Bio Diesel Again

[JohnEd]

Take,

Who can argue with eye witness testimony and scientific evidence.  And no my tongue is NOT in my cheek.  I am not trying to beat you up on this.  Can you tell me why the B100 you tested went bad?  That it was bad is proven, but why?  Could you get a control sample that had more of a known history?  In terms of science, one sample does not work as proof of anything except Nuc. Fusion.  What impurities were in the sample that could not be attributed to aging?  What was the original WVO stock oil variety?  All VO does not perform equally in any regard that I have seen and shelf life must be on that list. There are thousands of people across this country using WVO and B100.  In Europe it is LAW that they add VO to the Dino.  LAW!  I always hate it when people say "that wouldn't work in this country".  Why is that...is their gravity different than ours?  What?  France and Germany have had that law for years and I think Germany is going to 10% VO and France IS AT 10% and expects to go higher.  They are using two VOs that aren't as common in the US....Rape seed for one.  I might be wrong on the numbers but the message is the same.  Their B100 is made from virgin oil and surely to god it has a shelf life and engine mfr.s are building engines that thrive on it or at least tolerate the stuff.  I might sound like I am on a rant but I swear I am not.  Charlie Davidson is modifying his coach to use WVO and another Knut has the entire system installed and working.  I have every plan to build a B100 conversion system for my use in auto and bus.  I have something more than a KEEN INTEREST in the viability of this particular adventure BEFORE I get soaked for all the equipment.  As far as the separating in your tank...the stuff sold as B50, B20 and B10 are mixed for you at the pump as a blend.  I can't imagine that this stuff would stratify in your tank and I haven seen anything in the lit that relates to "solubility" in Dino.

I hope you take up these points Take.  Your last leaves me with serious contradictions as to the viability of this stuff.  I know your time is valuable and my delema is my own but I hope you will find time to help.  I also don't want to screw up friends that expect to burn this stuff when I get it going, IF I get it going.

Your fellow Knut and aspirant fuel refiner,

John

[tekebird]

no Problem John,

1st the blends in my neck of the woods are in the tank in the ground as blends.....god knows what checmicals they put in there to do what...did not research that far.

I know our local "refinery" of Bio ( not where I got the bad stuff) uses all sorts of VO as base....all depends on what they get.

as for my bad stuff....it was just tested for volitility ( combustability) not for impurities.  Could not tell you were it came from (refinery) as I was not the purchaser..thatw as all routed through US coach...there were no ID markes on the pretty blue new 55 gal drums...no dates either.

Donl;t know anything about the Euro Laws.....I suspect it is more for enviro reasons ( output gases than anything else.)  Iknow VW is the forerunner in Bio and they have a very low % that they will Allow under their US warranty system

Yes there are thousands running SVO and WVO and probably a few thousand running B100 too, but thewre are likely more running full electric vehicles.....  What I find funny is I found very little data on the downfalls or drawbacks of Bio fuels as far as operation...although when probed and talking to people who run the stuff the true stories come out.

You have to keep in mind...the types who really go at that already have the agenda in their head...just like anything else if you are balls to the wall behind an agenda you either don;t ever go against the positive aspects or are not open about it. (think stem cell research)

PA Dot is running 10% Bio have not heard anything bad......a local school district who a freind who operates the fleet as well as being a fuel Distributor has nothing good to say.....alot of cold no starts due to thick fuel in PA winters  this is 10%.  He goes to alot of fuel conferences and such, and has not been sold on it. 

Now as far as B100 or any of the blends....there is no industry standard......so unless you are at home and know who made the stuff and what they used...you don;lt know what you get.

as i said our local distillery ( more appropiate term as I think of them as a million dollar moonshine operation....LOL) used whatever they can get....

nowas far as my 4104 tour....it went from PA to St Louis with the bad fuel...diluting it every so many miles to restore some get up and go.  It left St louis with Bio 100 on flat ground I could notice the loss of power although it ran OK.  Due to time constraints and the lack of availability of B100 we were authorized to refill with DINO for the mad rush for a Vegas Trade Show.

Following vegas it ran on B100 exclusivel until October I think it was when in Idaho and points up that way they had some gelling issues.......and they went to B50

note we had a couple thousand dollar marine Racor heated Filter element upstream of the DD primary and secondary filters.....fuel lines were replaced and were nicelyt nested against the coach heater lines ( always hot during operation)...the bus was plugged into 120 overnight to provide for tank heating and also had 12 v heaters for use stationary and or underway.  and they still had issues with cold starts......oh yeah...block heater plugged in prior to starts too.

Now this was all on a simple 6-71 with 60k miles from new....not a worn out 1/2 lifed or worse powerplant.

When I leased a coach to a political campaign a couple years ago I had opportunity to run into another candidates coach ( different office) who was running Bio and toutin and advertising the fact....turns out they only did it when they had access and it was only B10  it was summer so they did not have any issues they cared to share with me.

I should have more real life experience this summer when the 04 takes the road again...this time East Coast.

as I said the only guy I have talked to that I buy and Believe is Charles I think at Golden Fuels in Branson Area....he claims to be able to build a system that will run relaibly in Alask Year round.....now I don;t know if I buy that completly and I would certainly never try it on anything I own......but if it can be done that is they guy I would bet can do it. 

His system was not cheap though.


now back to the 04......the tour manager was a younger guy who has been doing WVO tours in Diesel winibagos and has a fair ammount of real life experience......we got along well and he would speak candidly about stuff......he has had problems.....again mostly cold start stuff.....but some not so good fuel too.....


now on to feasbility.......outside of B100 costing more than Dino.......

I found several legit university studies....some even funded by Pro Bio funding( if you know where to look you can figure out where research fiunding comes from so you can figure out why or if things are skewed.....)
well the stuff costs more to distil than Dino.....mainly because ther e is no infrastructure.....and becuase it is not a proven fuel source.....they can;t amoratize the cost over 30 years or better.

as far as Dino Independant US or anywhere else for that matter..... can't physically happen.  If you converted all Non built on land in the US to grow Bio Fuel base plants, we would still not meet the demand of the cxommercail trucking industry alone...not to mention planes, baots, private vehicles aircraft, or home heating oil....same ratios on a gloabl perspective.... and even if there were anough open land......we would be just saving money on fuel to see food prices go through the roof.  I was very impressed with the two studies I read......now with that said the emissions values from Bio fuels was very impressive in comparison to Dino.  One of these studies was the Univ of Michigan if I recall and the other was from some midwest school of engineering.


I also found it interesting that Bio fuels are not easily found in the grain belt...and when you can they are in the B3-B5 variety......who would have thiunk it. 

[Stan]

There are sources of waste organics to make into ethanol and bio diesel. In some cases this is a practical source of fuel. Brazil makes lot of ethanol from sugar cane waste and they run cars on 100% ethanol.

In most parts of the world using food grains to make fuel is the height of idiocy. A national newspaper reported last week that during 2007 there was a major drawdown of world stock of food grains. Their projection was that if any of the worlds large grain exporting countries has a major crop reduction this year starvation will occur in a lot of importing countries.

In the US and Canada, this has all the appearances of a farm subsidy program without looking at the 'action - opposite reaction' in that they are raising food prices while reducing supply.

[JohnEd]

Stan,

Good info.  I don't know if it was Brazil or Argentina but one of them is energy independent.  They import NO DINO for car and truck fuel.  I think part of the "cost" of Dino is hidden in the fact that a foreign country is getting your money.  That is hurting us as it is the Saudi's that are buying our Gummint Bonds and we are paying , what, 60% of our taxes to SERVICE those bonds.  That bites big time.


I read on a post the other day that the Saudi's have gone on a "boycott all American made products" binge.  Darn it all to Heck,  I hate to give people money that are working against me and mine.  Having worked on the "Saudi Naval Improvement Program, SNIP" for a year or so I can tell you true that they pump hundreds of billions into our defense contractor corporations.  Make your head swim and the amts and where are "classified" although I have read a lot of numbers that purported to be the correct tally and some of that came from our own Pentagon.  Wood they lie?  You bet they wood, or so it seems.  There is a way to avoid contributing to the Saudi mess and make your point....according to one post.  It seems the Royal Dutch Shell gets no oil from Saudi...Indonesia or so.  Sinclair Oil has no Saudi input  AND OF COURSE THERE IS CITGO FROM VENZUELA.  Contrary to press, Hugo does not get the proceeds personally....its worse.  He uses it ALL for the tax coffers that fund medi care and retirement and schools and infrastructure.  No wonder we hate this guy.  Imagine EXXON's reaction.  Citgo also gives away fuel oil to the poor in New York city while our guys have cut the funding to the poor for heating assistance.  Gummint hates him also.  " I smell sulphur here at this podium" , I cracked up.  The guy really is funny, you gotta giv'em that.

Take,

I read that point also about our getting independent from veggie.  Brazil does not have the consumption that we have.  No country on earth has our percapita appetite.  I think the number is that the best we could hope for was 10%.  That was squeezing the available farm land and mfr facilities real hard.  The point evaded was that we have a lot of land in soil banks and unused and still a lot that is grass land for cattle that is eminently farmable.  The beef industry hates bio fuels of any sort.  Just look at the cost, in terms of pounds of grain fed, to produce one single pound of hamburger.  That hamburger has two side benefits....the cow flatulence(farts) are a serious contributor to "green house gasses" and then there is the artery clogging plus side.  Hey, I know what you are thinking and you are WRONG.  I eat at OUTBACK STEAK HOUSE weekly and I have the 16 oz. cut done ever so rare.  Lordy!  I drive a V8 and a V6 and I drive em hard.

I saw an ad for trains recently that claimed that shipping a ton of cargo a mile cost the rail line one gallon of fuel....err, maybe that was a hundred tons.  Anyway, some big number.  Also read almost the same day that the Gummint was cutting the subsidy to AMTRAC.  Do they ship any cargo or just people mostly in NYC?

Great talking to you and we gotta get closer to buses,

John

[JohnEd]

I'm still reading....makes me dangerous.

William Kemp is a professor and his book is encyclopedic and credible.  Another on BIODIESEL was just packed with history and real life experiences.  Seems that SVO has sooo very much stuff that it lacquerers up your rings and carbons up your combustion chamber.  Again....what type is a big factor.  Unwashed BioD is also a dirty burn with problems.  Washing is the last step unless you reclaim the methanol by distillation.  Really interesting stuff.

It seems that what I was told before is really true.  It is up to the guy that makes the stuff.  Curiously, it is the backyard brewer that never lets a bad batch out the door.  He is getting visual feedback all through the process and "sees" crap happening.  The big suppliers are apt to pump loads of crap because they dilute it and it is made in huge SS vats and tanks and there is no visual.  The spec for Bio is real but you only have to check your process 4 times a year and you might make 500 batches so there is ever so slight a chance that you could pump crap without knowing it.  Brrrrr.

Keep on keep'in on,

John

[JohnEd]

Update,

Today I heard that Virgin Atlantic Airlines made a flight from London to Antwerp(or someplace) on BIO.  Next is the trans Atlantic route and I bet they aren't telling the passengers.  Seems like it is a go.  The military was touting turbines that would run on SVO or lard or diesel years ago.  I guess turbines are less finicky.

In Eugene, Or the local refuse hauler has completely converted to BIO.  Another dept in our city/county gummint also recently announced that the remaining holdout in its study were being converted.  If our local buses aren't on BIO it is only a matter of time.

Interesting note on the standard for BIO D.  It seems that in the really detailed testing they take a peck of lab rats and subject them to x number of minutes of exhaust and record the time it takes them to die.  BIO D doesn't kill the little critters and they seem to thrive, curiously enough.  They ran the test for six days and gave up on killing the little buggers.  I heard BIO D was really super clean but that is a jaw dropper.  Details, I got none, but what killed them with DINO didn't even make em gasp with BIO.  Crazy, no?

John

[tekebird]

I bet if you take a good look they are all running blends.

Virgin Atlantic = B20

I have yet to see any company or agency with a fleet go to full Bio

[tekebird]

Oh I take it back....... the most probable of places to run a fleet of B100............Berkley, CA

[Lin]

Undoubtedly you say that because you know that California leads the world!

[JohnEd]

Tbird,

The newspaper article didn't spec the Bio content.  Actually I am surprised that it wasn't 10 or 5%.  I wasn't all that shocked that it was Virgin that did the first ever Bio powered commercial flight, however.  That guy is a entrepreneur that went from rags to billionaire and did that in england where the income tax tops out at 75% or some such idiocy.  In spite of what that system sucked out of his blood stream the guy remains a social conservative and contributes heavily to welfare causes.  It seems he is still in step with the conservatives with his blatant promotion of Boo and using his fortune and business to do it.  I wonder if the Dino crew will find some way to clip his Virgin wings?  

I read a piece long ago about the Berkley type experience.  It said that if you want to see where the country will be in fifteen years go look at what is going on in our universities.  The professors are the harbingers of nearly everything that happens.  The blue collar workers of our great nation have and deserve my respect and gratitude but I don't go to a beer bar to find out what the future has in store cause at best they know what happened last week.  The conversation I was having was one in which I was pondering why we spend SO much of our wealth on colleges and the group was composed of Geeks, primarily.  Well informed and educated Geeks, but Geeks none the less.  The other point agreed upon was that if 15 was too many outyears for your planning then look to California for the 5 to 10 year lead on popular thought.  Berkley, being in Ca. I guess gets bounced back and forth from university fortune telling to less far down the road.  I did a little superficial investigation and learned that the Geeks were right about that and I have never laughed off California or university professors or even Geeks, for that matter.  War protesters took on a new tint when I found out that they were well stocked with Vets that were deep into University and the really prominent ones were in California.  God knows they make my stomach flip for at least the year it takes me to catch up, usually.  But I am learning to not jump to any conclusions cause they aren't always right in the long run and sooner or later they will screw up...thats just common sense.

I have every hope of burning my own brewed Boo and cost is my driving factor.  I would do 100% if I knew the quality.

Thanks,

John

PS:  Look up Webster's def of "common"...as in sense.

[tekebird]

just read an article...

Due to the cleansing properties of Bio Fuel you will realize quicker oil contamination resulting in the need for shorter oil chg intervals.

also mentions due to the high Biological and water contamination susceptability, that you test your fuel regularly

[Lin]

Teke,
     You are certainly right to be pointing out all the risks and downsides to bio.  I think that, over a period of time, there will be a lot of progress with the stuff from innovation, standardization, and experience.  I like the idea of using it and will still look into getting my coach ready to do it.  That does not mean that I will run with 100% bio all the time though I may try a little.  How much are the oil change intervals diminished?  Is there a benefit to having a cleaner engine that makes it worthwhile?  There are lots of unknowns, hype, and predictions of doom.  It is really valuable to have a forum like this to filter through some of it.  I would still really like to talk to someone that has been running bio in an old Detroit for a while.

[JohnEd]

Lin,

I can't imagine the guys running Bio not getting intouch with you.  Look into WVO or SVO....that is the free fuel crowd.

After you have run some of the stuff in your tank your lines will be clean again.  That will cost you some filters.  With ALL THE TROUBLE DD went through and all the hyper warnings about going without a filter cartridge, clean fuel lines are a location worth striking out for.  Me thinks, anyway.

As far as your crankcase.....The Bio has no impact unless you have fuel blow-by in the cylinders or a leaking line in the head.  It isn't supposed to get there.  Along those lines is "synthetic" motor oil.  It is also a serious detergent and will clean an engine beautifully in short order.  The problem with crud in the interior is that the crud actually consumes or depletes the detergents in the oil so your oil life is shortened for safe operation.  I always flush my crankcase with diesel for 5 minutes before draining.  Ratio is a gallon in the crank case regardless of capacity of A GAS ENGINE.  Run warm engine at fast idle and drain.  Clean engine for clean oil.  Now if you fill with synthetic your oil will get dirty soon after your first change.  Thats OK and the filter will handle it and you can still run the extended milage.  The second fill with synthetic will stay cleaner looking for a longer period.  The stuff does run cooler and last longer and is slipperier and is cleaner....and on and on.  It is a really big deal with the truckers in their diffs, also.

I am with you....if there is a problem "they" will work it out.  There are many out there that hate the stuff and their really BAD experience will drive their opinion for a long, long time and that is to be expected.  They help keep us out of the woods, too.  No problem....it takes a village or group or swarm or coven or whatever....it just takes more than one.  Why we are here and answer each other even when we don't agree.  Thanks, Teke.

Good luck,

John

[tekebird]

I agree the snafu's will get worked out eventually.

What I found interesting is that if you search for Bio D WVO or SVO only the good stuff come up......way down on the list like 10,000'th item you will start to find research papers and studies that are not done by people who have a gain to be had.....thats where you find alot of the drawbacks......unless you can findsomeone with real world experience that does not have an agenda and will speak freely to both pros and cons.

WVO guys are the free fuel guys...SVO cost money.

drawbacks there is finding it ( good stuff) filtering it and keeping it thin.  Keep in mind Bio clouds at 50  WVO and SVO are thicker to begin with

[tekebird]

Lin,

the 4104 project I am invloved with has a bit over 500 miles on B100 for the most part......but even with all the mods we did, they still had to dilute to B50 to start in Oct in Idaho Washington and Oregon.  They would not have done it if they didn't have to.

there are lots of forums on Bio but most are on SVO/WVO.

keep in mind in reading, the vast majority of these people are a bit ...no alot left of center....and as with most people at the frindges they will not even think about hearing or saying anything negative about "their" cause