671 Vibration Repair. Can any of you come up with a cost?

[GM0406]

Ok,  I need to go down and pay for the work done on my '04.  Here is a description of what was done. 
First, Brought Coach in and told them to find what was causing the vibration.
Brought them 6 new injectors and told them to replace them as they were indicating some missing on two cylinders.
This did not solve the vibration problem.
They then determined that the crankshaft enplay was excessive.  Recommended removing the pan to check.
After removal of the pan, they indicated that the crank was totally out of spec. and should be replaced.
I brought them another engine from Craig C. that was a parts engine with the head held on by a few fasteners.
They removed the crank from that engine and declared it a good crank.
By this time, I think their estimate was between $5K and $7K.
They removed the 671 from my coach and replaced the crank in that engine.  They did not remove the head.
They lost the air cleaner by their clean-up man and I decided to find a used one for them to save the cost of a new one that they would have had to provide.  They did have extra work on this as they still had to modify pipes and hoses to reconnect the Walker oil recovery unit, etc.
The engine and trans were put back in, but we still had the vibration.
They removed the transmission and all clutch components.  Restarted the engine and the vibration was gone.
They tnen replaced the pressure plate, clutch disc, and throwout bearing.  They also replaced the wear plate at the flywheel which I bought and delivered to them from U.S. Coach.
Two additional tasks were performed.  One was to upgrade to a spin on oil filter, for which I supplied the adaptor and oil filter.  The second request was to pull the RF wheel and check for pulling.  They found grease on the brakes and cleaned it up and reinstalled the wheel.
Essentially this is the total work done. 
I have not been in a hurry for the coach and so as not to pressure them for getting done, I let them go at their own pace.  However, I am now getting hit with more than I think this should be based on my discussion with Luke.  So perhaps those of you who had input on Basil's 892 repair, might want to give me a number on this one.  Bill Thomas

[tekebird]

what are they wanting for the job?

Unfortunately your not being in a Hurry does not mean they are going to cut you a break unless that was agreed to in writing.

Labor rate is labor rate in most cases...if the two hour job ended up taking 4......your gonna pay for 4.

lets say the bill is 10k.

Subtract all the parts off that price then divide by say 75.00/hr which is a very low rate  comes up to around 16 8 hour days of work or so.

Now I would not be paying for any labor or parts involved in the air cleaner fiasco.  In fact, I would have demanded OEm replacement......you helped them out here.

I'd say if they were to order those parts if still available new ( which they are not in most cases) it would have been around 3k

[Ncbob]

One of the most traditional, and least diagnosed, failures of the 6-71 was the Vibration Dampener.  It hangs out there on the front end of the crankshaft and because of its' viscous makeup is the quiet champion of vibrations.  Has anyone thought of checking it?

Just my $0.02

Bob

[NJT 5573]

I'd just guess that your over $10,000. Your looking at it as a vibration repair.

I see an engine tune up top end. A crank job, out of frame on the bottom end and a clutch job.

I never recommend the take your time attitude. Every one in the shop will bill some time on it. Several different mechanics may start and stop and get lost on it. I like one or two mechanics straight thru until its finished, give me the bill and I'm gone.

[GM0406]

Well,

The balancer is out of the diaganosis since it was replaced by the previous owner chasing this vibration in San Diego.  The only operation that got rid of the vibration was the replacement of the pplate, disc, and TO bearing. 

Now parts on this should be as follows:  Main and Rod  bearings, lower gasket set and seals, clutch, pplate, and T.O. Bearing, rocker cover gasket, engine oil, antifreeze, and some Locktite products.  I have not seen a list from them yet, but they didn't indicate any other major part.  There has to be some cost assigned to steam cleaning the engine, painting the engine (not complete), and hot tanking and servicing the crank. 

The labor end did include (which I forgot in the previous post) replacement of the rear motor mounts which I got from Luke and they installed them while the trans was out.

I will have to go back and look at what Luke told me, but I think he had 70 hours for all.  But that is almost two weeks for one man, so 80 hours.

The fact that the coach was left there for them to work it into their schedule and work on it when they could, was not to have everyone in the shop add time to the ticket, rather to give them the time to do it without being under pressure on such an old unit where only those who really know what they are doing on this engine could work on it.  Actually one of the mechanics who worked on it had a heart attack and was out for a long period, resuming when he was recovered. 

Their main work there is on FedEx trucks, other trucks and some School buses.  Big diesel RVs are also in from time to time, as are buses on a much lower frequency.  They have a good group of employees and are excellent when it comes to machine shop issues because they have a machine shop there.

I am sure we will work out the cost of this work. 

Those here who purchase coaches should do their homework to be sure the bargain they think they are getting does not include unforseen repairs!  And a coach that has had proper repairs done should certainly merit a higher price that a wise buyer could certainly justify instead of a lower priced unit that would actually be the higher priced one when you get done paying for what needed be done before you bought it!!  I should be ok here as the price I paid for this coach allowed me room to do some work.  It is a very clean coach with an older conversion, but done very well.  And with the high cost of fuel now, a larger coach is out of the question for us.  You may pass us on the hills, but we will get there on less fuel. 

Very interested in any other comments on this repair if you care to add yours.  Bill Thomas       

[tekebird]

A common source of Vibration is a Clutch job without replacing the flywheel bolts....sometimes even ending up with sheared/failed flywheel bolts.

all that work for 70 hours is not that bad. considering it was a hunt for a problem of unknown source.

Unfortunately your wise words of buying a well maintained coach at a small premium generally goes on deaf ears.

I do not know how many buses I have tried to talk people out of, knowing they had unknown or crappy maint. only to have them sink thousands into the bus within a year.....and sometimes a sizable bill on the road with an unknown shop.

[GM0406]

Well I don't know that this was about the great hunt.  My original expectation, after talking to many and going through all kinds of possibilities was that the problem was in the pressure plate.  I still don't know why they didn't at least start the engine after the crank work and check before installing the transmission?  Instead they wasted time by having to remove the transmission a second time.  Once the trans and clutch were removed, she was as smooth as glass!  Their diagnosis that the vibration was caused by the crank was proven wrong as soon as the engine war restarted with the replaced crank.  We had exactly the same vibration with no change at all!  Now this flywheel bolt issue is one that I will take up with them today.  If these should be replaced with new ones when a flywheel is removed, then I will expect that they have been replaced with new ones.  If not, this trans just may come out a third time!  I am not interested in being a cheap skate and not paying for needed repairs.  I will be expecting that all has been done according to Detroit standards.  Any parts I have provided are my responsibility.  Honesty and fairness. 

So, this is not a case where I took the coach to a couple of guys in a repair shop and tried to tell them what to do.  I took the coach to those who are a professional DD repair shop.  I expect that they will listen to what I say, but they are responsible to diagnose and repair.  And for that, they are paid accordingly.  The main reason for going to those who work on these units all the time, is that they are less apt to be fooled by going on tangents and wasting time and money to find problems.  In our business we arrive on the scene and look for the usal culprits in the air conditioning world, and guess what?  They are regularly there to be found causing the same old problems!  It gets funny after a while, because you just insticitively go to the known sources of trouble and deal with the same old stuff.  Ya they have different names and colors, but basically the same old stuff!

I guess I enjoy troubleshooting.  I can't stand broken stuff and am constantly fixing everything.  Some of the highlights of my life have been finding out what is causing the problem.  This has provided a good income and a lot of satisfaction.  And the process is eaier the more you do it. 

Anyway, Thanks for the response here and I will go down and have a pow wow with these guys and we will get this paid for and handle it.  A lot of good guys down there and a lot of fun to see what they are up to.  I guess I am a mechanic at heart, but can't stand the cleaning solvent and grease and dirt anymore.  Bill Thomas   

[kingfa39]

dont sound to me like they have a clue what they are trying to do
Frank allen

[tekebird]

Unfortunately several things:

your average DD shop does not have anyone who has seen a 2 stroke detrioit, if they due he is about due or past due for retirement.

a DD tech will really know nothing about an allison or spicer tranny unless they happen to be techs for that....
even then a V trans is something they likely never saw.

the flywheel bolts should be replaced any time they are disturbed.......they can and will fail causing road breakdowns and possibly other damage.

I think I would have started from the other end...not the engine myself.

Suggest you located a reputable 2 stroke DD mechanic/shop, and a bus mechanic that knows GM's.

generally the only time a DD dealership touches a bus it is a warranty job.

[tekebird]

where are you located Bill?

[GM0406]

Teke et al,

I am in San Jose, Ca.  Basil is evidently somewhere here too.  I gave him my cell number, but he hasn't called.  I went down and met with Martin and we quickly came to agreement on the total repair which came to ~$10,500.  I wrote them a check and was glad to get the coach back.  And for anyone rightfully yelling about flywheel bolts, they were replaced.  So this '04 is back on the road and is a pleasure to drive with that vibration gone.  I even treated her to 6 new tires and four bags of equal for the rear tires, luckily the front has auto balancers put on by George Thornhill, so no balance necessary on those.  With the new injectors and Craig's old crank out of his rebuilt 671, she spools up nice and smooth like these fantastic DDs are famous for.  7 main bearings for 6 cylinders!  If DD burned fuel odor is any indication of fuel mileage, this one is amazing.  Living near neighbors like a lot of us do, fumes from these babies as they warm up and build pressure are not welcome.  These new injectors have really made a difference and I can warm up with no compaints from my wife, which is a first here!  By the way, the repair invoice is several pages long and reads like a book.  Will post more later, but interested in any response and apologize for long delays as I do bus stuff and all the rest around the bus stop here!  Bill T.

[Airbag]

Bill
It sounds like you got your monies worth. I am from the Bay Area my Dad lived in Saratoga before he passed. Vibration problems can frustrating with any vehicle. Happy Motoring.