. Started to pull the damn plug out of the box after I switched off the breaker and double checking the "top" plug was dead and quickly found out the bottom was live!
Quote from: krank on October 15, 2014, 05:58:50 PM
Wish I had this warning before I worked on an outside plug that had two circuits wired to it with the connector cut between the plugs. Started to pull the damn plug out of the box after I switched off the breaker and double checking the "top" plug was dead and quickly found out the bottom was live!
which code allows.... in a 110v outlet... go figger.
each duplex outlet in a house could be on a single breaker but the service panel probably would be bigger than a barn door.
and they would have to have breakers sized accordingly...do they even make 5 amp...
Breakers are sized to protect the wiring in the branch circuit, which I think must be 14 gauge minimum by code, so all the breakers would be 15 amp anyway. Last time I wired a kitchen I had to install special 14 gauge 3 conductor wire, with a special colour, and install ganged breakers so that the upper outlet in each box was separate from the lower outlet, and each box was fed by a single ganged breaker. Now I think the rule is 20 amp breakers and 12 gauge wire. I recall when I was first learning about this stuff you had to have a "kitchen table" outlet that was wired separately so you could plug in a clock...
Brian
single pole.... you cannot use two of these
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.grainger.com%2Frp%2Fs%2Fis%2Fimage%2FGrainger%2F1H822_AS01%3F%24mdmain%24&hash=0321387e518b12806d933513666b45c0614c399f)
double pole.... you need one like this
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.homedepot.com%2Fcatalog%2FproductImages%2F400%2F77%2F777e2e2b-54d1-497b-92b6-8a6304d9713f_400.jpg&hash=909da820a897931b609c3db1a233967cfea1ecdd)
Quote from: eagle19952 on October 15, 2014, 07:22:14 PM
single pole.... you cannot use two of these
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.grainger.com%2Frp%2Fs%2Fis%2Fimage%2FGrainger%2F1H822_AS01%3F%24mdmain%24&hash=0321387e518b12806d933513666b45c0614c399f)
double pole.... you need one like this
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.homedepot.com%2Fcatalog%2FproductImages%2F400%2F77%2F777e2e2b-54d1-497b-92b6-8a6304d9713f_400.jpg&hash=909da820a897931b609c3db1a233967cfea1ecdd)
I ran into a similar thing yesterday (in the shop, not the bus). I had to replace an old water heater, it had a 120 feed; the next breaker (also a single pole) was empty. The wiring (10 ga/4) to the old water heater had the red wire capped with wire nuts on both ends (dunno why a 4 conductor wire was used there).
Like this situation, the new water heater was 240V. I said "oh, no, this is going to be bad, I'm going to have to rewire" then I realized that since the neutral/ white and ground/ green were already connected to their respective bus bars, all I had to do was remove the 120 single pole and the next empty single pole breaker and put in a double pole; the black wire I connected to the upper side of the double pole breaker and the red to the lower. There was no white wire on the 240V (new) water heater, so I capped it with a wire nut at the heater connection box.
I don't know how much the double pole breaker cost -- as I was about to go buy one, I found one (new, still in the wrapper) in the supply drawer.
Quick question. Since the neutral wire isn't needed and it's capped off at the heater end, should I disconnect the other end at the bus in the box? I just assumed that it wouldn't do anything and couldn't cause any problem but now I wonder.
The AC 240 volts units don't have a white wire either but a dryer and a cook top do why ? Bruce I just install a new water heater also double elements 2 wires also with a green ground
here's the deal...
say your gonna sell the place or a county inspector comes to peek....
The first place he's going to look is in the service panel...
Wire nuts in a panel are a big NO NO....wild wires draw a lot of attention and then the question and answers start....
I would land the neutral in the panel...
And cap in the J box inside the heater or the wall...anywhere but the panel.
If the panel is accomplished "in a workmanship like manner" (Article 1)
well he's probably done looking.
Quote from: luvrbus on October 15, 2014, 08:10:44 PMThe AC 240 volts units don't have a white wire either but a dryer and a cook top do why ? Bruce I just install a new water heater also double elements 2 wires also with a green ground
Is it that the dryer and cooktop pull a 120V power supply? If you have that, you need a neutral for the "imbalance" between the two legs. But I don't know for sure. And, yes, that water heater I put in was double elements; two wires and the ground.
Quote from: eagle19952 on October 15, 2014, 08:55:16 PM
here's the deal...
say your gonna sell the place or a county inspector comes to peek....
The first place he's going to look is in the service panel...
Wire nuts in a panel are a big NO NO....wild wires draw a lot of attention and then the question and answers start....
I would land the neutral in the panel...
And cap in the J box inside the heater or the wall...anywhere but the panel.
If the panel is accomplished "in a workmanship like manner" (Article 1)
well he's probably done looking.
Thanks, pretty much what I thought but since I wasn't sure (never ran into this before), I wanted to ask. Appreciate the info!