Just wondering if anyone might have some input..
1994 MCI 102D3 powered by a 3176 CAT, with a 7 speed manual. 800,000 miles! Seems to run good, Alcoa wheels
Or a 1999 Prevost. Series 60, with an Allison B-500 (hub says about half the miles as the MCI, not sure if it is accurate yet..)
Both seem to run and drive well. (The Prevost will cost $2000-$3000 more to purchase)
A few thoughts... I spoke with a mechanic that says the cat is getting to where it may need a rebuild, but the 7 speed is cheap to repair and/or buy. The Allison is very expensive if it needs to be replaced.. Both will come with a valid E-Test (smog) however I am concerned with the cat failing it within the next few years....
Here is a link to the ebay ad for the Prevost:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111207558423?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1431.l2648 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111207558423?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1431.l2648)
I am going to start losing sleep over this...lol.. So any input would be great! Thanks in advance.. (BTW-I am in Ontario Canada)
Mike - Thats a pretty easy one - Apples to Apples the Prevost wins hands down. I would spend some money up front getting a good "bus" mechanic to look at the whole bus from front to back and give it a good drive for an hour or two before slumping down a wad of cash. If the owner wont let you take it for a nice long drive there may be something wrong with it (offer to pay for fuel of course).
Thats my pick of the day :)
-Sean
The MCI D does have a few rust problem areas the 3176 is today's Cat C-10 a smaller engine compared to the 60 series
Now the 99 Prevost is not with sin from 1997 to 2000 they had the worst front end suspension (IFS) of any bus on the road do your home work and be sure the front end has been upgraded ask for proof if not it will be big $$$$$ and check if the B500 has not been replaced at 500,000 miles it is at the end of it's life that will cost another 10 grand
good luck on your choice
Thanks guys...See I am all over the place..
The D series. One owner, As I understand it, one week spot on the D's is where the front suspension meets the frame. This had a bit of an issue, but has been welded. So it is good to go. The luggage bays all look pretty good! There is a bit on the flat panel (where a bus company would put their name) no holes though....
The luggage bays on the Prevost, will need a bit of love... (patches)
They both have good and bad....!
That being said.. The MCI is about $2500 less money...!
I am with Sean, the Prevost with the 60 DDC and the Allison got my vote.
Dave M
Run as fast as you can away from the 3176 Caterpillar! That engine has an aluminum spacer block between the cast iron head and the cast iron block. If you overheat once, all hell breaks loose in trying to realign everything. That engine almost bankrupted Caterpillar. That is why Cat brought out the C10 and C12-full cast iron head and block without the aluminum spacer block.
Series 60 will be the better choice. Both buses are good. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on November 08, 2013, 02:18:31 PM
Run as fast as you can away from the 3176 Caterpillar! That engine has an aluminum spacer block between the cast iron head and the cast iron block. If you overheat once, all hell breaks loose in trying to realign everything. That engine almost bankrupted Caterpillar. That is why Cat brought out the C10 and C12-full cast iron head and block without the aluminum spacer block.
Series 60 will be the better choice. Both buses are good. Good Luck, TomC
I have read that, but it seems that the later 3176's (just before the c10 and c12) were decent? They changed the design of the engine block. Went from 2 piece to one piece or something like that? Not too sure.. The company that has the coach, has had it since new, so all records are there. This was a good engine for them they say. Also, decent on fuel.
That being said, I would probably still be more comfortable getting into a S60...
Here is an action shot of the very Prevost of which we speak... :)
(https://busconversionmagazine.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.busdrawings.com%2FTransit%2Fontario%2Fgo%2Fprevostxl%2Fgo1613.jpg&hash=9194719213fd6f88d63a49c01c1c8a0ea0404bb3)
Oooh, so you're like up there in Caahnadaah, eh???
Is that the 99 model listed on Kijiji ?
Quote from: luvrbus on November 08, 2013, 03:13:36 PM
Is that the 99 model listed on Kijiji ?
That is the one. Go Transit #1613
So If I get the Prevost.... Who wants to help "un wrap" it ??
Michael -
My vote is for the Prevost.
But first. . .
What do you want to DO with the bus? Please elaborate for us so that we can give you some intelligent suggestions.
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
Toromont Cat had to put on a third shift just to keep up with exploding 3176's. Junk does not come even close to describing them.
Kevin
I am looking to made a basic home built conversion. I will be the only driver. I have wanted one of these for as long as I can remember...
As far as the CAT 3176, like I said I thought the later ones were better, due to an engine block re design... The Prevost is looking better and better..
Michael,
Welcome to you over here. Lot's of good info for sure. I replied to you on the MCI board also....http://mcibustalk.com/bbs/index.php?topic=788.0 (http://mcibustalk.com/bbs/index.php?topic=788.0)
As I have said before, make sure you count the cost, but don't be scared of buses. I do not know enough about Prevost to say one way or the other. However, I would look long and hard at a Prevost.
The front suspension can be an issue. However, a way bigger issue is where the rear axles are. Often you will not be able to see the rust under there. Where it really matters is all covered up. Some D's have a stainless steel frame, taking care of that issue (but I have yet to see a stainless frame D, fwiw). You can plan on the frame above the air bags needing to be fixed, which isn't bad ($5,500 down here). The part you really need to be concerned about is the main Ibeams on the frame that rust out. Terminal rust at that point.
I said this on the other board, but if there is major rust on the exposed tag axle support, I would be very careful.
As Clifford said, the B500 is expensive, if you have to replace it.
That being said, I have no idea what the weak points are in the Prevost. Somebody here might know. That being said, we were the first on the board (that I know of) to find out about the major hidden rust issues with the D.
Enjoy, whatever you do.
John
Thanks for the insight... I suppose that if the front has had work done to it.. The rear may not be far behind. Afterall, I am in a Canadian rust belt..
A few things about the Prevost that are nice - Driver's seat is an air seat. Disc brakes.
hmmmm.
Disc brakes on the Prevost? That would almost seal the deal for me. I really wish ours had disc brakes.
Since it is almost identical, if you do choose the Cat 3176, you can replace it with the C12. Good Luck, TomC
Quote from: TomC on November 08, 2013, 10:58:51 PM
Since it is almost identical, if you do choose the Cat 3176, you can replace it with the C12. Good Luck, TomC
Good point! I hadn't thought of that...
With the price of older Prevost conversions being as cheap as they are today I wouldn't touch either bus with a 10 foot pole.
With a little patience and some research professionally converted Prevost coaches are available for far, far less than you could convert your own, even if you valued your labor at $0. You cannot even acquire the parts for what some conversions are selling for. And if you want a project to express your inner creative desires buy one and redo the interior or systems to your heart's content. Even with a completed older conversion there is plenty to do on one.
I am with you Jon a low mileage Prevost motorhome built on a new chassis, without good documentation I would not touch that bus
The 60 series is at the mileage where it is going to need work if that is the original B500 it is going to need work,one hasn't lived till he buys parts to rebuild the IFS on those,the Knorr brakes are like robbing a bank to rebuild great brakes but expensive to work on and don't think for a minute a Prevost won't rust
There is just something about the asking price for the bus that scares me it could be a diamond or a sex stone he needs to look past the price and do a lot of home work before parting with his cash IMO
Some people are just BUSNUTS!! ;D
Again the Prevost if you must build. I understand the possible reasons. Cost upfront--delay cash outlay..over time... personal pride of the build...the challenge... to be different.. look at my project! Do you see anything normal about mine? Parts and tech support for your coach from prevost next to none! visit prevostcar.com look up under tech publications and you will find wiring diagrams for your coach by unit number. The wires have numbers tattooed on them every few inches. If you have 70 or 8o grand laying around you can prob buy a factory conversion of same vintage ready to roll. Prob a home done one in the 30-40 range. if you lucky. Just my opinion--If I wanted to be like everyone else well you finish that thought..........
Thanks.. I don't know why.. but I do want to convert myself. Honestly.. I am not a fan of leather, marble and mirrors.. I know most do like that style, but it is just not me....
Some pros and cons:
Prevost -
Pros-
-Drives nice
-No restroom to tear out
-This was a GO Transit unit that was retired 2010. FWIW, I am sure that the coach was well kept at least until then.
-I like the Stainless exterior.
-I like the idea of disc brakes
-I like the idea of a seat with air
-Still has the LCD display (not sure why I like that..could be fun)
-Series 60 with an Allison B500R
Cons-
-Allison B500R haha...
-Can't say for sure how long this has been sitting.
-I don't get that warm fuzzy feeling from the seller..lol
-No recent history
-Coach has a wheelchair access door on the side. (although that might not be a bad thing..)
-Steel wheels have rust
-Body wrap that would probably take forever to remove
-will need a few patches in the luggage bays
MCI 102D3
Pros-
-Drives nice
-I feel very comfortable with the seller. Actually one of the owners came to my Wedding
-Full service history
-Cosmetically better. Cleaner luggage bays
-Alcoa Wheels
-In service until Oct. 31
Cons-
-not a series 60
-manual trans (although can also go in pros, because it is way cheaper to own down the road)
ERRRR...
Quote from: robertglines1 on November 09, 2013, 05:44:42 AM
Again the Prevost if you must build. I understand the possible reasons. Cost upfront--delay cash outlay..over time... personal pride of the build...the challenge... to be different.. look at my project! Do you see anything normal about mine? Parts and tech support for your coach from prevost next to none! visit prevostcar.com look up under tech publications and you will find wiring diagrams for your coach by unit number. The wires have numbers tattooed on them every few inches. If you have 70 or 8o grand laying around you can prob buy a factory conversion of same vintage ready to roll. Prob a home done one in the 30-40 range. if you lucky. Just my opinion--If I wanted to be like everyone else well you finish that thought..........
We are on the same page.. you and I..
I don't want payments..!
I would take the Prevost and not worry about the tranny as if it works ok now you may not use it enough to fail as an RV it won't be doing start and stop driving. No doubt you won't accumulate the miles that a commercial rig does. Jerry
Quote from: Jerry32 on November 09, 2013, 06:48:57 AM
I would take the Prevost and not worry about the tranny as if it works ok now you may not use it enough to fail as an RV it won't be doing start and stop driving. No doubt you won't accumulate the miles that a commercial rig does. Jerry
You know.. I was thinking that too. I will probably never even put 100000 miles on it in my lifetime.. :'(
Michael - I wonder about your statement of not putting on 100,000 miles. I think it depends upon your particular age and economic condition. I was 30 when I bought our bus. We have now put over 70,000 miles on it. With diesel prices having stabilized under $5/gal I don't see us slowing down at all. There is still so much of the country we want to explore. There are many more places we want to take our kids. So - just carefully weigh your view of usage so as to not make a short sighted decision now.
Have fun! I still remember my feelings and excitement when looking at our bus. The drive home from California to MN in November was very memorable with a non-working heater!
Your best insurance is go to a CAT dealer and buy the sampling kit take samples from the radiator,differential, engine oil and the transmission then have somebody pull all the information from the ECU on both engines.
If the center bore is going out of the 60 series a sample from the radiator will pick that up I don't know if a oil sample will pickup the bull gear bearings wear maybe or maybe not
I just have that feeling the Prevost seller is not telling all
I have some experience with a '95 D3 with S60 and 7 speed manual Eaton/Fuller, having maintained and driven that bus for a hockey team for several years. I don't know anything about Prevosts.
That D was all stainless. The only rust issues were on the side panels (galvanized) above the baggage tanks. Also electrical wiring was always a concern because of corrosion brought on by moisture and road salts: in the panel outside below driver, in the battery compartment, in the engine compartment (Webasto), above in and around the rad and intercooler fans. Otherwise a really good, solid, basic coach. Thousands were built, good support from MCI and independent shops and suppliers.
7 speed manual: if you have driven buses and/or trucks before, you know what you are getting into. If not here is my opinion: nice low 1st gear will climb up a tree. Plenty of gears for all conditions. Indestructible (almost). Fuel efficient. But straight cut gears: you will have to learn how to shift it, and even once good at it, you still have to pay attention every inch of the way and concentrate to shift it properly. It is fun and easy to shift for the first few hours into a trip, but coming home at 4 in the morning from a far away game, I wished I had an automatic, even though I have driven buses millions of miles with straight cut manuals. And neither your wife or friends are likely to be able to drive your bus, which might be necessary one day when you get hurt or become ill in the middle of a trip. Oh and reselling a bus with a manual some day will be hard. Most people will want an automatic. As much as I like manuals myself, autos are SO nice and easy to drive. Good luck.
JC
Michael,
That B500R Allison, does the R indicate it having the Retarder ? That is a biggie if it has the retarder, many ++++
Quote from: wg4t50 on November 09, 2013, 08:12:27 AM
Michael,
That B500R Allison, does the R indicate it having the Retarder ? That is a biggie if it has the retarder, many ++++
I am pretty sure the "R" is for retarder..
"GO Transit took delivery of 20 Prevost Le Mirage XL45 coaches in 1999. The coaches are all powered by the Detriot Diesel Series 60 engines and an Allison B500R5 transmission."
As found here:
http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/gotransit_prevost.html (http://www.kevinsbusrail.com/gotransit_prevost.html)
If it has the retarder, it will have a switch to turn off when road is slick/wet to prevent sliding the drive axle. The setup can vary wildly, my setup also has a stick/lever on side panel with 6 positions to manual select the amount of effect, or can leave it at 0 and let it work in a 3 mode operation 1/3, 2/3 or full 3/3 effect, on my setup the retarder is rated at 2,000 ft lb restriction to drive shaft max 3/3. Along with the disk brakes, it will surprise you at the stopping, things will pile up from all over, in the front if you get on the brakes, unlike my MC7.
If you could find a truck with a C12 and 10spd Autoshift, you could pull the entire engine and replace it. Then you'd have the best of all worlds. Good Luck, TomC
I guess the official name is:
Allison World B500R5 transmission
Not sure how old this ad is... but it looks like they were $29,990 at one point:
http://www.bargainbusnews.com/Buses/2697-1999PrevostXL-40/ (http://www.bargainbusnews.com/Buses/2697-1999PrevostXL-40/)
I would go with the Prevost, but it doesn't matter which one you get, you'll always wonder...Did I get the right one ??? ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: michael11 on November 09, 2013, 10:51:19 AM
Not sure how old this ad is... but it looks like they were $29,990 at one point:
http://www.bargainbusnews.com/Buses/2697-1999PrevostXL-40/ (http://www.bargainbusnews.com/Buses/2697-1999PrevostXL-40/)
Michael -As a newbie, you're not real familiar with that website, but it has a reputation of "stealing" ads from other places and then reposting on their site with increased prices. Beware. . .
There's a factory Prevost conversion 20 minutes from me that's for sale, owner passed away. Not sure of the year model, but the asking price on the "for sale" sign is $79K. If interested, I can get the contact info for you. It's just south of Fresno, CA.
As others have said, in today's severely depressed market, it's far better to pick up a completed coach and remodel rather than starting from scratch. OTOH, as on of our long-term posters likes to say, "Do it your way!"
FWIW & HTH. . .
;)
I don't follow you on this you say Go Transit took delivery on 20 XL45 buses is the one you are looking at part of that order ? if so it is missing 5 ft
Quote from: luvrbus on November 09, 2013, 03:00:41 PM
I don't follow you on this you say Go Transit took delivery on 20 XL45 buses is the one you are looking at part of that order ? if so it is missing 5 ft
ahhh. Good point. Whoever put that info. up on that site made an error..
I stole the wrong info... :-\
Get them both and let us know which one was the better deal. :)
Quote from: opus on November 09, 2013, 04:41:15 PM
Get them both and let us know which one was the better deal. :)
haha...If only I could....
Al I can say is that backing in to RV spots in some parks is a whole lot easier with an auto than a clutch. When that clutch wears out that manual won't go. Jerry
Quote from: Jerry32 on November 10, 2013, 12:42:01 PM
Al I can say is that backing in to RV spots in some parks is a whole lot easier with an auto than a clutch. When that clutch wears out that manual won't go. Jerry
Funny you mention that.. I was shunting some trucks at work tonight, and remembered just bad my left knee actually is..
Honestly, not trying to be different, but I wouldn't buy either personally. I'd keep looking. And I would be looking down south. Those southern coaches have so little rust it makes me want to cry we bought ours in Michigan and had a lot of welding repairs done while we had it stripped down to the frame. Manual tranny stinks, so that and rust makes me say no to the MCI and the Prevost/corrosion/bad vibes from seller/expensive tranny, all say no to that too...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1). Clumsy fingers may contribute to mistakes.
My Dina was owned by a charter company out of Atlanta. Very little rust except surface rust on some of the metal in the engine and surface rust on some of the undercarriage up front. I picked up a ton of rust when I drove back through a snowstorm in Wisconsin in Jan 2011. It was too cold at home to hose off the salt all over the bus and it rusted up a lot of stuff.
Dinas can rust badly. I have seen some Dinas run in Chicago that had major rust damage. At least one even had the aluminum skin eaten through by the salt around the wheel wells. (The skin is a good 1/8" thick.)
Fwiw Sean's eagle has practically zero corrosion. It makes me sick. I'd love to be able to just turn any random nut or bolt without freaking out about the rust...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1). Clumsy fingers may contribute to mistakes.
Quote from: michael11 on November 09, 2013, 06:33:51 AM
Thanks.. I don't know why.. but I do want to convert myself. Honestly.. I am not a fan of leather, marble and mirrors.. I know most do like that style, but it is just not me....
Some pros and cons:
Prevost -
Pros-
-Drives nice
-No restroom to tear out
-This was a GO Transit unit that was retired 2010. FWIW, I am sure that the coach was well kept at least until then.
-I like the Stainless exterior.
-I like the idea of disc brakes
-I like the idea of a seat with air
-Still has the LCD display (not sure why I like that..could be fun)
-Series 60 with an Allison B500R
Cons-
-Allison B500R haha...
-Can't say for sure how long this has been sitting.
-I don't get that warm fuzzy feeling from the seller..lol
-No recent history
-Coach has a wheelchair access door on the side. (although that might not be a bad thing..)
-Steel wheels have rust
-Body wrap that would probably take forever to remove
-will need a few patches in the luggage bays
MCI 102D3
Pros-
-Drives nice
-I feel very comfortable with the seller. Actually one of the owners came to my Wedding
-Full service history
-Cosmetically better. Cleaner luggage bays
-Alcoa Wheels
-In service until Oct. 31
Cons-
-not a series 60
-manual trans (although can also go in pros, because it is way cheaper to own down the road)
ERRRR...
But the question is will he be the cause of your divorce?
;D BK ;D
Quote from: B_K on November 13, 2013, 02:33:46 PM
But the question is will he be the cause of your divorce?
;D BK ;D
well that is possible... ;D
Just thought I'd update... Actually not much to update, as I haven't bought either yet.
Now I am looking at a 1997 H3-41 vs. the 99 XL
any thoughts on the h3-41?
Is it really an H3-41 or an H3-45, or is it really a 97. What engine? Some converters if it is a conversion titled them as much as 4 years after the chassis date.
Anyway, the H3, like the XL is a very good coach. The H has a stainless steel frame so corrosion on the chassis is not an issue. Parts, technical support and service are all available. I know of no weaknesses in the H3 worth mentioning. If it is a 97 chassis it could have the IFS or a solid front axle. The early IFS seemed to have issues with bushings and occasionally upper ball joints, so it is best if you sort out specifically what actual model year you are looking at.
I owned a 1997 H-41 with a series 60 and with the IFS look for the straight axle ::) the IFS from 1997 to 2000 was a problem with Prevost 2000 they redesign the IFS and still had problems till 2004
The 1997 model will have frame less windows nice buses but check the roof and caps Prevost is proud of the fiberglass parts for that bus BTDT
The 1st H- 41 came out in 1994 all had series 60 with the Allison B500 if that helps that is why they were built was to accept the series 60 easier than the h-40
good luck
Rivets Rule!
I believe the driver in an "H" sits at lower level than the "floor" of the rest of the coach. (unlike an XL that is flat - driver to tail) If you are planning to use the driver area as part of your living space make sure to take that into consideration. This also puts the co-pilot on a different level that the driver. My 82 is setup like this and you loose some floor space and it's a little awkward chatting with the co-pilot that is 1 1/2 feet higher than you.
Dan
Whichever you choose, having a pre 2002 (no EGR) Detroit Series 60 is a big plus. Next would be a Cummins M11/ISM with Caterpillar C12 close behind. Once you get past 2002, you'll have EGR on the engine-which isn't a problem. What is usually is the EGR cooler. Lots of problems with them leaking. Good Luck, TomC