Bio Diesel Again

[JohnEd]

Bill47Clip,

See, now that was my info from the "scientist".  He had graphs of "all" oils and there were only a couple VOs that didn't have more BTU's of energy per unit of volume than DinoD.  Your quote of the Ottawa experience seems to support that.

There is one aspect of this that really boggles my mind:  You can get "BAD" batches of BioD no matter how careful you are.  They can't explain it and only tell you to not use oil from that restaraunt again.  Some of the BAD product you cannot even re-refine.  They call it "goo" and it is a real tragedy for clean up and disposal.  I have never heard this said about any WVO that was run.  Maybe the message is to not mess with a good thing.  Don't know.

One of the bad byproducts from the BioD refining process is glycerin.  They are now making a high quality soap from that and selling it.  There is no end to these people.  I guess if you turned them loose they would become EXXON.

I am really torn on this.  You need to install line heaters if you run straight Bio at even Fall temps.  You have to install line heaters and all the rest of the thermo kit to run WVO anytime.  The thing that scared me was that the oil going into the injectors was pistol hot and the stuff is supposed to "cool" the injectors.  Yet the woods are full of people that have results so great with WVO that they are positively giddy about it.

This is really deep!

John

[Stan]

This thread started out as a question on using biodiesel in his bus engine. It has morphed into a lot of opinions (discussion) on vegetable oils and biodiesel without any mention of the kind of vegetable oil or the kind of biodiesel being discussed. You can't compare apples to oranges - you can't even compare a grannysmith apple to a red delicious apple. Different kinds of apples and different kinds of fuel.

There have been long discussions on propane versus butane because one has more BTUs oer unit volume and the other has more BTUs per unit weight. This thread is the same kind of discussion.

[47FLXclipper]

John - the "critical" variable with WVO is hydrogenization, that type is fairly solid at room temperature - the bionuts around here avoid it, Hal never got WVO from McD's 

Bill

[tekebird]

japanese restraunts are touted to be the best source of WVO as far as qulity.

I would suggest that anyone interested in doing Bio or SVO/WVO conversion find someone locally who has done it and become their shadow.  and see things first hand.

the WWW is not really a place to get a accurate portrait......as there are two many sides and aspects

the problem with WVO on a bus is trying to find 100+ gallons of it at a shot...or stopping every day to hunt for it.

if your that gung ho then go for it.  If you want to spend your vacation vacationing then run diesel.

[JohnEd]

Bill,

Thanks!  Something else to not digest from McD's.  I didn't know that.

Stan,

It is WAAAYYYYY worse than you think.  The oils have distinct characteristics between varieties.  Those distinct characteristics are also variable from year to year and where the source crop was grown and from whose seed.  It made me dizzy...but that is less of a challenge than I like to admit.  The thing is like every other engineering/chemistry operation...."this is always true....depending on...IF...when"...cough gag.  The other way to say this is "that isn't necessarily true"  about everything stated or asked.  Somehow they, the hobbiests, have ways to juggle their refining process and procedure to compensate for the variety and condition.  The little guy runs test batches to get his process exactly correct before he delves into the entire 40 gallons kit and kaboodle.  Sure its complicated...but if that is as far as we go we aren't gone far...everything can be made complicated by somebody.

Your logic certainly isn't wasted. though.

Thanks,

John

[Stan]

John: Not necessarily waaaay worse than I think. Last year I had some correspondence with a grad student doing biodiesel research at a Western Canadian University. Yes - Canada is dumb enough to export petroleum and use food grain for fuel.  When I asked him if it was an energy positive fuel, he conceded that he did not know and it was not part of his research. Since this was an agriculture department program one would think that positive energy output would be the first requirement and it puts the whole program into question.

I appreciate that this thread has remained civil and has a lot of information but when one post refers to a product and the next one indicates that it is wrong because of data about a different product is really confusing to the newby.

[JohnEd]

Stan,

No worries Mate.  Civilities or no, we are still trading info and opinions and with each post we more closely define each.  For my part it would be OK if you weren't "civil" by the popular definition.  Style does matter to me but I really want your opinion and data....even if it is a comment on where we have gone wrong.  I value all your input.  I know that I can stand my own as far as being and A *OLE....I was a noncom and a civil servant in the defense industry.  A guy I shut down once told me "you will never get a hemorrhoid, ever, its impossible.  Cause you are a PERFECT A *HOLE".  Imagine, me perfect.  Mother would be so proud.

As far as where this thread started.....we are still on WVO, SVO and BIOD.  So far WVO gets a lot of rave reviews from users and it is free fuel.  Scientists see a dark side in there and some engineering tests confirm buildups.  Still, the masses rave on about the virtues.  SVO gets some cautions from the scientists but is supposedly better than WVO.  BIOD gets a raving pass with cautions.  It is a proven superior fuel to Dino in almost every way but cold running and diluting it or using line heaters make "all better".  The BIO is susceptible to poor quality due to refining mistakes or poor stock.  Horror stories abound but all are anecdotal in nature and cannot be repeated so science and engineering reject their data.  BIOD has been proven to work well in diesel, home heating oil, and JP4 applications and is considered a replacement for Dino.

As far as being energy neutral, alcohol isn't energy neutral.  It even creates a worse carbon foot print than DINOG.  From a balance of payments standpoint I think it is still a positive step...don't know though.  BIOD does recover more energy and is positive even at the SVO stage, let alone WVO.  Farmers are doing it and they are one group that doesn't work backwards.  Maybe that is the proof.

ARCO is another oil company that doesn't use a single drop of SAUDI oil.  They get all my bus.  Saudi recently announced a "Boycott all American made goods" campaign.  We can't do without them, though.  Maybe just do as little as we can with them.  Is that "political"?

Thanks all,

John

[Stan]

The input energy cost to obtain crude petroleum oil is almost all used in the production of the drilling equipment that drills the oil well.

The input energy cost for crude vegetable oil starts with energy used to build farm machinery, dams and canals and pumps for irrigation, fertilizer (from petroleum) fuel for the farm machinery and then the input costs of the crushing plant.

From the well head or the crushing plant, the raw material then starts its journey through the refining and distribution chain.

The SVO proponents only count the fuel used in the farm machinery to show how efficient SVO is to produce.

The agricultural subsidy and tax system are so convoluted worldwide that it is impossible to determine actual cost. The last report I read on biodiesel in the US was that it was being sold without road tax and still was higher priced than dino. That really restricts your market to the true believers who aren't using the fuel in a competitive industry and of course Willy.

The US will never become energy independent as long as they use the internal combustion engine unless the economic system reverts to the early 19th century.  The large area with small population per square mile requires too much fuel for transportation.