HYDROGEN MPG BOOSTER

[compedgemarine]

while yes it seems there are several topics going here the facts are that hydrogen as a fuel works. GM, the universities and BMW have them running around and those that have driven them say they are no different running than when on gas. Jay Leno drove the BMW for a month and wrote about it in Popular Mechanics and other than there not being fueling stations availible right now he loved the car.
now as far as producing it on the fly in your car and being efficient I dont know much about and have not seen one firsthand but I am open minded enough to think it could happen. while some say it would take as much energy to produce usable hydrogen to run as it could create in energy well that is assuming you know how much energy is really availible in the item. maybe we just havent learned to release all the energy stored.
as far as laws of physics, thats great if you want to compare written sheets of paper but remember that that paper says a hummingbird cant fly. lucky for us he is to dumb to know that and flies anyway. If something like this becomes a reality it will be because of those to dumb to know it wont work and makes it happen. after all Einstein failed most of his classes in school and was considered a lost cause by his teachers and yet if it were not for him we wouldnt have power to run these computers that are supposed to weigh 1.5 tons so we could sit and discuss how nothing is possible.
just my $.02
steve

[Stan]

Hightechredneck:

In a gasoline engine (which I know better than diesels), there is always unburned fuel, hence the need for catalytic converters these days to reduce hydrocarbon emissions.  Increasing the oxygen in the cylinder aids more complete combustion.

Notice that I said to put the proper amount of fuel and air into a cylinder to get complete combustion.  The Japanese car companies did that for years and did not require catalytic converters. You can even run a gasoline engine so lean that there is oxygen left over, but that tends to burn holes in piston heads (when the aluminum becomes fuel).

[niles500]

Bumblebee myths

Buff-Tailed bumblebee, Bombus terrestris
Bombus vosnesenskii
[edit] Flight
According to 20th century folklore, the laws of aerodynamics prove that the bumblebee should be incapable of flight, as it does not have the capacity (in terms of wing size or beat per second) to achieve flight with the degree of wing loading necessary. Not being aware of scientists 'proving' it cannot fly, the bumblebee succeeds under "the power of its own arrogance".[23] The origin of this myth has been difficult to pin down with any certainty. John McMasters recounted an anecdote about an unnamed Swiss aerodynamicist at a dinner party who performed some rough calculations and concluded, presumably in jest, that according to the equations, bumblebees cannot fly.[24] In later years McMasters has backed away from this origin, suggesting that there could be multiple sources, and that the earliest he has found was a reference in the 1934 French book Le vol des insectes by M. Magnan. Magnan is reported to have written that he and a Mr. Saint-Lague had applied the equations of air resistance to insects and found that their flight was impossible, but that "One shouldn't be surprised that the results of the calculations don't square with reality".[25]

It is believed that the calculations which purported to show that bumblebees cannot fly are based upon a simplified linear treatment of oscillating aerofoils. The method assumes small amplitude oscillations without flow separation. This ignores the effect of dynamic stall, an airflow separation inducing a large vortex above the wing, which briefly produces several times the lift of the aerofoil in regular flight. More sophisticated aerodynamic analysis shows that the bumblebee can fly because its wings encounter dynamic stall in every oscillation cycle. [26]

>>>> There is your answer to Bumble Bees - I've never heard that Humming birds can't fly ??

That is why we stick with science and document it on written sheets of paper - we need to remember it!

It's all in Da Book so to speak!

[compedgemarine]

well see, there ya go. with time science proved that science was wrong all along . so whos to say that with time science wont prove that not being able to produce hydrogen to run your own car was wrong all along.

[Chaz]

Hey Guys,
  I know we have now all determined that cars do drive on Hydro(gen). To what end is probably the question. I'm just hoping for a nice "assist" to my diesel loving big hunk of joy.
  But.......... here is a neat little article that you might like to read. http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/may2007/id20070508_055560.htm?l
  Altho it is a rather small and light little thing, it seems to remind me of the 1.5 ton computer. But this has the potential to "grow" where as the computer shrunk.
  Enjoy it!
     Chaz

p.s. by the way, have you noticed the way topics about "fuel" REALLY get people going?!?! Interesting. I wonder why.

[HighTechRedneck]

I really like that approach Chaz.  I'm even more glad to see a company other than big oil backing it.

p.s. by the way, have you noticed the way topics about "fuel" REALLY get people going?!?! Interesting. I wonder why.

frustration, anger, financial drain, etc. I would imagine.

[Dreamscape]

I wouldn't know which molecule is what. Not my thing.

I will say that anyone who tries to improvise a way of doing something and it fails they should just keep trying. It took Einstein a lot of failures before he got it right.

Kuddos to those that have the means  and foresight to think ahead, because the fossil stuff will run out someday. They said we couldn't go to the moon, guess what we did. That's the positive thinking that changes the world we live in.

Good Luck to any and all who persevere!

Paul

[Jeremy]

My mother is into jewellery making, and she has an electrical device that produces hydrogen from water to supply fuel to her soldering torch - apparently hydrogen is far superior than propane when doing fine detail work because with hydrogen you can have a much smaller and more delicate (but still sufficently 'hot') flame than you can with propane. I believe that the device that produces the hydrogen doesn't consume much electricity, but of course it is only producing minute amounts of the gas compared to what you would require to run an engine.

Incidentally, even if you 'do' have a viable supply of hydrogen on board, it would need to be correctly metered into the engine using an arrangement similar to an LPG system. You cannot simply fed it into the induction air flow as was implied by the original website link at the start of this thread - not only would the mixture control be completely screwed up (which would shut everything down on an EFI engine), but you would be inviting a 'blowback'. These occur when the burning LPG (or hydrogen) gets past the inlet valves and proceeds to burn all the gas in the inlet manifold / hose / air cleaner etc - basically it is like a backfire in your induction system that sets fire to the top of your engine.

Jeremy

PS. Regarding the 'bumble bee' issue - it's well known in model aircraft circles (another thing in which I have an interest) that the sophistication of flight that evolution has given birds is still way beyond anything that can be properly understood, much less reproduced, by man. The whole area of ornithopters (flapping-wing craft) is still in the steam-age, relatively speaking.

[bassfid]

I have been looking at this for some time, and am somewhat sceptical.  I am pleasantly surprised at the volume of replies!   Another website: http://www.nationalvapor.com/

bassfid 

[Barn Owl]

Better than HHO!

I am starting my own company and promoting my own free energy discovery. I found that I can take rocks from my driveway and put them in my fuel tank.  When I drive my vehicle, instead of putting gas in, I found that when I add these special rocks that by some unknown phenomenon, the tank stays full! The closest thing to a miracle I know.  I am in need of volunteers to demonstrate my discovery. I will send you a kit at no charge, because I look out after my bus friends. All I need is for anyone interested to send me a small shipping and handling fee.  After you discover that your tank stays full you can post testimonials on my soon to be web site. For doing so I will send you more free rocks that you can give your friends. My only worries is that big oil will try to suppress this and do me bodily harm. I might have to go underground and use your bus conversions to hide in. I could probably hang out for no more than a month at a time, but with so many conversions to hide in, you would only have to hide me once.

[Stan]

I looked through the hype on the National Vapor site and like most "Improve your Mileage" things you have to be sceptical. This quote from the site caught my eye and it is obvious the inventor doesn't understand basic electricity so he can come up with any theory he wants.

You see, the engine alternator keeps turning whether or not the engine and battery use all of the electricity it produces. ENERGY IS WASTED CONSTANTLY TURNING THE ALTERNATOR, THAT IS CAPTURED TO POWER THE HYDROGEN GENERATORÒ WHICH, IN TURN, PRODUCES HYDROGEN AND OXYGEN GASES USED TO IMPROVE COMBUSTION.

Like I said in a previous post, the world will bow down to the inventor of the "Perpetual Motion Machine".

[Chaz]

I looked through the hype on the National Vapor site and like most "Improve your Mileage" things you have to be sceptical. This quote from the site caught my eye and it is obvious the inventor doesn't understand basic electricity so he can come up with any theory he wants.


Quote
You see, the engine alternator keeps turning whether or not the engine and battery use all of the electricity it produces. ENERGY IS WASTED CONSTANTLY TURNING THE ALTERNATOR, THAT IS CAPTURED TO POWER THE HYDROGEN GENERATORÒ WHICH, IN TURN, PRODUCES HYDROGEN AND OXYGEN GASES USED TO IMPROVE COMBUSTION.

Like I said in a previous post, the world will bow down to the inventor of the "Perpetual Motion Machine".

  OK, correct me if I am wrong here, but it was my understanding that the alternator would continue to produce electricity, as long as it was spinning, if there was a need for it. IE. charge the battery/run the system. If there was no need for electricity it would regulate itself and not overcharge.
  If there is such a need that the alternator actually does produce electricity all the time - cause it's needed - then one could always install another alternator specifically for the production of Hydrogen.................. not??
  And, I am in agree-ance that it probably won't produce enough hydrogen to completely supply an engine, but if set up correctly, why couldn't it be an assist to the fuel and there by at least give us better mileage?? I know I would LOVE to get more MPG!!
 
  I don't know, maybe it's just me..............but I REALLY want to see things persued and be invented to not only help us enjoy ourselves more and save money and help the earth, but also be able to benefit YOUR kids and grandkids and great grandkids in the future.
   When I'm gone, ehhh, it's over for this bloodline, (and maybe some would think that is a good thing ) but I would still like to have the people of the future not judge us TOO harshly for not doing more. We surely can, if not just by giving a little encouragement and maybe just trying something once in awhile. (I and 5 other guys are working on building a corn burning furnace that will DRY corn for the farmers. By our estimates, it will save a farmer 4/5ths the amount of money he would spend on propane. And it doesn't have to be "good" corn. It can be old moldy corn or stuff that would be thrown away. Will it work?? I don't know, but I think so. I am at least willing to try, to spend my money and time in hopes that it will. Will there be a gain for me if it does? Well, I'd certainly like to make a little something. But if not, so be it. It's something I can do so there for, I should. I'm not completely altruistic, but I try.  ) Oh, and just in case any of you think I'm some hippy left over tree hugger........................well, ok maybe a little. But, I also did well enough to create a business, run it well enough to retire at 40 and NEVER rip anyone off.
  But don't get me wrong, personally, and this is just my opinion, I think charlatins, con-men and people just  out to rip others off should be shot. Period. I have ZERO use for them except target practice.

  So anyway, like I said, it's just my opinion, but encouragement and maybe helping weed out some of the P.O.S. who would rip people off would be a little nicer than bad mouthing stuff that has potential.

  Sorry for the editorial.
     Chaz

[Stan]

Chaz: Maybe a explanation that you understand. As a welder, I expect that you have used an engine driven welder. When the engine is running the welder is putting ut full voltage but no current so almost no power is being used from the engine. Strike an arc (drawing current) and you hear the engine lug down and the governor open up.

Same thing on a vehicle. If the vehicle does not require any current (no electrical load) The alternator is producing full voltage but with no current drain, it presents a small mechanical load on the engine. Any current being used, whether to run your headlights or produce hydrogen increases the load on the engine.

Claiming that the hydrogen produced, and used as fuel, produces more power than what was used to make the hydrogen is the basis of a Perpetual Motion Machine. You just start with a tank of water, break it down into hydrogen and oxygen which you use for fuel in the engine and then use the exhaust (water) to replace the water used out of the tank. No matter how you slice it or dice it or hype it, that just doesn't fly.

[Dallas]

I've had about 4 beers dult beverages.. of low end quality, even though JR and I both like it  , but here is a thought.....

If like we learned in Chem 101 and Chemistry in high school, you add sulphuric acid to sugar, the result is oxygen, hydrogen and carbon, why couldn't you recycle batteries, creating useful stuff from old batteries, by overcharging them, (creating hydrogen gas), obtaining sugar in whatever form and adding excess battery acid to it, since if you put distilled water into a battery you end up with more sulphuric acid? Another source of acid would be from various strip mines. Peabody Coal Company produced coal for well over 100 years and at the same time destroyed 100's of thousands of acres of land in Kentucky, Tennessee, Montana and Wyoming by poisoning them with the by product of the strip mine process which as far as I know is sulphuric acid.

The state of Kansas Ag dept. some years back published a pamphlet that said that if they grew corn in the median of the freeways, "only" they could supply all the needs of the United States. Simple math tells me that if this is possible, then adding a few more states like Nebraska, SD, ND, Iowa, and any others that want to join in, could grow enough corn for to make a sweet corn syrup, available to any who wanted it to be able to make a viable vehicle propulsion.

OK, I have a couple of beers left, let the flames begin.. I need the tan.

[Chaz]

Understood, Stan. But I was thinking more along the line of the Hydro improving the effeciency of the diesel by being an additive, not by standing on it's own merit. That would not be the PMM.
  I got some info off the net about producing Hydro and Jerry L. looked it over. There was something in there that got his attention. What? .......... well I don't know. I'm not that technical. But it made an impression on him. I will have to take a look. But I think it may have been something about 2 kinds of hydrogen.
And, just for grins, there could also be solar panels in the quation.


Dallas,
  I've often thought about that "Corn Highway" thing, but before we go to that length, and since corn is becoming such a comodity, how about the government quit paying farmers to NOT grow crops??  (I think they call that "set asides" ??)  Just a thought.
   Chaz