I aksed in the body of an dearlier post but thought I minght get a better repsonce in a new post. I want to buy a cheap generator. I only need to run one roof air and was considering a Honda 3000 as they run so very quiet when I came across this Honda clone called a KIPOR for 1/2 teh price. Money is always better if one can keep it in our own pockets. Anyone heard of these. They seem to be very close to the honda 3000
Grant
Grant, A fellow camper last month had one and he couldn't keep oil in it. Everytime he used it he was tearing it apart and resealing everything. It was quiet, no doubt about that, but I couldn't imagine having to go through what he did almost every few days of use. Hope this helps, Will
Lots of Kipors up here sitting waiting for parts, they were a hot seller for a little while cause they were cheap it's hard to find a dealer with anything good to say about them now, I looked at them before I got my honda 3000, I'm glad I got the honda, I tryed one 3000 Kipor for a weekend and I couldn't get it to run right and it was the dealers own demo model. Up here parts availability is the problem with Kipors.
I had a Honda 2500 that powered a medium sized roof AC, but just barely. I would start it running on the fan then switch to AC otherwise the startup load was too high which prevented operation.
Mainly the genset was for lights, the Micro and coffee maker and battery charger.
I now have a cheap Chinese 3500watt unit from Joe's (GI Joe). Haven't tried it with the AC's (two), but again mainly for the inverter (1000 watt Heart) and 50 amp battery charger. Most importantly to run the espresso maker!
It was $250, seems well made, runs nicely, OHV engine type, big tank with a gauge, dual 110 outlets and a 12V 10amp charge output. Once the engine was broken in, changed to synthetic oil, and keep fuel stabilizer in it. Works great.
My old Honda 2500 was about 5x more.....in the late 90's.
Best yet, the unit was actually purchased for an outdoor wedding but never used AND it fits perfectly on the right side next to the engine, batteries and electrical hookups. Planning to build a slideout for it sometime, too.
Overall, I'd say the import quality is much, much, better than in the past-- you never know, however. Maybe not the emissions output (mine is NOT CARB cert.), but that's another topic!
Grant
I have a Kipor 3000 inverter type electric start gennie. It doesnt get a lot of use, but it starts easy & runs quiet (not as quiet as a Honda). Only complaint is that its only 3kW. Next one will be 5kw or larger.
Mark
Hey Cody , how does your Honda 3000 handle your roof top?
Mark, Len's in Brandon has a couple left but he is selling a few a day so if I want one I have to let him know pretty quick. I can get a Honda for $2199 and the Kipor for $1295.00 which one would you go for after actually having a KIPOR
Grant
I have a Kipor 3500 generator...I've not put a huge number of hours on it yet, but so far it's been rock solid - very reliable, smooth and quiet. I chose it because it was good value for money, and the UK distributor happens to be located about 10 miles from where I live. Last month I had a major electrical problem with my house which resulted in me being without power for a week and the road being dug up to lay a new cable just for me. My Kipor basically ran my whole house for that week with no issues at all.
Jeremy
(Having said those nice things it'll probably throw a rod next time I start it now)
I also have a cheapo generator, in my case a Champion C46540 that I got from Kragens for only $199 ! Champion, unlike most (all?) other Chinese-made generators, has their own factory in the Socialist Workers' Paradise, complete with their own on-site QC, so their products are pretty good. Some of the other more generic Chinese Honda-clone engines (Chondas) are OK, some not so good. Champion also has a decent service and spare parts organization, and they do stand behind their products.
I made a slide-out mount for my gen using heavy-duty drawer pulls from an IBM rack-mount server. The gen compartment is between the right front wheel and door, and is open to the ground so any leaks or fumes are not a catastrophe; whenever the gen is running I have it pulled at least halfway out; overheating is never an issue. I connected a short piece of Tracpipe flexible stainless corrugated tubing between its muffler and a telescoping exhaust pipe that runs through to the far side. At some time I will lag the sides and top of the gen compartment with noise-muffling material to slightly reduce the sound - perhaps a sandwich of sheetrock and dense rubber or lead should work well. I also mounted the gen on extra neoprene squishy mounts to prevent vibration reaching the bus.
Ultimately I will use PV panels on the roof as my primary source of electricity to charge house batteries; the gen will only be for emergency backup and for powering my on-board 120V air compressor that I've tied into the bus's accessories air tank (for running air tools and inflating tires, without needing to start the engine). So far so good with my cheapo.
John
I haved two honda 3000's that I run in paralle, runs all electric on bus. Including electrice house style water heater. One will not run both a/c units and water heater. Love them. Very miserly on fuel.
Big John
Thanks guys, all input is really apprieciated. I did buy the Kipor but have not picked it up yet, the dealer said if I changed my mind by tomorrow morning he will refund my money, so keep the feed back coming.
Grant
My honda will run one of my rooftop units but not both, my rooftops units are 15K BTU carrier heat pumps, right now I've got the honda out at the skanee house powering it when I'm out there, it does a good job but I have to keep in mind that it is limited and I have to practice power management.
Quote from: Garymci5 on May 20, 2010, 12:15:25 PM
I now have a cheap Chinese 3500watt unit from Joe's (GI Joe). ... Planning to build a slideout for it sometime, too.
and
Quote from: Iceni John on May 20, 2010, 01:12:48 PM
I also have a cheapo generator, in my case a Champion C46540 that I got from Kragens ...
I made a slide-out mount for my gen using heavy-duty drawer pulls from an IBM rack-mount server. The gen compartment is between the right front wheel and door, and is open to the ground so any leaks or fumes are not a catastrophe; .... I connected a short piece of Tracpipe flexible stainless corrugated tubing between its muffler and a telescoping exhaust pipe that runs through to the far side. At some time I will lag the sides and top of the gen compartment with noise-muffling material to slightly reduce the sound ...
Uh, guys, it is illegal and incredibly dangerous to install or mount in any way a stand-alone "contractor" or skid-mount type of generator in an RV. These things are designed and built to be run outdoors, away from living quarters, on a temporary basis.
I have no problem with people wanting to use these to save a few bucks (so long as they don't park anywhere near me ;) ). But you need to carry them safely, in a well-ventilated compartment sealed off from the rest of the coach, and then you need to drag them outside to use them. Preferably no closer than 15' away.
We don't want to be reading about your untimely demise in the paper.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
For my money, the Kipor is the way to go.....I just cant park beside Sean ;).
As $$ permit, I sure would like to go to a permanent liquid-cooled diesel gennie with remote start. And I may have the opportunity to do that before next winter.
I had a 6500w 'contractor' generator in my former workshop for emergency power...cause we are rural and you know how lazy those hydro guys are... ;D The new gennie for the new shop may very well end up in Papabus and the Kipor can stay home....
Regards.
Mark
Sean,
What do you have for a genset on that beast of yours?
Granted, it's potentially UNSAFE to run a contractor type genset in an enclosed area. Guilty as charged, but i'm careful and take into consideration all aspects to maintain safety. My Eagle had a 15KW Kubota 4cyl and was $12k new....I paid less than that for the coach, however.
Didn't know it was ILLEGAL. Is this true for all states? Where is there add'l info on this topic?
Can't tell you how much time I've spent over the years looking at your incredible coach! Anyone that hasn't probably shouldn't-- it can lead to massive bus-envy ;D
Illegal? I'd have to see that one. Sean, your accuracy rate has been slipping somewhat lately but still close to 60%, I realize that you do claim to have the complete information on any subject, but as you know I do check your sources from time to time and find confusion now and then, you have been wrong now and then lol, show me the carfax lol.
I agree with the safety factor on contractor models..every year or so we have a couple die by using one in a attached garage...it seeps in under door (deadly Gases) ...then we have the ones that have them in the house trailer with them. !!!Do what you need but stay alive!!!Lots of good used RV gen sets out there..just bought a 7.5 for 1500$ with 34 hrs on it..
Bob, what killed that couple was not the generator but the fumes from improperly venting the fumes, all generators can be dangerous, what is deadly is how the exhaust is directed or misdirected, you can properly vent most any generator, this arguement is frustrating from the standpoint that only a particular model or type is acceptable, it's like the noise level, all generators start loud, what quiets a generator down is the application of soundproofing material. Many things can be used to properly safeguard from the fumes, even a properly vented generator can kill the couple next door, the idea for venting up and above the unit is normally concidered safer than the usual exhaust out the side. According to both primary generator suppliers listed here in the magazine, the regulations mandate the level of fumes and the directing or dispersal of the fumes not the company or style of generator, even a contractor style generator can meet the regulations with the application of a containment system for directing and exhausting the fumes.
Why would a "proper" RV-type water-cooled gasoline- or LPG-fueled generator be safer than a portable gasoline- or LPG-fueled generator? My exhaust runs to the far side, no different than expensive built-in generators' exhausts, so no difference there. My portable generator is less likely to overheat than one built inside a bus, sitting deep inside its sealed-off compartment; mine has plenty of cooling air, probably far more cooling than a water-cooled internal generator. If the direction of the exhaust is an issue, I can run a vertical extension just as easily as someone with a built-in gen. If (heaven forbid) my gen catches fire it is less likely to burn the whole bus down because its mostly outside, compared to one buried deep inside the bus's bowels. I had thought about wiring a remote kill switch inside my bus, so I can shut down the gen without getting near it - maybe that will be my next project this weekend.
Yes, I know that diesel is an intrinsically safer fuel than gasoline or LPG, but I have neither the money nor the space for such a generator.
Sean, I understand your concern. However, I do not have the same financial resources as some others on this forum, and I have to use the least-expensive option, otherwise I simply won't get anything done at all. Some folk spend far more on their generators than I spent on my entire bus! I have considered the risks, and am prepared to live with them. I have made a ventilated compartment for the gasoline can, entirely separate from any other enclosed space, and absolutely nothing will be stored in sealed interior storage at all - everything that could potentially leak, drip or vent will be in well-ventilated open-floored areas. How many other busnuts here have only open-floored spaces for their batteries and anything else that can leak? My bus may end up being actually safer than some other higher-dollar conversions out there.
John, getting poorer but wiser each day
Both put out power...and properly vented and operated...will do the job...the point being be careful...most RV designated gen sets have some of the safety devices as standard equip..I have had the same thoughts you have had about contractor gen sets...But I have been lucky 4 times to find a good used RV gen set under 1600$ carbonmonoxide sensors are cheap insurance. I'm not of the rich class..I pinch pennies and build a lot of my own systems..can't afford to buy the 12000$ gen sets.
I and Paul Elbisser just bought two used 7.5kw Kabota/Onan Cummins diesel gens. They are 3 phase that I am wiring to 120 single phase. (Just have to switch wires)
Paul decided he doesn't want to use his and will sell it. You are looking a cool grand. It only has 1200 hours on it. In my eyes, that's a steal.
Contact him if you are interested.
Chaz
Sean is right - READ THE MANUAL - it will say it right there - no need to make Sean prove it - FWIW
While there is nothing more satisfying then a smooth running Diesel generator purring away for hours and hours on end making your portable power pole, there is also nothing more frustrating than to have a noisy, gasoline powered el cheapo generator that overheats, konks out at the wrong time (is there ever a right time?), putting up with fumeous gasoline and the highly toxic exhaust fumes, finicky carbureators, fouling spark plugs, dealing with proper ventilation of an air cooled engine (can you tell I detest gasoline powered anything?). I think the genset is the number one item after the bus itself that you should not scrimp on. A well made Diesel genset will give you years of faithful service with nothing more then oil and filter changes (once again I mention my truck driver friend with 23,000 hours on his Diesel genset [8kw Powertech with 3 cylinder Kubota] when he sold his truck). Good Luck, TomC
I bought the Yamaha 3K inverter model and love it. Nice and quiet, and in a pinch, feeding a Trace 4024, will run two roof airs for awhile, with an amp or 3 bleeding from the battery bank.
My dealer, friend of a friend, 40 years in building up a motorcycle/small engines dealership, sold both the Honda and the Yamaha lines.
He was ambivalent about brand loyalty, no difference in come backs, I got the Yamaha, because there was an incentive on.
He sold the dealership, and two years later, it was gone. As the story goes, the new owner found a mistress in cocaine...
Anyway, include the quiet Yamaha in your thoughts about quiet Hondas.
happy coaching!
buswarrior
My contention is not with the reliability of a diesel generator, but when a factory produced manual is given the power and authority of law I have a problem with that. I can find no law that mandates the use of a particular generator, if it in fact exists, show me where it lists the only generators that are legal for use. I find several codes that clearly state how exhaust is to be handled and vented but nothing that lists one generator as being illegal and another one as being legal, only the requirements for proper venting and exhaust. Clearly some generators are better suited for a particular job but that doesn't make other types illegal if properly installed. I'm not sure a generator that costs several thousand dollars can be concidered as a cheapo either, I do realize some here on the board are fantastically wealthy and can write the massive checks needed to buy the 15K units or 20K units but those of us that have to settle for the ones that only cost a few thousand can in fact operate and install them safely and in accordance with proper procedures and meet code.
I'd be pretty sure that on a work site, that a government labor/safety type inspector would be writing tickets if a contractor generator not intended for the purpose was being operated enclosed.
Not in one of those "business friendly" jurisdictions, I mean in one of those other ones that intend for all folks to live long and prosper.
The old "endangering the health and safety of a worker" would be slapped on.
Best practices, standard of care, manufacturer's recommendations, all become the legalese used to convict?
happy coaching!
buswarrior
I have to ask what is a contractors generator I see Dick sells standby,contractors and RV generators and they are the same unit.
Guess I am in trouble I have a marine generator bring on the water who needs highways lol .
I am probably off base here but people buy what they can afford and they find a way to make it work and not put their self or family in danger so the hats off to you guys.
good luck
The key here is the term 'intended use', the intended use of a generator is to produce electricity, they all produce electricity in simular ways, the difference being how the exhaust is vented and how the unit is enclosed, enclosing a unit can be safely done as long as proper air movement is provided to cool the unit, most contactor generators rely on a simple bolt on muffler simular to what you would find on a lawn mower, it bolts on and can be unbolted and several companies make exhaust pipes with mufflers that direct the exhaust out of the area the same way an "rv" generator does, many of the factory provided generators are in reality only modified generators that in other lives perform other functions. The codes are set up to provide safe operation of a generator based on the toxicity of the fumes, if those fumes are dispelled safely and in accordance with code the generator becomes in compliance with the code regardless of the style. I still agree that some generators are better suited than others but with proper attention paid to the installation and exhaust requirements most generators can be in compliance.
Page 6
Do not operate within 3 feet (0.9 meter) of any walls.
Do not operate in any enclosure
Page 7
Keep the generator at least 3 feet (1 meter) away from buildings
and other equipment during operation.
Do not enclose the generator in any structure.
Keep flammable materials away from the generator.
Page 9
* Never run the generator in a closed, or even partly closed area where people may be present.
Page 25
To prevent a possible fire, keep the generator at least 3 feet (1 meter)
away from building walls and other equipment during operation. Do
not place flammable objects close to the engine
Page 27
Operate the generator at least 3 feet (1 meter) away from buildings
and other equipment
Page 79
Do not operate the generator without the wheel kit installed. The
wheel kit provides an air space between the ground and the generator
air intake.
"How many times does it need to be said/printed ?"
http://www.poweredgenerators.com/honda/manuals/31Z12602.pdf (http://www.poweredgenerators.com/honda/manuals/31Z12602.pdf)
I have a 7.5k gas Kohler now. My last bus came with a 3.5 Generac that developed a problem. I got a 4k Onan on Craigslist for $200. That was an exceptional deal, but I know I have seen them several times for under $500.
Niles, can you tell me what state that law is quoted from? Or is it just from the factory produced operating manual, what we're talking about is legal vs illegal, that requires legislative action to produce a law that is signed into effect, it doesn't fit the criteria of administrative law either, when an action is said to be illegal then it has to carry the weight of law which this clearly doesn't. A search of the MCL (michigan compliled laws) doesn't produce any thing that fits the description offered however I can find several references to proper installation and regulations in regards to fumes. The statement made was that contractor generators and skid mounted generators were illegal for RV usage, that is the statement in contention.
I have a Honda 5000, runs both 1350 roof tops, I would never run my gen while the bus was in the house, just my way I guess ;D ;D
Don't remove the wheels Van
good luck
Wise move van, running the generator while the bus is inside the house is not good lol. ( how tall are your house ceilings or is that your great room lol) hmmmmmmmm detriot diesel and white carpeting lol
Too late, the wheels are off ;D Oh! the shame of it all! :o
Several have taken me to task on the assertion that permanently installing a "contractor" generator is illegal.
I will refer you to the National Electrical Code, which is law in all 50 states, 2008 edition (most current), wherein you will find the following:
"551.32 Other Sources. Other sources of ac power, such as inverters, motor generators, or engine generators, shall be listed for use in recreational vehicles and shall be installed in accordance with the terms of the listing."
(underline emphasis mine). If you look in the manuals, tags, or labels affixed to such contractor generators you will find the listing number, either from Underwriters Laboratories (UL) or other recognized listing agencies, and the number will correlate to a specific listing or listings for specific uses. You will NOT find permanent "recreational vehicle" installation in the listings for these generators, which makes using them a clear and indisputable violation of section 551.32 of the NEC. That makes it ILLEGAL in all 50 states.
Now, whether any state will actually cite you for this is another matter entirely. Enforcement is a completely different matter from legality. However, let your generator do some damage to anyone with a brain and an attorney, and I can assure you that the illegality of your installation will become a matter of "fact" (as such word is understood in legal circles) before you can so much as look that up in a legal dictionary.
None of which is really relevant to my main point, which is that such usage is also dangerous. These generators are made for temporary use outdoors in open air, not enclosed in a vehicle.
And Niles is quite correct: using a generator or any other UL-listed appliance in contravention of the installation instructions of the manufacturer violates the listing and makes the usage unlawful. Period. The same logic applies, for example, to using a heat gun (a UL-listed device) to dry your hair -- no matter how much a heat gun looks like a hair dryer, that's not a listed use and it is a violation of the listing to use it that way. I would bet no one on this board would do such a thing, yet here you are arguing that these listing requirements don't apply to you "so long as you use common sense." I can assure you, the law provides no such "common sense" exemption
Lastly, to Dan: if you are going to keep repeating the "only 60% correct" rubric, I am going to ask you to prove it. Pick 100 of my posts at random, and show me that I was in error in 40 of them, and I will let you continue to say this without challenge. Otherwise, I would respectfully ask you to refrain from what I now consider to be a personal attack (and will plead same with the moderators) on my reputation here.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Cody, Van doesn't need a DD on his carpet Don Fairchild marked his territory lol if you ever need carpet cleaned Van can do it in hurry when his wife is on the way home.
good luck
Quote from: cody on May 20, 2010, 09:22:04 PM
... can you tell me what state that law is quoted from? ... A search of the MCL (michigan compliled laws) doesn't produce any thing that fits the description offered
Michigan code is governed by their Department of Energy, Labor & Economic Growth in the 2008 ELECTRICAL CODE RULES, Part 8, which reads in part:
"
Rule 801 National electrical code; adoptions by reference; inspection; purchase. (1) The standards contained in the national electrical code, 2008 edition, except sections 501.30B, 502.30B, 503.30B, 505.25B, 506.25B, 547.1 to 547.10, and Annex H, as published by the national fire protection association (NFPA), shall govern the installation, replacement, alteration, relocation, and use of electrical systems or material. With the exceptions noted, the national electrical code is adopted in these rules by reference."
So, yes, it is law in Michigan. However, since the DoEL&EG has little or no enforcement capability in RV construction, concentrating instead on fixed structures, I would guess that there is no enforcement of section 551, even though that is not one of the sections explicitly excluded in the Michigan code adoption.
Hope that clears it up for you.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean I truly apologize to you for doubting your absolute authority in all matters but unfortunately locating errors in your postings is not difficult and has been done by others, the part you fail to address is the NEC listings are not fully inclusive and that fact is listed in the manual, I also have the manual, the manual is not the bible as most engineers decree but often a guideline, for the manual to be all inclusive would create a book that only an attorney could love, my engineering degree is posted on the wall in my office as I'm sure yours is too, many here carry the degree of engineer tho many haven't attained the certification to actually be listed as such, another factor are the many kinds of engineering degrees available. I know how difficult it can be to be accepted as a highly respected individual as you are and we acknoledge that fact, however no one expects perfection in all areas and that is sometimes a difficult pill to swallow. If the manual were all inclusive, Dick Wright would be out of business as would many others, if you check further into the manual you'll find the rational danger listed by toxicity. Read further my friend and it'll clear up the confusion.
The post of Niles is copied from the OSHA hand book on generators used by contractors by all manufactures.
good luck
I don't mean to impune anyones reputation, as we all know reputations are performance based and subject to adjustment as performances are enhanced or otherwise enterpreted, here on the board it's very difficult to accurately determine the actual performance level of any ones expertise based on their own renditions so careful research is needed to determine the accuracy of a statement, sometimes those statements are viewed in different ways by different people, the very fact that a person is listed with a PE registry number speaks volumes about their credibility, in my case I had a different career in motion so didn't follow thru with the PE registry after attaining the degree's. In regards to the NEC, one section leads to another section and sometimes it takes several sections to acurately interpret the statement made in the first section as many sections are deliberately left vague so that they can be further defined by another section, for that reason fully inclusive statements are not only hard to find but almost impossible to include.
One interesting question would be my honda 3000 inverter generator, it is listed with an available wheel kit, that would indicate portability, it also has an available remote start, a high capacity fuel tank which can be added and permanently installed for a longer run time, it also comes with an onboard mounted muffler but has a remote muffler/tailpipe kit available, this list of features would place it in several catagories from contractor use to permanently installed use, this creates confusion as to which code takes priority in the application of the unit, with the available components it can wear many hats, this is the case with many generators, the usage is not clearly defined and as such cannot be closely regulated by statute as statutes differ with each application.
Quote from: Sean on May 20, 2010, 09:34:50 PM
These generators are made for temporary use outdoors in open air, not enclosed in a vehicle.
I presently use my generator for about 20 minutes a month, or less, and as I have stated it is always in the open air when used. When I get my PV panels my generator usage will then drop to essentially zero.
What is the greater risk of fire or malfunction - my generator used for about 4 hours per year, or others' generators used for more hours than that each day? If I planned on using a generator as my primary means of producing electricity (as most folk here do), I would scrimp and save to buy a "proper" RV generator. I prefer to put my money instead into a PV system that will then produce all the power I need for free for as long as I ever have my bus.
Let's not all get our undergarments in a torsionally-dislocated state.
John
Luvr - What I quoted from is in a link at the bottom of my post - You are correct that OSHA as well as other agencies REQUIRE these types of disclosures to PROTECT the public - Whether one chooses to heed the warning is up to them - If you choose not to heed the warning and some one was to be injured or killed, beyond the Civil liabilities, you may be charged with any of a multitiude of criminal charges up to and including manslaughter. Although Cody would like a specific codification dealing with contractor/portable generators for every state in the union - That is not the case as it is a matter of "Common Law" - If you require further explanation any member of the Bar can be of help as it is taught in Lawyer 101 - FWIW
Quote from: Iceni John on May 20, 2010, 10:48:56 PM
What is the greater risk of fire or malfunction - my generator used for about 4 hours per year, or others' generators used for more hours than that each day?
Sorry, John, but my answer here is that yours is the more risky usage, compared to a properly rated and installed generator.
Quote
... I prefer to put my money instead into a PV system that will then produce all the power I need for free for as long as I ever have my bus.
Hmm. I'd like to see the details of such a system.
Lets assume you managed to completely cover the roof of your rig (call it 300 square feet) with the most efficient panels available today -- about 50 watt-hours per square foot (depending on location and insolation). You'd get about 15 kWh per day of power -- just enough to run a single air conditioner. On a temperate day, you'd only need perhaps a third of this power to run most of the rest of your systems.
BTW, 300 square feet of these panels will cost you around $22,000 today.
In more practical terms, you will be lucky to get 100% of your non-A/C needs met with a more conventional PV system.
I applaud you for wanting to use more renewable energy. But you will not likely eliminate completely your need for a generator. Neither will this save you money -- as I have written here many times, and also in a recent magazine column, PV power has its place in this community for a variety of reasons, but long-term cost savings is not one of them. In fact, it takes anywhere from 15-30 years to "break even" on a solar installation, and many never do. So, frankly, from a safety standpoint as well as cost-effectiveness of power produced, you will be better off putting that money into a proper generator installation.
Quote
Let's not all get our undergarments in a torsionally-dislocated state.
John, I don't have my knickers in a twist, nor do I have any investment in how you do your conversion (so long as you're not parked next to me, as previously noted). However, many less experienced folks follow along on these threads, and they deserve to hear what the safety (and legal) risks are with doing these things. If three people roll out in a thread like this and say "I did xyz," even if xyz is unlawful and unsafe, and no one challenges that, then those readers might get the mistaken and very dangerous impression that xyz is the right way to do things.
So I will repeat it again for the benefit of our audience in Internet-land. Using a generator made only for outdoor use inside of an RV compartment is DANGEROUS and also UNLAWFUL. Now if you choose to ignore this advice, I will not be the one to stop you. But do not expect me to remain silent when anyone advances the argument that this practice is either safe or legal.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Sean, I'll leave this thread with a deep bow to your infallability and accept your 100% accuracy rate as new 'common' law, several people said your full of poo on this topic including the provider of generators that advertises right here in the magazine, an attorney that I contacted this morning, Mark Wisti says your wrong, however, as usual, you right as you always are, I must caution you tho the inability to ever be proven to be in error sometimes leads to crucifiction. For the others here on the board, I'd like to mention just one thing, don't always believe what you read on the internet, it could possibly be wrong, always double check the information and even if it's proclaimed to be code, find the code and read it for yourself, it is possible that it was misquoted or the application misunderstood, remember there are several engineers on the board and they don't always agree, tho they may have part of the information correct that doesn't mean they have it all correct. With that, I admit defeat and I apologize for again being wrong.
As usual, I must side with Sean on this one.
I have no doubt that I could properly and safely modify a contractor generator for RV use. That would include remote fuel tank, extended exhaust, auxiliary cooling and a proper compartment. It would not be listed, therefore not legal, but I would be comfortable with it.
That said, I would never suggest to someone else that they do the same thing.
One has only to note some of the questions posed on this board to scare the crap out of you. My response (unspoken) is that this person should never hold a screwdriver, much less a multimeter.
The vast majority of busnuts here are very knowledgeable and more than capable of doing things safely, but when someone of unknown capabilities poses the question "Do you guys think it's OK to do this somewhat unsafe thing" (what ever it is), the answer has to be no.
An interesting side note to the discussion just reared it's ugly head, Chris Morrison of American Honda (product and develpoment division) (Alphoraph Ga) has just stated by phone that honda is adding a slide out option for their inverter series generators along with the new remote starts and extended exhaust systems, I asked him if he was aware that the NEC code makes the inverter series illegal for RV usage, he said that the new product features were designed to place the units in compliance with the regulations and attained variance status and the new code book will list the adjusted status, so Sean was historically correct but using outdated information, he further stated that the inverter series has never been associated with the contractor series and the designation never clearly defined by code and the new additons to the product line will more clearly define their role in the industry. Just to be fair to Sean, as he knows the code book is not published every year, however, new product development is an ongoing process and UL is continually accessing new developments as they come out and for those that pass the muster a variance is listed for that product then noted with the next printing, too often we assume that the code is up to date when it may accually be 2 years old, the inverter series of generators were a new product when the last book was produced so many things were tested and listed as given variences pending the next printing so as I said, in fairness to Sean the 2008 book he quotes while the current edition doesn't contain the new variences, the key is to not take the book as gospel but as a guideline and if further investigation is warrented, look for the variances.
Dan,
You seem unclear on how the code works. Allow me to straighten you out.
The NEC does not "list" anything. Neither does it contain or provide "variances."
Listing is completely up to the manufacturer and involves the manufacturer submitting their product to a listing agency (NOT the NFPA) such as UL, CSA, or others, and asking for it to be tested to a specific standard and listed accordingly.
Honda (and anyone else) is absolutely free to submit their generator products for listing to the RV standard, and some of their units are listed that way. But I will note that no one was talking about a Honda in this thread, but rather a Kipor, and the fact remains that the vast majority of contractor-type generators are NOT so listed. And I did make clear in each of my posts that contractor generators not so listed are illegal -- I never said that if you found a contractor type generator which ALSO carried an RV listing that it would be illegal or unsafe to use.
And I don't care how many generator salesmen told you this is balderdash -- they have axes to grind. If the product manual does not have RV installation instructions, then the unit is not legal to use, because it can not be "installed in accordance with the terms of the listing" as required by code.
We seem to go around and around on these code issues. If you want to ignore the code, again, I will not be the one to stop you. But please don't come here and tell others that the code does not exist, does not have to be followed, is obsolete, or any of a number of other excuses (and that's what they are) for you to do whatever you please. Your advice may well get someone killed.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: Sean on May 21, 2010, 12:13:00 AM
BTW, 300 square feet of these panels will cost you around $22,000 today.
I applaud you for wanting to use more renewable energy. But you will not likely eliminate completely your need for a generator. Neither will this save you money -- as I have written here many times, and also in a recent magazine column, PV power has its place in this community for a variety of reasons, but long-term cost savings is not one of them. In fact, it takes anywhere from 15-30 years to "break even" on a solar installation, and many never do. So, frankly, from a safety standpoint as well as cost-effectiveness of power produced, you will be better off putting that money into a proper generator installation.
Did I say I would be covering my entire roof? No, I plan on using about 1000W of panels, which at $3 to $5 per watt is far less than $22,000. Add in two charge controllers (I will split the entire PV system into two separate halfs, each charging four golfcart batteries; this way I still have half my system working if something goes wrong) and their associated cabling, and I'm still way below your notional figure.
You assume I will be using roof-mounted AC. Again, no. Who says I will be parked where I need that much cooling? I have absolutely no intention of being anywhere so hot/humid that I need that amount of artificial cooling.
My electrical needs will be very modest compared with the profligate use of electricity that is endemic in this country. I used to live in a small (700 sq.ft) house that had only 20A main service, and we managed just fine! I neither need nor want power-hungry appliances for every imaginable purpose. With some creative thinking and a willingness to accept a more-sustainable lifestyle there is no reason I cannot live well with less. For example, a 6 cu.ft. chest freezer used as a refrigerator (using a home-brewing external thermostat) typically runs for only 90 seconds per hour, well within the ability of a modest PV system. (I assume this would also be illegal in a bus, because its UL listing doesn't specify such use! Quel horreur.)
From a safety standpoint I do not see how a generator can be considered safer. What is safer than a few PV panels?
You mention the NEC. Remember, this is a code that allows wire nuts !!!!! Enough said.
I am very strongly aware that we are rapidly approaching the end of what history will probably show as being the longest period of unsustainability in human existance. Just this one country alone is responsible for consuming about one fifth of this entire planet's natural resources and energy. Is it any wonder we are experiencing the current problems that are insidiously permeating our entire society? Quite simply, we cannot continue living a lifestyle that so many think is their birthright. Whether we prepare for change now, or have it thrust upon us later, it is coming, and the longer we procrastinate and fiddle while Washington burns the worse it will be. As is said, we ain't seen nothin' yet. J.H.Kunstler says we are sleepwalking into the future, and we'd better do what we can now to make that future as tolerable as possible. Reducing our energy-dependency is just one of many radical changes that need to happen, whether we like it or not. Running a generator for many hours a day is simply not viable or even ethically sound for me.
I'll be curious to know the typical carbon footprint of an average bus conversion, once one factors in all the indirect costs of its construction and use. My goal is to reduce my overall environmental impact as far as my modest finances and DIY abilities allow. I simply do not have the luxury of seemingly-unlimited funds and resources to complete my dream, so therefore I must do what I want as expeditiously as possible, otherwise it won't get done at all.
John
Quote from: busshawg on May 20, 2010, 12:01:52 PM
I aksed in the body of an dearlier post but thought I minght get a better repsonce in a new post. I want to buy a cheap generator. I only need to run one roof air and was considering a Honda 3000 as they run so very quiet when I came across this Honda clone called a KIPOR for 1/2 teh price. Money is always better if one can keep it in our own pockets. Anyone heard of these. They seem to be very close to the honda 3000
Grant
You ever hear of anyone getting fired because they bought the Honda . . ?
Quote from Sean: "And I don't care how many generator salesmen told you this is balderdash -- they have axes to grind."
I have to take exception to that, Sean. "Axe to grind'" implies a malicious intend. If you used something more like, "They have a horse in the race," it would be okay though.
John,
So it would appear that you want to use a contractor-type generator pretty much in the manner it was designed. The only variation is installation on a slide rather than several feet away on the ground. Still, I would say, since good RV units can be had cheaply if one is patient, be patient and ultimately you will have something that you will be happier with. If you must use a Kipor for now, why bother to install it. Just put it on the ground until you find one worth installing at a price you like.
Speaking of unapproved and potentially dangerous items tucked in our buses, what about Wabasto's or the like? Are they approved for installation in an RV?
Quote from: Lin on May 21, 2010, 10:45:52 AM
...
I have to take exception to that, Sean. "Axe to grind'" implies a malicious intend.
Actually, one meaning of the term is just a "hidden agenda."
The term has its origins in a story involving Benjamin Franklin and a grindstone. The man with an axe to grind didn't want to buy the grindstone -- he had an ulterior motive. No malice was involved.
It is only in later times that the expression also picked up a meaning involving a resentment. But that's an alternative meaning and not the only one.
I tend to use the expression in its original meaning. One will generally not get full disclosure from a salesman because he has a hidden agenda, like the man with "an axe to grind" who asked Franklin to demonstrate his grindstone.
FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Quote from: Iceni John on May 21, 2010, 09:16:24 AM
Did I say I would be covering my entire roof?
Just to be clear, John, I did not say you would. I merely was providing a "best case" for how much power can be derived from solar. The intent was to show that even in such a best case, most people will still need a generator.
You may well be able to get along without one, however, that will put you among a very small minority of users. Remember, many people are following this discussion, and few are willing to go to the lengths you have outlined to keep their usage down to your stated 3kWh per day.
And if you are going to have a generator at all, it should be installed safely, which was my original point.
FWIW.
-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com)
Good grief I been to Algodones Mex to the dentist for 2 caps a 400 mile round trip and you guys are still in a watering contest on this topic ?.
good luck
Sean, rather than continue to try to enlighten you I'll just ask you why there is no record of you in the PE Registry? You do know what that is don't you, pm me if you have questions. Google UL variances to NEC codes and you'll find page after page of the non existant variances listed, this alone proves the availability of changes to the codes http://books.google.com/books?id=3rPS-jVhV4wC&pg=PT21&lpg=PT21&dq=ul+variance+to+NEC+codes&source=bl&ots=YgC5DwxAFB&sig=ahDXWytXG-Cw2fRjmE2wpkvctnw&hl=en&ei=OBb3S8TxPMOC8gbSgbW0Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=3rPS-jVhV4wC&pg=PT21&lpg=PT21&dq=ul+variance+to+NEC+codes&source=bl&ots=YgC5DwxAFB&sig=ahDXWytXG-Cw2fRjmE2wpkvctnw&hl=en&ei=OBb3S8TxPMOC8gbSgbW0Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CDYQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Quote from: Kenny on May 21, 2010, 12:09:04 PM
Speaking of unapproved and potentially dangerous items tucked in our buses, what about Wabasto's or the like? Are they approved for installation in an RV?
yes
I'm afraid to ask about using the nuclear unit I bought from a Korean that came through who was down on his luck. I get worried about Chinese and Korean built stuff. I guess I'll throw these green rods in the tubes that he showed me and see what happens. :D Don't worry. He sold me some rubber gloves and uv sunglasses also so I should be safe.
Be careful of the dialithium crystals, they can be tricky lol.
Cody, I think you are way off the mark here. I am very sure that Sean is aware that the NEC can be and often is superseded by local authority. The vast majority of variances by local authority are stricter than the code requires. The NEC is only a guide but is usually adopted by the authority rather than write a whole set of rules on their own. Of course the next town over might well write rules that conflict with them.
When ever a question comes up here, Sean has always provided the best advice he could and usually cites chapter and verse of how he came to that conclusion. In the end, he usually says that it's your bus, do what you want.
I just don't understand the animosity toward a guy who only wants to help and has considerable knowledge and the communication skills to do so.
There have been several significant and knowledgeable contributors here who finally just said to hell with it. It's not worth the aggravation. Their contributions are sorely missed. I have learned a lot from Sean and I already knew damn near everything about anything!
Sean, my advice to you FWIW is to continue posting as you have but don't waste your time and energy defending your posts. They stand very well on their own.
Len your post is the very reason for my post, the NEC is in fact not law and not only can be adjusted thru variances but often is, I'm extremely well versed in it also, my point is simply that it does not carry the weight of law, it is a reference to a set of codes that are used as guidelines and often are modified. I would almost be willing to bet I can match degree for degree with sean plus add to the pile so I'm not just 'blowing smoke'. Seans contention that the NEC carries the weight of law is off the mark as you put it, I've dealt with UL and watched their testing, I've seen the variances requested and seen them issued, to say they don't exist is not true, my brother designs and builds hydroelectric power plants and not only carrys design certification he is one of the leading engineers in hydrodynamics in the nation, he carrys with him 30 years of PE certification, thats proffessional engineer certification, it means he can sign and certify a process, he has a seal issued to him for his application, hydrodynamics is his particular discipline but he is certified in several others, at present he is designing the power plant that Hibbing Minnisota will be building in a few years, engineering disciplines run rampant in this family so, yes, we are fairly well versed in how they are applied, I was the black sheep that decided to wade into the state sesspool but I first got the required degrees that my father mandated lol, then added what I could squeeze out of the state coffers thru my employment. I hold no grudge, nor have an 'ax to grind' just wish to correct information that is in error. Of particular interest to sean is that my brother went to stanford before finishing at MIT, I went slumming and delt with michigan tech but I think jerry liebler will agree that tech is an ok school too. Stanford is a good school to get the basics started.
We can argue the legality of the NEC till the cows come home and neither side will budge. Points have been made for and against using approved/unapproved generators in your conversion. Understand you can do what you want and will be wholly responsible for any repercussions.
We are now straying into attack/counterattack which serves no one on the board. A cooling down period has been initiated. This thread may be unlocked at some point in the future.
Frank