BCM Community

This behavior may effect everyone who has a "bus" or claims to have a bus. Perhaps we say something like coach or mobile mansion, or ......... in place of bus.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12535853 (http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12535853)

Just putting it out there for discussion as this seems to be a growing issue around the country. The word bus seems to be raising red flags more and more.

Why?

Grant;

Maybe they should park in the city councils parking lot with as many Busnuts and their Coaches as can afford to drive up thee and lend a hand. This is actually happening all over the country right now because so many are losing their homes etc. They are getting buses and RV's to move into. City councils are puttingup no overnight parking signs.
On the other hand Santa Barbara county is welcoming over nighters and longer. Interesting

Dave

i'm not sure what your point is about bad reputation?  the bus is not necessarily attractive, but if the person is doing the best he can, and he's not making a mess by the river, then i'm with him.  on the other hand, if he's leaving garbage for others, trashing the area, then he needs to clean up.  Living cheap does not mean avoiding personal responsibility.  if he is living by the river, not making a mess, but not hurting anything or anyone, the council should help, no hurt.
i'm not getting a bad reputation from a person living on his own, not bothering anyone, not creating a mess, just because he doesn't have a newell.

hmmm, I bet someone on council knows someone who wants the land by the river to turn into a gated neighborhood for the rich.

There is an ongoing problem here with groups of travelers (gypsies, Romany etc) setting up camp either on common land or private land around towns and villages. I realise that this is a different situation to individuals camping for long periods in buses, as reported in this story - legally though the situation is the same, which is that it is extremely difficult to get rid of people who are deliberately flouting civil laws, but are not necessarily doing anything criminal. It can take many months, if not years, to go through the necessary legal processes to get trespassers of this type to move, during which the land-owner or local inhabitants often have their lives ruined by their unwelcome guests. It's especially annoying when it you realise how wealthy the travelers often are - they pay no tax but often earn good livings from running all sorts of cash-in-hand businesses (tarmac-ing is a favorite), and you can guarantee that whenever you see a travelers site there will be plenty of luxury cars and expensive 4x4s in evidence

As I say, I'm not suggesting that this is anything like the situation being reported in this article - it's just that you need to be very careful about turning a blind-eye to people camping for long periods on common land without permission - it's a situation that can quickly escalate and become almost impossible to stop.

Jeremy

Oh gee!! I hate heavy handed government! Anyway, the City has a problem with them because it is "against zoning" to live there because it is a "flood plain"......... oh my. Think about it, flood areas are bad because a house is stationary and the house gets damaged and swept away which costs $$ and lives and tax dollars. Okay, I agree a stationary house there is a bad idea. But in a bus the person can move if heavy rains are expected. Maybe when foul weather is expected they should send police to the area to warn the campers and then everyone is happy

Some of the mountain bikes pictured were probably worth more than the vehicles in question ;)

The township where I formerly lived had a zoning ordinance against people "camping" for more than 14 days on the land of a friend or relative.

My plan was to invite people to stay that I didn't know!  Completely legal!

These people who want to "protect their property value" also want the cheap labor these workers provide, and the tourism that their labor supports.  You can't have both.  If you want cheap labor, you need to make provisions for these people to live somewhere.

Steve Toomey
pabusnut

I pretty much support the idea of people doing what they want and living as they please as long as no one else is harmed.  My concern in this case would be sanitation.  Those buses don't look like they a driving to a dump station every few days, and "stuff" making it's way into the river could be a real problem.

Besides the obvious "flood plain zoning" problem, maybe some of these people having their camping area so littered with all kinds of junk is also a real problem.

About the flood plain, I am sick and tired of people that put up houses of any kind where they are told not to, and then when the inevitable disaster strikes, OUR tax dollars are supposed to provide them a new "home".  

And I really liked the propane gas line plumbing the guy in the white International skoolie did to his water heater! ;D Maybe a few busnuts here could follow suit... ;)

If any of you guys have been in that area like we were this summer you would see why the city wants it gone 5 years ago that was a nice family parking area we always stayed there,we saw one guy dumping his toilet in the river (a 5 gal can) nasty people there now people.
Lots of people  can not afford money for campgrounds like the ones in Quartzsite but they are clean you never see that in Quartzsite from the people living there 6 months a year.
Moab is a nice area it shouldn't have that JMO.
I guess taking pride is not high on the list for those people living in that spot you can be poor with no money and still be neat and clean there is no law against that


good luck

Usually, news stories like this show refuse, sewage and other conditions to justify the eviction.  Since they didn't show that stuff, it would seem that these people are doing a good job of maintaining a standard.  But, on the other hand, if you can't persecute the homeless who can you persecute.  I, personally, have trouble with anyone that says they're a member of a "grand council".  Is the head of the council called a wizard too?  I guess there is something to the town moto--"Moab Bites."

Lin, the Forest Service has a place not far from there with water and a dump station those people can have for 140 bucks a year but it has rules and those people don't like rules.
I have tried to help the homeless for years and it always comes back and bites me in the but.
I offered a couple with a young child a motor home that the wife got on one of trade lol every thing works on it just needs tires and the guy checked it over and had the balls tell me if I put a set of tires on it he would take it how in the hell are you going to help those kind of people ?  enjoy Bryce see you soon

I don't have a problem with full timers living 'off the grid'.
I do have a problem with free loaders. Organized society works best for everyone when everyone contributes. When you have a segment that looks for & exploits the system that was set up for the truly needy, that places an unjust burden on those who do contribute.
Property taxes are what funds county services such as EMS, fire & police protection. If they are squatting, they aren't paying their share.

I'm not a fan of multiple families renting a single house - Why? History proves it is the rare exception that they don't trash the place & leave a huge mess behind for someone else to clean up.

Who is going to bear the cost of cleaning up after them when they leave?

About the flood potential,
Sure they can drive away - but will they listen to the advance warning OR will they claim it to be a conspiracy to get them to leave? If they heed the advance warning, can they get all their stuff (including their trash) loaded quick enough. Maybe their rig will start without the need for additional repairs. . . .
Not all floods are predictable - If one happens, who is going to bear the cost for the rescue efforts? Ever stop to think that the safety of the first responders may have played a part in the zoning requirements?

Flood danger is REAL:

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-11/us/arkansas.campground.deaths_1_flood-waters-rv-site-kthv?_s=PM:US (http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-11/us/arkansas.campground.deaths_1_flood-waters-rv-site-kthv?_s=PM:US)


Sewage is a real important consideration too - proper disposal is important for everyone downstream.

If they were in an authorized place, those things have been considered.

And another thing, if they are on public land, why do they have a right to use it continuously during the tourist season & deprive others of a chance to enjoy it?
If it is private land, consider the land owner for a moment - how would you like not being able to do what you want with the land you own & are paying taxes on?

The idea of the flood plain doesn't hold water, ( I can't believe I said that lol), if people couldn't live on a flood plain then the greater part of the midwest would have to move.  I've found that when people have a financial interest in a place they tend to care for it better, we have very little problem with homeless people up here mainly because of the climate, they tend to filter further south where the weather is more agreeable.  There are too many reasons for a person to be homeless to be able to list, it may even be a personal choice on their part, who knows.  Personally I feel badly, I know that many of us are a paycheck away from being in their position, with todays economy and the foreclosure rates a person could be on the street with the stroke of a pen.  There is no easy answer to the problem and it'll continue to grow, transient workers will follow the crops regardless and others will continue to live a problematic existance possibly due to dependancies of one sort or another, some may do so by choice, it's hard to determine why it happens, just the fact that it does happen and will continue to happen is tragic for the children involved that get swept along with the parents.  In the last year we've done 6 benefits for people that were loosing their homes to raise the money to get them caught up, of those, 2 ended actually loosing their homes the other 4 were able to continue to tread water and get by, some of them got caught up in the easy credit scams and bought more home than they could afford.  In the past the bank was allowed to say you didn't earn enough to buy that house, now that isn't done as much as it used to be.  That alone is a commentary on our changing times.  Sad but true, we're in trouble and I don't think it'll ease anytime soon, I don't blame anyone but ourselves, we're the ones carrying the pocketful of credit cards, nobody put a gun to our heads and told us to buy that vacation home, we became greedy and the business world stepped in and said they would help us satisfy our greed, there was no reason the jones would have to stay ahead of us, they have 2 cars so we can have 3, then we miss a payment and the struggle is on.  Many of us could be looking for a place to park our buses after the lock is put on what used to be our front doors, sad but very possible.

Rampeyboy is probably correct. Development always comes first, because it pays big tax dollars and fees to City Councils. And Oh Gee it is an Election year too. Funny how these stories come out so close to November? Yes sanitation is always a problem with people who can't afford to go to the "Camping resorts and time shares".
Wouldn't it be better for all, for them to put port-A- potties out there for them and charge a fee to the people and businesses who need them for their cheap labor, Win Win

These people are humans beings and were born and will die like we all will someday and choose their life style and some don't but just end up there and still need a place to live. Affordable housing really is political and doesn't work so what is the answer?
Maye we could spray them with bug killer and they will just go away???????????????? This kind of thing hs gone on for centuries SOLUTIONS would be better than complaints. Is it always because I pay taxes and they don't gee wake up folks.

Dave

Maybe I am just prejudiced. Sometime ago my children and I were forced into being "homeless", because we were escaping a bad situation that we were forced into. My children were 10 and 12 years old at the time. Fortunately I had a motorhome, so although we were "homeless" according to the state we had it much better then many people. We parked in the driveway of someone's house but their neighbor complained to the police (who had his house up for sale at the time) and although we were clean we had to leave. We went from parking lot to parking lot, etc. I learned where to park and for how long without getting woke up at 3am and told to leave. We didnt party or have bar-b-ques in parking lots or otherwise draw attention to ourselves. I found a dump station with a place to fill up water for free. My kids were at the time kinda upset about all the moving around we had to do and eventually I was able to find more permanent parking in another friend's driveway where the neighbors didnt mind a bit. Today my kids talk about that period in our life very fondly and thought it was fun. I do agree these people need to clean up their act, if nothing else then for the example they are setting for thier kids (though I didnt notice any kids in the pictures and may have just missed that) But I would have given my right arm for a place to park back then for $140 a month!! It would have made schooling sooooo much easier and given the kids more stability.

  By the looks of it, its how they are living and for how long they have been living there that has gotten the councils attention. I know there are many having a difficult time, in a situation they didnt plan. But it appears these people are not there from circumstance as much as choice. They choose to work hit and miss jobs, and coast the rest of the time. I dont have a problem with that. What I would have aproblem with is people parking semi permanently, and not moving when asked. I dont think people as a whole really mind Gypsys, they come, they go, they leave no trace. These people arent gypsys, and they dont appear to be leaving no trace. Spray painting the sides of the Bus doesnt help either, what if everyone started painting protest statements on their house?

 If they left for a while, picked a new spot up the road, and waited for everything to cool down, the problem would disappear and they could come back again. But they dont want to do that, they are being obstinate, and in this case the Council will probably enact legislation that will wreck it for everyone else. You and me both.

 They stayed too long.

There will never be a development on that river in a flood plain and besides no telling who owns the water rights to the river it probably belongs to some city in CA.

good luck

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the homeless - I am against free loaders & those that 'work the system' so they don't have to work a full time job.

Ever hear the expression "beggars can't be choosers" ?
In a democratic republic, the more $$ you have, the more options become available. That provides the incentive to improve things.
If 'they' ain't paying, 'they' shouldn't get the same options as those that do pay. Otherwise, why can't I use the next nice conversion I see?

I think it is a good thing to offer assistance to those in need. I'm not too thrilled about entitlements or enabling though it is often impossible to tell the difference at the time.

During her time of homelessness, Happycamperbrat was looking to abide by the rules & worked within them - even tho it added to her burden. She worked within the established rules to get along with society as a whole. One of the results is a family with fond memories free from the bitterness of being perceived as victims.

The 'transient bus people' don't seem to grasp the concept of working with society. They seem to be of a mindset that they have the right to do wherever they want regardless of the impact on others.

From what I gathered, the 'city' hasn't told them they can't live in their buses, but just that the city doesn't want them in that location.


It seems the 'transient bus people' want to choose where they park without the obligation of paying for it.

I sincerely hope that we all see the negative ramifications of letting that be allowed to become a legal precedent.

Without knowing more about the specifics of the case it's hard to tell what exactly is going on, we all know that news accounts are entirely unbiased at all times don't we lol, we can sit here and second guess the situation all day and still not know what is happening there, but we do see it happening all over the country, again, we don't exactly know why, but we do know that this may be a growing trend and the more facts we can find will help us to better understand the trend if that is what it turns out to be.  With the economy slipping further into the dumpster we'll probably find more people thrust into dire situations, some will go that route anyway, others may not have a choice, I remember my grandfather telling me about the shanty towns that sprung up all over the country during the depression, I hope and pray that we don't see economic conditions like that again but it could happen again and could happen to some of us.

Ummm, Lin?  Moab is located in Grand County.....That is why the County Council is called the Grand County Council.   ;D

OK,  I am probably way off base here, but here goes.

We live in a prosperous country where few really go hungry.  We enjoy probably the highest standard of living (for our populus) in the free world.  We have all sorts of freedoms.  Other countries view us as rich even if we are at the bottom of the middle class. 

I dislike when we are mandated by our government to maintain a certain standard of living.  Try building a new home and tell them you will not install indoor plumbing or electric. Public utilities are almost inevitably mandated. Even if you have an acceptable, and legal solution you most likely will not get a building permit.  Home school families frequently have trouble with school districts who believe it is their job to assure that your children receive the appropriate level of social interaction and adequate education.  It is nearly mandated that you have a high speed internet to access all the information now that is web-only in many cases.  Soon health insurance will be mandatory for all people, and its likely that the folks who can least afford to get ripped off--will!  We have occupation taxes most everywhere, which are funny because they are not for "occupation" as in employment, but occupation-occupying space in their municipality. The cost of existing alone in this country is probably well above the average annual incomes of people in most third world countries. 

So, when some people try to simplify their life styles, and do it in a responsible manner, they should be commended. 

Others are just plain lazy, looking for any handout they can get so they don't have to do anything. 

A group that I have sympathy for, are the mentally ill.  Because they are not a threat to themselves or others, they do not qualify or choose treatment, whatever is the case.  These people are often homeless, even if family members try to help them.  They often live on the streets, and in the margins, but are still human beings, like us, who have an illness that is little understood and even less cared about. 

The whole Gist I am getting at is we need to remember our "right to Pursue happiness", but temper it with compassion and respect for all of us in this race together--the Human Race!

Steve Toomey
PAbusnut

Ed, Thanks for the info.  Definitely my mistake there.

Clifford, I meant what I said.  If you had put a new set of tires on it, I would have taken it.  It was gassed up, right?

Obviously, there are lots of different scenarios for people being homeless.  However, from the information given in the report, the only complaints were that they were on a flood plain and it violated zoning.  Since they did not bring it up, it did not seem sanitation, other hazards, crime, or neighbors were a problem.  If they could park on gov't land for $140/year, it would seem to cover the needs of several of those people. 

Quote from: pabusnut on September 23, 2010, 10:42:05 AM
. . . So, when some people try to simplify their life styles, and do it in a responsible manner, they should be commended. 

Others are just plain lazy, looking for any handout they can get so they don't have to do anything. . . .
Steve Toomey
PAbusnut

There in lies the problem - who is to determine the difference between responsible & lazy?

Concerning zoning & codes -
I have had the pleasure of working behind those who followed the zoning code & those that did not. While the code is far from perfect, it is usually better than nothing.

Concerning building a residence without indoor plumbing -
I don't know about you, but I know what an outdoor privy smells like, & I sure as hell don't want ANYONE in my neighborhood having one of those!  :o

Concerning the points brought up in the news article-
I'd be very surprised if there weren't plenty of other objections, those were the easiest for the reporter to understand.  ::)

I got the impression the campers wanted to park there, not just anywhere. . . . Like has been said, we don't have all the information. . . .

Quote from: luvrbus on September 23, 2010, 06:48:23 AM
If any of you guys have been in that area like we were this summer you would see why the city wants it gone 5 years ago that was a nice family parking area we always stayed there,we saw one guy dumping his toilet in the river (a 5 gal can) nasty people there now people.
Lots of people  can not afford money for campgrounds like the ones in Quartzsite but they are clean you never see that in Quartzsite from the people living there 6 months a year.
Moab is a nice area it shouldn't have that JMO.
I guess taking pride is not high on the list for those people living in that spot you can be poor with no money and still be neat and clean there is no law against that


good luck

I agree Moab is a neat little place, spent three days there waiting on a tire back in 2006.  What is JMO?  Just my opinion?

BCO

Quote from: kyle4501 on September 23, 2010, 12:14:20 PM

Concerning building a residence without indoor plumbing -
I don't know about you, but I know what an outdoor privy smells like, & I sure as hell don't want ANYONE in my neighborhood having one of those!

While visiting friends near Grand Rapids, MI, we were shown a new house that was just completed. It was built by an Amish family and they had a go-round with the county over installing plumbing and electrical. They were finally allowed to build without the plumbing or electrical. Of course, this will limit their market, should they decide to sell.  Jack

No offense to the skoolie crowds because they aren't alone yet whenever I tell someone I own a bus the very first question they ask is if it's a converted old school bus and the second is what does it look like?
Those pictures bother me because while they have a right to do as they please I don't want anyone confusing them with me (or us as a group I would hope) though right now I'm probably the poor cousin to some of them, especially according to my neighbor. I'm a workin' on it :D

I don't care what you have but at least try not to look like hillbillies or hippies! Have some pride in your rig.
(Crap...another apology required, no offense to hillbillies or hippies either, you know what I mean.)

Well, there is a simple solution to help these guys.  I would suggest that if you truly feel these are great guys who are doing no harm to the area, I'm sure if you contact the county authorities and let them know you have property where these guys can put their buses and live in them, I'm sure they would pass that info along to them.  Christy Hicks

I have been following this for a couple of days now.  My first bus was a schoolie, my second an old hound, and now I have an Eagle, it is my last bus.  I have lived and been a member of the bus community for awhile.  I live in Oklahoma which has the proud reputation of having 9 times the national average on trash picked up on the interstate highways. 

We have our fair share of people who litter or trash hogs.

I have actually met some folks who brag about "never having to use a dump station" and claim that side roads are okay or just fine.  We have picked up trash in Walmart lots after bus owners or RV Campers drove off and left it there. 

Some folks I know have a small Mom and Pop Cafe and they decided to expand their parking lot next door.  So they hauled in some gravel and leveled it all off.  Really nice, cost them dearly to set it all up.  It immediately started attracting traffic of all sorts.

Immediately people starting using it and of course, abusing it.  The one gallon jugs of urine started showing up, then there was the constant pile of trash and pet problems.  So not to be deterred they put out three 50 gallon drums clearly marked "trash."  Of course you know the rest, they did NOT get used.  Now in the end it had to be closed.  They hauled off the gravel, re-sodded the lot, put in some RR Ties to discourage traffic and it was closed.

Bus, truck, car it don't matter ... We are the enemy.  We do it to ourselves.

BCO

Don I could not have said it Better . The Few ruin it for the manny We need to police our own and Iam not basfull about saying something. When I lived in Cody the abuse that would go on in the walmart parking lot was shameful. All shapes and sizes would use that parking lot for setting up camp for a week or more and not think twice about leaving there a mess. anyway Iam off my Box

Now I'm scared, I don't remember you living in cody lol,  ;D ;D ::)

I've heard about some of the stuff that live in Cody, but not Mr. Andy ???. . . in fact, I heard that Cody was "full of it" ;) :D. . . hmmmmm.  Christy Hicks

I'm crushed

One thing that my dad told me when i was very young and that i have always remembered,...."You can work for a lifetime to build a good reputation but you can ruin it in a few seconds".

Quote from: Christyhicks on September 24, 2010, 03:59:37 AM
Well, there is a simple solution to help these guys.  I would suggest that if you truly feel these are great guys who are doing no harm to the area, I'm sure if you contact the county authorities and let them know you have property where these guys can put their buses and live in them, I'm sure they would pass that info along to them.  Christy Hicks

Christy,

Couldn't agree more!

I am always amazed by those who think people have the right to be a squatter on some land just because they want to, and then raise holy hell when they are told to get off.  "Just because you think its yours, don't mean it is"

Also I totally disagree with the use of the word "WE", its "THEY and this specific situation doesn't have anything to do directly with probably 99.9%of us, if at all.

It should be "How THEY get a bad reputation".

I have not met one single person who I would confuse with that situation from the Boards or at a rally.

I did suggest this be moved to the OT board, but alas, I was vetoed...... :P

just my opinion,

Cliff

The only argument in favor of the squatters is that they say they have been there for ten years.  That is a sort of implied consent that may work in their favor.

Quote from: Len Silva on September 24, 2010, 11:12:10 AM
The only argument in favor of the squatters is that they say they have been there for ten years.  That is a sort of implied consent that may work in their favor.

The only successful argument's for implied consent that I have seen, involved ingress/egress onto owned property.

Basically where one property owner used anther's to gain access to theres, I am not talking about being land locked either.

And then you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the actual owner knew you were using it.

Quote from: Len Silva on September 24, 2010, 11:12:10 AM
The only argument in favor of the squatters is that they say they have been there for ten years.  That is a sort of implied consent that may work in their favor.

Or maybe it began with a few responsible people who in turn attracted more squatters and maybe only recently has it gotten really bad or more complaints lodged. A large sudden influx of people who abuse the privilege, and it is a privilege indeed can ruin it for those who were there first and in the end the rest of us.

If their presence was acknowledged by the land owner & they were given permission by the owner - is a very different situation than if the land owner had no knowledge. In SC, if the land owner knows, you can't take it. It is a very complex set of rules to say the least - I'm in the middle of that now with family & neighbors over land that has been in the family since it was given to an ancestor to "settle the wilderness".

You can choose your actions, but you can't choose the consequences.

Some are homelessness by choice - some like the 'vagabond' lifestyle. I'm OK with that, but I'm not OK with the idea that they are entitled to things the rest have to pay for.

If someone chose to live that lifestyle, it is not the responsibility of mainstream society to subsidize their existence. That subsidy should be reserved for the helpless.
Hiding behind the claim of being "homeless" is an affront to those who are truly homeless by circumstances beyond their control or influence.

(Read Mr Sharkey's 30 years in a house truck  http://www.mrsharkey.com/busbarn/30years/page0 (http://www.mrsharkey.com/busbarn/30years/page0)  - it will provide insight into an alternative lifestyle that looks at mainstream society in a different way.)

Interesting how some make a game out of maximizing their benefits while minimizing their contributions. . . If we all did that, it wouldn't be long before there were no benefits to be had.

Looks like this post accomplished its goal. Got people talking about the issue.

Thanks for all the opinions and cordial discussion.

Grant

Kyle -

"Interesting how some make a game out of maximizing their benefits while minimizing their contributions. . . If we all did that, it wouldn't be long before there were no benefits to be had."

Which seems to be precisely the track the current crop of clowns in DC has got this country on. . . sadly.


Grant -

It was a family of characters in the ex-skoolie below that got ONP banned at one of the local Wal-Marts here in Fresno.  Squatted for about 10 days. . .

RJ;
How long did it take you to paint that. I like all the storage upstairs too,LOL

Dave

Quote from: RJ on September 24, 2010, 07:51:29 PM
Kyle -

Which seems to be precisely the track the current crop of clowns in DC has got this country on. . . sadly.


Grant -

It is so easy to blame it all on someone else, as American's we have grown fond of nailing the other guy for our problems and our ills, that way we are off the hook.





BCO

Don always comes through lol I love it Don a lot of truth written there