Starter and batteries

[jjrbus]

Would a malfunctioning starter cause battery problems???  Very general question, but not sure how to word it?

[Busted Knuckle]

Well yes it could. Very complex and difficult situation, kinda hard too explain!   BK 

[JackConrad]

Would a malfunctioning starter cause battery problems???  Very general question, but not sure how to word it?

Jim,
   Does this mean you still have a starting problem?  Only thing I can think of for a starter problem to affect a battery, in some way it would have to take the charge out of the battery at a faster than normal rate or slowly drain the battery over time. Not sure how either of these would happen.  Jack

[Sojourner]

Would a malfunctioning starter cause battery problems???  Very general question, but not sure how to word it?

Funny that you said it now.....I was thinking about that a few hours ago before you posted this one.

Yes...they can make anyone to think it is battery problem.

That why all good automotive technicians use volt & ohm meter in both analog & digital version. No guessing game.

Only other problem in electrical diagnostic is off & on shorting...such as back in1968, a brand new Chevrolet Caprice stop light & dash light go out whenever his wife drive the car. After many times back to dealer's mechanics that had their hands on it to try to correct the problem but no change. After my boss turn this problem to me, it took me about more six time of service call before I found the culprit. The result was when she (not him) was making a right turn....it blowed the fuse. I remove the driver's OEM floor carpet, locate the "bus or flat terminal belt" and carefully pushes down along near where her heel touches while she applies the brake pedal. Bingo! It shorts! So I carefully lift the "belt" off the OEM painted floor that had some body sealant spots. Looking under the "belt", I found a pin hole into that circuit and trace that to the floor. Using the Ohm meter to locate that sharp ground spot. Bingo! A small metal filing chip under heavy coat of paint. Had to knock off and button back up. Never any more problems since. That is just one of many, many cases in life time.  

BTW...about old battery and new replacement. What is CCA (cold cranking ampere) you have?  Many group 31 come in difference CCA. Try to get at least 900 + CCA.

Keep us posted.

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry

[Dallas]

Jim,

I'm not certain that this is relevant or not, but it could be.

A few weeks ago working on the C3 from beyond the gates of Hades, We had a problem with starting. The batteries were New Napa 1400 CCA batteries, (May '08), The starter was a new rebuilt, from some unknown facility in the backwoods of oHIo.
I could gently charge the batteries @ 10-20A for about 3 days, hit the starter, and they would immediately go flat... bad enough that in order to bring them back up to 24V reading on an analog VOM I would have to let them sit for about 2 hours.
Bummer, as I couldn't figure out what was causing the problems and I didn't want to believe the batteries or starter was at fault.
This went on for about a week and I finally decided to swap the starter out one from a 6V92.. The engine cranked about 3 times and on the 4th try, SOS. HMMMMM, says I!
I still wasn't convinced the batteries were at fault, even though everything pointed to them.
Finally, in exasperation, I jumped the starter with a screw driver and let the system do what ever it would. What happened was that I heated up the connection on the frame rail where the starter battery cable, Battery + cable and the 50DN cable all meet up in a junction. We had smoke and smell, so I ceased and desisted and let the junction cool for about a half hour before taking it apart.

When I finally crawled in there in a true contortionist pose and took the junction apart, I found that the cable ends were all pitted and greasy and burnt FUBAR The cable end from the battery was actually welded to the terminal post.

I cleaned all these connections up, replaced the terminal ends with crimped and soldered ends, which by the way had originally been made with a factory crimper and were loose (  ) and put the New Napa 12V batteries in my bus replacing them in the C3 with my old batteries.... The C3 fired off on the first push of the button within less than a full revolution. It has been firing up easily ever since that time.

Check that silly hard to reach connection where the starter, batteries and alternator come together, you may be surprised.

Dallas

[Bob Gil]

The 4 clynder cumins I put in my suburban was hard to start after about 150,000 miles I was thinking it was the battteries.  The starter worked I did not think it had any problem.  I repalce the batteries twice with no difference.  I would go to start it and it would be dead but i could conect the bateries with my jumper cables and it would start right off.

When it was all said and done the starter I though was good had worn the housing where the bearing go so bad that it had to be replaced.  It has worked very well now for another 150,000 hope it keeps on working good.

[jjrbus]

I have installed the new starter but not wired it yet, game keeps getting called because of rain So this is not a non starting post.
I have 2 group 31's in the bus wired for 24V. They have been moved to the engin compartment. The ground wire from the battery is to a bolt welded to the frame, the ground wire from the starter attaches here also. There is no reason to suspect a problem here.
The positive side of the battery is connected to a Cole Herse selector switch. Where it can be connected to 1. the starter  2. the house batterys 3. both 1+2.  If the bus is not running the selector switch is always off. When running it is alomst always in the  #3. both 1+2 position.
The only other item hooked to the + terminal of the start batteries is a digital battery and tank monitor with LED readouts. There is a 2nd wire from the poitive + post of the starter/solenoid that goes to the engin compartment stud that Dallas mentions. This supplys power to the front electrical panel.
What has me wondering is on the original set of batteries, it was the Positive + battery that went bad. On the new batteries it was the poitive + battery that went bad, and the third time I took them back for a load test it was the poitive + battery that tested recharge and retest! Which I refused and replace battery under warrenty. I am 100% sure I did not mix up the batterys, it was always the positive battery.  It seems that the battery in the same position going bad 3 times is more than a concidence or is it 

[Blacksheep]

Similar situation with my discharging problem only I have 4 group 31's and it was always the same 2 that went south! Phantom drains is what everone told me but after purchasing my nifty on-board battery charger/float tender, never has there been a dead or even slightly dead battery in the bus! Always starts and quickly!
Something to think about!!!!!
Ace

[gus]

Pay close attention to what Dallas says about corroded cables and ends.

I found quite a bit of stuff like this on my 4104 both on battery cables and smaller wires.

I had a big bunch of green wire going into connectors and some would not pass current.

Just because your heavy bolt connectors both pos and neg are good doesn't make the overall connection good.

[JackConrad]

Can also be a bad cable, if insulation gets brokem and moisture gets insde the cable.  Any 12 volt (center tap) loads coming of the 24 volt starting batteries?  Jack

[jjrbus]

There is a 12V  battery/tank monitor on the battery that goes bad. The monitor is an LCD type that should have almost no draw on the batterys. This has been in place for years and never caused a problem.
I have disconnected this while monitoring batterys over days and see no difference.  I have also checked the selector switch with a digital meter and can find no leakage, when switch is off.
BS I have let this bus sit for months, without any outside charge and had no problem. On the surface it does seem like a phantom load. But there is no load, which is why I am curious if a starter problem could ruin a battery?? And why only one battery

[Fredward]

I've seen where a bad starter mimics a battery problem. As the starter gets old and worn it draws more current to do its job. There is a finite amount of current available from the batteries. When current draw increases; if there isn't enough battery potential to provide the additional current, the starter turns slower and needs more current which the batteries can't provide. Its a vicious circle. I've remedied the problem on a few occasions with a new starter.

For sure check the connections first because corrosion is usually our first opponent in these systems.

Fred

[mikelutestanski]

Hello;
    Just a comment about the same pair of batteries failing:   
      Question   Do you have an equalizer on your battery system?   If not it may help.  A charging system can only respond to the internal resistance of the load that it is trying to charge.  If for some reason you are tapping off the top batteries some significant 12v loads ; then the batteries internal resistance will be such that the charging system will not function properly. Then the batteries will fail. An equalizer takes care of the unequal loading and distributes the charge as required.
   FWIW  .   please make sure all the connections and cables are right.
   Another example:
     I had a problem with a generator starter cable that was brand new but the generator would not start.  The cable had been in the back of a truck that went thru Katrina; and while the cable was new the time in salt water had rendered it junk inside the insulation. 
   Regards and happy bussin.    mike

[NJT 5573]

If this is about the Eagle we discussed a few days ago you may want to pull the floor boards above the muffler and clean the common ground post from the batteries to the chassis. Do the lights work?