RE: headlights

[Kristinsgrandpa]

Not to steal a thread about headlights I'd like to start a new one.

In the recent thread about headlights some suggested getting european headlights.

Be careful as some lights are not legal on the road. Check this website.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/571.108.htm

It is pretty boring but all the legal terms/requirements and conditions for your lighting systems are published there.

The reason I bring this up is because of something that happened to a friend of mine, actually my son's friend.

He and his girlfriend, along with my son were in a neighboring county one night and had had a couple of beers at another friends house.

On the way home a passing deputy thought the boy's lights were too bright  (european, aftermarket).
After apprehending the friend  (for failure to dim his lights) and giving him a breathalizer  the friend got a DUI. Also had to fix the headlights to US specs.

It wouldn't have bothered me except my son calls me at 2:00 am to come to the next county to give him a ride home as the other boy was in jail and the car couldn't be driven at night with the lights like they were  

It would be a shame to be out at 0 dark thirty and be at the mercy of a hick town deputy like they were. (population about 2500)

I'd say that as long as they have DOT on them you will be sent along on your merry way.

I want better lights also, but am being cautious.  The website shows the specs for aiming headlights etc., but I have never heard of anyone getting a ticket for out of adjustment headlights, except my friend.

Ed

[TomCat]

Ed,

I knew my Cibie E code headlights were not 'legal' for use in the US, but really don't care.
The US headlight system is bad, and only getting worse from what I can tell.
My 'illegal' headlights are not offensive to others, do a much better job of lighting the roadway, and keep me and others I share the road with safer.

I'll take my chances.

Jay
87 SaftLiner

[Jerry32]

Thanks ED for the update on the headlites. I have been blinded by thos high power lites a time or two and guess some people don't care about others.  those lights shud only be used for off road use. Jerry

[Sean]

...
It would be a shame to be out at 0 dark thirty and be at the mercy of a hick town deputy like they were. (population about 2500)
...

Ed,

I agree with your point about the lights, in fact 100%.  But this comment really, really bothers me.

Let's see -- your son's friend was (1) driving a car with unlawful headlights and (2) driving with a blood alcohol content over the legal limit (which is way past the point when judgment and driving skills are impaired), and, somehow, this is the deputy's fault?  And therefore, his municipality is a "hick town"?  (Actually, sheriffs' deputies are county officials, so "town" is really the wrong term.)

I say, three cheers for that deputy.  He got a drunk driver off the road, and a set of unlawful lights to boot.  And I would say he showed a keen eye in spotting your son's friend before anyone (possibly your son) got hurt.

The person you need to be chatting with here is your son, who exhibited a tremendous lack of judgment.  I won't fault him for riding in a car with bad headlights -- it wasn't his car, and, without specialized training such as the deputy had, how would he know?  But riding with someone driving drunk, that's beyond the pale.  Unless your son was also too drunk to drive, he should have taken the keys.  ("Friends don't let friends drive drunk.")  And if they were both too drunk, then they should have called a cab.  Or you, for that matter -- as it turned out you were going to be up and driving at 2am anyway.

Please, folks, let's not berate law enforcement for doing exactly what we pay them to do.  And getting drunk drivers off the road is, IMO, a top priority.

-Sean
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com

[Tim Strommen]

Here Here Sean!

The quote I have a further issue with is:

...I have been blinded by thos high power lites a time or two and guess some people don't care about others...

Agree 100% on the not caring about others, but I'd caution to not generalize the issue you are having with "those high power lights".

There are many aftermarket bulbs being sold with do not meet the DOT FMVSS 108 specifications (>65Watts for low beam, >80Watts for high beam).  There are also bulbs which are tuned with a blue filter to look like High-Intensity-Discharge (HID) headlights.  Then there are people who retrofit non-HID fixtures with HID bulbs and ballasts to varrying degrees of "not caring about others".  Some even go so far as to put a simple HID bulb in a fixture designed for an H4 (9003) bulb without a lower reflector causing the fixture to always emit a high beam pattern (talk about blinding!!).


There are other causes for getting blinded - even by stock "DOT" light fixtures:

• Dirty fixtures (a thin film of dust can reduce your long range light by 30%, and increases scatered light right at the glass)
• Headlights out of aim (this can cause a low beam to have its "hot-spot" pointed at oncoming traffic - this still hurts)
• Morons who think having high beams on is a valid fix for a burned-out low beam (I've seen >30 cars in the SF bay area with this in the last week, and no cop pulls them over... )
• Morons who don't know that those Day-time Running Lights (DRLs) are actually their high-beams running at about 30% power (so the beam throws that little bit of light right into your face) so they don't turn their headlights on all the way (just parking lights and DRLs).

A similar issue but not a glare causing issue that miffs me is those car manufacturers who have the lit dash board - this apparently confuses some morons into thinking they have turned on their headlights!!!  Of course since the DOT headlight pattern is soooo bad, most of these people who havent turned on the lights just chalk the lack of night vision to that rather than grasping that the headlights aren't even on!!

This could all be fixed with a federal lighting standard that simply matched the ECE standard, and absolute exclusion of "HID Conversions", high wattage bulbs, and blue-colored bulbs (often are high wattage to overcome the blue filter), and would mandate proper aiming and location of the lamps so they wouldn't be offensive.

For my money, I have Cibie's on my truck and have the fixtures for the bus (just haven't gotten that far to necessitate putting them on).  Some states even allow E-Code headamps (despite the federal 108 standard - Oregon, Washington, Alaska come to mind).

I check for headlight aim every time I change my oil (about every 3-4 months), and a I wash my headlights and windshield every time I fill up at the gas station (at least once a week).  My DRLs run the low beams only (not the high beams!!) and turn on 7-seconds after the engine is turned over (regardless of parking brake state).  Finally I always replace my headlight bulbs (H4) when I bleed my brakes (annually) so I've never had a low beam burn out on me. That's simply preventative maintenance.

Cheers!

-Tim

P.S.  [rant] (slight tangent) About cops doing their jobs, if you recall those two Boarder Patrol Officers serving time in Texas because some dumb-a$# jury thought shooting and a fleeing SUV which tried to run them over (one round hit a pregnant illegal alien in the back of the SUV) was bad - now because of the restraint they are forced to use (to avoid going to jail for doing their job) one Border Patrol Officer got run over and killed in Southern California today.  We've written and passed the laws, I don't see why we insist on meddling with them while they're working to enforce them... -T [/rant]

[RJ]

Ed & Jerry -

I've used E-code headlamps since I first got my driver's license in the mid-60's.  Marchal, Hella, Maranella, Cibie, all major European manufacturers, I've tried them all.

I have NEVER, in over 40 years, been stopped for my headlights being "too bright".

When E-codes are adjusted per the manufacturer's specifications (which are included in every box), there is virtually NO GLARE towards oncoming traffic when on low beam.  Because there's virtually no glare, they're not offensive to oncoming traffic.

I know that statement is hard to believe, however, Tim, TomCat and Chris Christiansen will all back me up.  And until you've actually experienced E-code headlamps, you'll have no comprehension about how good they really are.

Now, OTOH, when you flip them up onto high beam, that's a whole different story, because they'll virtually light up the next county, and yes, they become VERY offensive to oncoming traffic.  Obviously, that will get law enforcement's attention. 


Ed - your son's friend's being pulled over was probably because he was running with his high beams on inappropriately, and that's why he got stopped initially.

Was that the fault of the headlights themselves?

Hardly. . .

It's called "driver error".  Big time, in this case, because he got a DUI out of it, which, of course, means he shouldn't have been behind the wheel at all in the first place.  Be thankful the phone call you received at two AM was from your son, and not the coronor's office. . .


Jerry -  I'll agree that there are a lot of aftermarket lights out there that should be off-road only.  Even the new HID lights exhibit a lot of the problems that the non-spec aftermarket stuff does, and it's all related to the lousy US-code light patterns.

Wander out to any vehicle, and take a real close look at the headlights.  Not the bulb and the reflector, but the front glass/lens.  Look carefully at the fluting (or lack of) that controls the light pattern, and you'll begin to understand what I'm talking about. 

If you hold an E-code Cibie up next to a US-code Sylvania, GE, or any other brand, you'll see a HUGE difference in the quality of the lens.  That's one of the main reasons the E-codes are such a better light - the optics of the lens are precision-ground to precisely focus the light output.  Between that and the E-code for cut-off and rise, and you've got a lamp that's well worth the money if you do a lot of night driving.


With my years of experience with the different brands of E-codes, IMHO Cibie's are the best.  Not the least expensive, but then again:  "What price SAFETY??"

FWIW & HTH. . .

[Jeremy]

A similar issue but not a glare causing issue that miffs me is those car manufacturers who have the lit dash board - this apparently confuses some morons into thinking they have turned on their headlights!!! 

My Lexus has a dashboard that is permanently lit, and I admit that a couple of times I have found myself being flashed by other motorists because the lights weren't turned on when they should have been - it is something I pay special attention to now when driving that car, although to be fair I'm not entirely sure that making the mistake in the past qualifies me as a moron - it's a very easy mistake to make when it begins to get dark as you are driving, and you are on a lit road so you don't actually 'need' your lights on to drive, but nonetheless 'should' have them on as a courtesy to other traffic. Many cars now have lights that come on automatically when it gets dark, which I suppose is the obvious solution.

Incidentally, all this talk of Euro-spec lights causing glare / blinding is a bit odd - obviously it isn't the light's fault as if it were they wouldn't be allowed here either - it might be significant though that getting your 'headlight aim' checked and adjusted annually is a legal requirement here. Many cars also have the provision for the driver to manually adjust the aim of the lights from the dashboard to counteract the effect of a heavy load in the trunk of the car causing the nose to point upwards slightly. Again, some cars do this automatically.

Jeremy

[Paladin]

Mine are Hella's and not street legal and I don't care as long as I don't blind people.

-Dave

[rv_safetyman]

Boy, I was afraid that this thread was really going to degrade, but it seems to be back on track again.

Perhaps the problem here is that folks like Cibie do make lights that are designed to only be used off road.  We have all seen the large lights mounted on the racks on the top of some four wheel drives.  They usually have the covers over the lights.  Some folks are only familiar with this part of their product line.

There are also folks selling very high wattage replacement H4 type bulbs.

These are not what we have been talking about.  The Cibie lights we are talking about are normal wattage units with superior optical qualities. 

There is a myriad of types of headlights, with a very large difference in lighting capability and application design.

Before you group all bright headlights into one bunch, please take the time to go through all of the data at:  http://www.danielsternlighting.com/.  On this site, Daniel Stern has a huge amount of great information about headlight options and does address the NHTSA issues.

As has been said by many folks on the various threads, you can have much better headlight technology and not offend oncoming drivers.

Jim

[Kristinsgrandpa]

The deputy that arrested my friend admitted two things, one was that he just barely over the limit (Ohio's is very, very low) and two that if it had been a local boy he would have let him go free.

Now in one sentence you tell how bad the boy was for having a couple of beers, that's really bad and dangerous.

Then in the next you proudly proclaim that you are using illegal/ dangerous/blinding headlights.

I think that is being two faced.

The alcohol limit is different from one person to the next just the same as light sensitivity is different from one person to the next.
How do you know your headlights aren't blinding someone if you are behind the steering wheel?

A lot of times I have to hold my hand up to block the lights so I can see the road. My thought are, where is a cop when you need one?

The law prohibits those headlights to prevent such dangerous situations.

  The cops (OSHP) in Ohio only write tickets for speeding and DUI, its a tax collection method and big business, the judge get his share and his brother-in-law runs the mandantory DUI school.

I've been stopped for illegal mudflaps on my dump truck and was told "there is no big rush, just get them fixed in a week or so". They don't want to waste their time on a low bucks ticket.

Headlight strength and aim is strictly spelled out in the website I mentioned in my first post.

Don't be self ritcheous with me. If you are going to obey the law, obey the law.

Ed

[Paladin]

[Sojourner]

Thank you all, as well as the Daniel's link
.
Great report about what USA is lacking for a better standard that needs to be updated.

FWIW....However, it must enforce the height requirement standard of all vehicles on street & federal highways to be the 60mm (23.6") and equipped with automatic beam leveling (dynamic headlamp leveling)
. 
I believe that police vehicle should be equipped with "glare density" meters as well as speed detectors to be able increase safety & comfort driving after dark.

Also have DOT to mandate "silver" reflector tape across top of low profile vehicle's windshield to help warn oncoming vehicle to dim your lights.

Have DOT to equip vehicles with a larger "Bright" light with alarm warning that comes on via photo sensor equipment. In other words, whenever an oncoming vehicle approaches with a reasonable candle power sensitivity setting...it will be flashing a bigger red "Bright Light" indicator and sound or equipment to go dim automatically like older Cadillacs.

The General Motors prototype cars that I worked on has Head-Up-Display. It works well and within eye view at all times. Read speed, odometer, fuel and all other gauges on back of windshield. Having said that, have "Bright" flashing and larger than normal indicator to get our attention. Also it can be any color as well, but usually either green or blue.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ,
Jerry

[Lin]

I can see your complaint about what you feel is selective enforcement of the law.  However, I would be more likely to criticize the deputy for allowing some drunk drivers to drive on than I would about ticketing one.  I have found that everyone that gets caught drinking illegally only had "a couple" of beers or drinks.  Two drink is the magic number.  Also, it is always the first time they have ever done it.  Let us hope that your son's friend learns a lesson and does not drive drunk anymore.  I have known many that never learned, ruined their lives, killed others, and still drink. 

As far as using illegal headlights goes, I am not comfortable with it.  I know of some other traffic laws that I believe should not apply to me but should be in place to protect me from others.  After all, I can tell if it is safe to make a left turn regardless of what the sign says.  You can see where that could go.

[jackhartjr]

Ed, what is the limit in OH?  I was thinking most states are now .08.

(Not trying to flame this at all, just curious abiut the DWI limit in OH?)
Thanks
Jack

[Tim Strommen]

...it is something I pay special attention to now when driving that car, although to be fair I'm not entirely sure that making the mistake in the past qualifies me as a moron...

Perhaps I was too harsh, and should have elaborated...  No, I do not think doing it once when you first get the car, and then learning from it qualifies you as a moron.

However...  In California, since I commute the same way every day at about the same time, I see a lot of repeat offenders - mostly Honda Accord drivers, and Mercedes [any model] drivers.  I see a lot of BMW drivers who are driving with their high beams on with one burned out low beam.

...Look carefully at the fluting (or lack of) that controls the light pattern, and you'll begin to understand what I'm talking about...

Not dissagreeing with this whole post, merely pointing out caution again with over eager grouping - "Free-form reflector" optics are also capable of producing glare free beam patterns only without the light loss of diffractive lens optics (and thus are typically higher efficiency than the complex lens type).  These light fixtures however also suffer from the same detrimental effects of having a thin coating of road grime diffusing the light (scattering it), which reduces long range vision and increases the point intensity of th efixture for on-coming traffic (glare is usually caused by a very high contrast ratio, which is too difficult for the eye to compensate for, so the eye tries to protect itself by reducing the light input to a safe level for the rods and cones to handle - thereby "blinding" the subject).

...As far as using illegal headlights goes, I am not comfortable with it.  I know of some other traffic laws that I believe should not apply to me but should be in place to protect me from others...

I agree, I can drive >120MPH safely in just about any car (given the right tires, etc. and I've had the chance to do so in some very sexy cars on a track ) - but there are people who are "unsafe at any speed" (i.e. they will run into parked cars because they thought they had the right of way... ).  I do advocate however, that instead of saying "I don't want anyone to use headlight assemblies from another governing body that do not bear the marking of our governing body" (ECE as opposed to DOT in this case), that they may be a viable technological advance if it was pushed through our governing body (and they are already consideing it).

Cheers!

-Tim