OLYMPIAN Wave 6 ?

[oldmansax]

"Fahrenheit 451"  was a book before it was a movie. Kurt Vonnegurt (sp?) was the author maybe?

I read the book, didn't get to the movie.

Now we are officially off topic!   

[Dallas]

Ray Bradbury was the Author

And we stray from the topic path a bit further....

[gus]

I've used two portable "Little Buddy" heaters from Camping World for the two years we've owned our 4104 and never had any of the condensation or oxygen or CO problems so often mentioned by the henny pennys on the board.

They will run at medium heat on a one lb LP bottle for about three hours. I got tired of this and rigged two 20 lb bottles in a rear bay with a hose going up through the floor, works great.

They make the bus nice and cozy and we never use more than one at a time.

Of course my bus is nowhere near air tight so I don't worry about CO; anyway, the heaters have a sensor for low oxygen which will make them shut off automatically. This feature also keeps them from operating at high altitudes but this is not a problem for us.

[JohnEd]

Red,

Its OK to contradict me any time you have the opportunity....really.  Being wrong and found out has the silver lining that you learn about the fact....soooooo.  Keep on keeping on and share on and argue on

happily,

John

[captain ron]

I have used a ventless propane heater in both of my buses and the only dislike was the condensation. If only used as a weekend camping trip it will probably not be a problem but if used full time I see it being a real problem. The condensation starts on the windows and behind your walls and ceiling and may not show up for a week then you will notice water stains or drips so yes it does hurt your bus and can ruin your fabrics or wood work.

[DavidInWilmNC]

I wonder if a small heater like this would put out more moisture than, say, 45 passengers on a longish trip.  Granted, when the compressor's on, the humidity will be controlled but not when just the heat is on.  MCI had it's heat (and A/C) supply ducted to blow out across the windows.  In winter, even non-dehumidified heated air will keep windows somewhat condensation-free. 

This is not directly related to the Olympian heater, but I have a dehumidifier that's going to be installed in my bus.  If humidity is an issue from a heater, I know it'll be a problem from cooking and showering.  Running a 10K BTU ventless heater (blue flame type) and the dehumidifier might work fine when on limited power (20-30 amps) and it's cold enough that my heatpump isn't putting out much heat.  Of course, there'll still need to be the fresh air supply.

David

[John Z]

You bring up a good question David. What percentage of propane is water? Just a guess, but i doubt it is more than a couple percent. The heaters don't make water, the moisture is only the portion of propane that can't be burned. My blue flame heater uses so little propane, that the moisture from the heater is not a problem. The moisture given off by two adults breathing is more of a problem. And of course cooking and showering put a lot of moisture into the air. I often wonder if unvented heaters really put out that much moisture. Perhaps it is just the lack of the drying effect from the vented furnaces that we are missing?

[buddydawg]

Ok, it is time for a chemistry lesson.

The chemical reaction for the oxidation of propane is as follows:

C₃H₈ + 5 O₂ --> 3 CO₂ + 4 H₂O

If the process is 100% efficient the propane breaks down into CO₂ and Water.  As there is no such thing as 100% efficiency other chemicals such as CO are also released plus any other impurities that exist in your gas source.  When you burn hydrocarbons (C_nH_2n+2) water is going to be a byproduct and you actually produce allot.  4 water molecules for every propane molecule consumed.  The moisture is there so be prepared to deal with the issues that arise.

Also, do not forget that CO₂ is every bit as deadly as CO. Please ventilate.

[John Z]

It just amazes me that people are not dropping like flies this holiday time of the year from using those unvented gas ovens with their huge burners cooking turkeys. Whether you use vented or unvented gas heaters, or electric heat; moisture is going to be a problem in the small area of a bus. What i would like to have is a 12v air to air heat exchanger so i could bring in fresh air - exhaust moist air - but keep most of my heat from going out the vent. Whaddya think Nick? Are you ready to go into production on this?

[Lee Bradley]

Ok, it is time for a chemistry lesson.

The chemical reaction for the oxidation of propane is as follows:

C₃H₈ + 5 O₂ --> 3 CO₂ + 4 H₂O

If the process is 100% efficient the propane breaks down into CO₂ and Water.  As there is no such thing as 100% efficiency other chemicals such as CO are also released plus any other impurities that exist in your gas source.  When you burn hydrocarbons (C_nH_2n+2) water is going to be a byproduct and you actually produce allot.  4 water molecules for every propane molecule consumed.  The moisture is there so be prepared to deal with the issues that arise.

Also, do not forget that CO₂ is every bit as deadly as CO. Please ventilate.

The current threshold limit value (TLV) or maximum level of CO2, that is considered safe for healthy adults for an eight-hour work day is 0.5% (5,000 ppm).
The current threshold limit value (TLV) or maximum level of CO, that is considered safe for healthy adults  long-term workplace exposure levels to 35 ppm.
I would say that carbon monoxide is much more deadly than carbon dioxide.
An open propane flame, is in ovens, produces very little CO. It is incomplete combustion, restricted air intake stoves, charcoal, engines, that produce CO and kills people.

[JohnEd]

I was once told that a rule of thumb was that "if a flame touches metal....CO will be the result in some quantity".  Ovens would seem to fit that.  The ceramic heaters get around any metal. 

Granny used to have a gas heater in the LR that had ceramic perforated waffles in the front over the flame.  That puppy would drive you out of the house with heat.  Remember those 12 foot ceilings?  They were supposed to be healthy.  Maybe we needed that much air in the room back then and those houses were anything but hermetically sealed.

You guys have given me a great idea for my fireplace.  I recently installed a gas line and valve.

Thanks,

John

[captain ron]

I don't understand why you guys don't believe me when I say they pu out a considerable amount of moisture. I have personally experienced it.

[Reddog]

 I think different climates vary greatly as far as moisture and condensation goes. Back in Texas, condensation would roll down your tea glass. Here in Colorado, they never have any moisture on the glass. If the air is dry and there are only reasonable amouts of water released by the heater, it may never condense on the glass. Overall tightness of the vehicle is a big consideration as well. Thomas has lots of windows (read:air leaks) ans the humidity here is very low, the moisture released by the heater would most likely not be a problem. Thanks for all the input, lots of good info.
Doug Engel, Gunnsion, CO

[rubberfeet]

Up here in BC Canada catalytic heaters are not permitted in RV's.We have approximately 20% oxygen in the atmosphere.At 18% you feel light headed and at 16% your are dead.The oxygen sensor can go out of calibration and lead to fatal results.Moisture is not the main concern.Check with your local gas codes.I have worked in the Gas industry for 32 years and would not put one in my coach.Safety before it works for me.

[JackConrad]

I can tell you that down here in humid Florida, if we run a small electric space heater to take away the chill there is very little condensation, but if we turn on the gas cooktop (to cook OR to heat) that water is running off the single pane windows.  Jack