Need advice on welding inside an RTS

[Kevin Warnock]

My 1994 RTS is gutted and ready for interior work. I was considering learning to weld, and watched a lot of training videos on expertvillage.com last night. It doesn't look hard, but the videos didn't tell you how to decide what kind of welding to use for different situations. I got the impression welding stainless is more tricky than plain steel... is that true? I was planning to perhaps weld some framing for the bathroom, rather than use 2 x 4s. So, my welding would not be critical to the bus - I'm not going to be welding the engine mounts or anything dramatic like that. I was also thinking about welding some mounts for the outside part of the mini-split air conditioner, which I was planning to mount in the front stairwell. I am sealing off the front door with silicone, but leaving the original door. This sealing will stop the huge wind noise I hope. The back door will be the entrance to the bus, and all the windows will be left intact, except for behind the fridge, so there will be many emergency escape routes for the driver and passengers, even without a front door. I will build a platform to the right of the driver the same height as the driver's platform. I would love to weld that too, to give the passenger seat a solid footing that could withstand the seat belt stress in a possible crash. I was going to cut out the front stairs and place the mini-split outside part under the platform. Do you think that will be enough airflow around the unit? There will be no side air flow, but the entire front of the coach will be open on the bottom, so I hope that's enough airflow. If not, I hope to use a fan, as I don't want to put any holes in the outside of the bus, as I am going for a completely stock look that won't be identifiable as a bus conversion.

What welder would you recommend? I have a 50 amp 220V dryer outlet in my garage, so I have 220 easily at hand. Should I get a new one, or can I get one off of Craigslist? Or should I not go with arc welding and get an oxy gas setup? How much money would I spend on gas if I do? I hear the oxy setup is better for a beginner because you can use it to cut too.

Anyway, the videos said to remove coatings before welding. Does that just mean grind it a bit first? Is all the metal in an RTS stainless? I know there are various kinds of stainless, some that will hold a magnet and some that won't. Are both kinds considered 'stainless' as far as welding is concerned?

Do I need to take a class to learn welding? Can I just try it without much danger? I have been soldering since I was about 9 years old, and I have lots of experience with dangerous tools, and I'm not scared, but should I be?

Finally, what safety gear do I need? I know about the face eye protection mask. But what about protecting my arms and legs. The guys in the videos were wearing short sleeve t-shirts, with their bare skin showing. That didn't seem wise at all. What about the smoke inside the bus? Is opening the windows enough, or do I need a respirator mask or external air supply?

What's the best place to buy welding supplies?

Thanks,

Kevin

[Reddog]

Wow, lots of questions. Reference the welding, all my internal framing is steel, and was fabricated outside the bus and screwed in place. Sounds like everything you want to weld is light gauge, which is kinda tricky, easy to burn through. If you proceed, I would use a MIG (wire feed) with flux core wire (it is a little more forgiving that a gas shield). Either way, you need to CLEAN the area to be welded of any paint, rust, oil, grease, etc. before you start welding or you will not get good results. As far as ventilation goes, for me, having the windows open would work, but I'm sure OSHA wouldn't approve.
  Something else to consider, what is behind the area you plan to weld your framing to? If there is insulation, wires, undercoating, mouse nests, etc., you could easily burn your rig down. This is a big reason we fabed outside and attached with screws. Look into steel 2x4 studs and self taping screws, you may have better results. Good Luck!
Doug Engel, Gunnsion, CO

[donnreeves]

I would buy a 120V mig welder. They are small and portable, and will weld most anything you need to do on the bus. You can weld the stainless with mild steel wire, works just fine. For what you want to do,just practice a little and you will be fine. Protective gear is good, but be prepared to get burned anyway. It's just part of the experiance.   Donn

[DavidInWilmNC]

I bought a Miller 175 (220 volt MIG) welder a few months after getting my bus.  I had to weld the square tube I was using to frame where my windows were so I could skin over them.  I'd read a couple of welding books and watched the video that came with the welder.  I set it up, put on my face mask and glove, and welded.  It wasn't real pretty, but it was decent.  I had a friend who's welded for years give me a bit more instruction.  I'd recommend that whatever you get that it be a good welder.  I'd tried to use a friends old Craftsman MIG and got nothing but little balls of metal everywhere and still no weld!  The Miller made all the difference.  I'm certainly not anywhere near as good as a lot of members here, but I appreciate having variable wire speed and voltage... some cheaper welders have a 4 or 5 position selector for some of these settings.  Another option is to take a welding class at a community college / tech. school.  I'd suggest the model I have (it came pretty highly recommended by a couple of friends) - a MillerMatic 175.  Get some scrap steel - you'll likely have plenty from the seat frames, if your bus was a seated coach when you got it.  Cut the frames up and practice welding.  I also think it's a good idea to read what you can on the principles of welding and see if you can find somebody to help you get started.

I haven't welded any interior frames for walls or anything, but I'd agree to weld 'em outside and then bring them in to attach.  I definitely wouldn't weld anything to the bus frame; I've had to remove just about everything I've installed at least once.. .and I'm nowhere close to being finished.   Probably the only thing I'm considering using metal framing for is the overhead kitchen cabinets if I mount the microwave there.  I'd bolt it to the roof framework and do it so I could cover it with standard wood face frames.  Good luck with it.

David

[Hartley]

If you are thinking about welding stainless, You will need a Gas MIG wirefeed welder.
Flux core MIG is messy and I am not aware of a flux core wire for stainless.

Most of the small Hobart or Lincoln MIG units in the $500 + range will be best as long as you don't plan on doing heavy structural work. ( Don't waste your money on anything CHEAP like Harbor Freight brand (Chicago) They are junk.

I have a Lincoln Weldpack 100 that has served me well around stainless and mild steel for years and it's a 120 volt unit, I bought the gas regulator for it and a tank at Holox. I do use flux core for quick and dirty jobs or where I need lots of nasty heat but for finish jobs and stainless I use the gas with solid core wire.

The Lincoln is now a model 120 Weldpack version and the best low end semi commercial duty would be a Hobart 135 or 180 Handler MIG setup.They take 220
to run however.

Sounds like most of your stuff is going to be mild steel tubing and a small MIG should do the trick. You don't want to know what stainless "anything" costs these days.

As for sealing the front door on an RTS, I don't think I would seal up my only escape route. Better off sealing the rear door.

Placing a mini split under the front needs a source of fresh air at all times. Unless you have a place to send the hot air it will just rise and heat the floor. You may want to rethink that part. The other factor is that unless you have a leveling system to keep the front end off the ground, There won't be much clearance with the air bags deflated, They almost sit on the ground in the full down postition. Just see how far it goes down when kneeled. That is where it will sit with no air. Not much airspace for a/c to get enough flow.

I don't know if the newer RTS with the solid front axles sit any higher than the original A-frame suspension. Mine were all A-Frame independent suspension.

Also on the subject of stainless.... You have only a couple of options for cutting that stuff. Plasma Cutter, Cutoff wheel Saw or Sawzall with lots of 24tpi blades, The last two are dangerous and messy at best. A lot of the RTS's were built from non-ferrous Stainless (non-magnetic) It's tougher to cut than normal.

Anyway, Before you start cutting, welding and sealing stuff up, You need to make a plan that is going to work that won't cause you to have to tear it all out and start over and over again.

Been there.. It's a way of life...

[HB of CJ]

My welding skills are practically non-existent.  Oh, I can buzz box kinda, but that is about it.  Never could get the hang of it.  Anyway, right now the plan is to use alumiumumummm square tubing and fabricate aluminum gussets/hangers/mounts and simply bolt the stuff together using common bolts, washers and nuts.  1974 Crown Super Coach ex-schoolie.

When and if properly engineered and done and polished to a high luster, it should work out OK and look groovy at the same time.  Kinda Art-Decto-Retro looking.  Plus, in theory, it would all connect with the floor and not the walls and could be taken down.   That plus the fact that I would not burn up the Banana Boat, which is her name. 

[jjrbus]

At some time in your conversion you will want a welder. The BIG difference between the ElCheapos and the expensive ones is duty cycle. Some are as low as 10%! The 10% means you can weld 6 minutes out of 1 hour. And for the average hobby welder that will work. The longer the duty cycle the more you will pay.
When I did my roof raise I used an ELCheapo to tack everything together on my bus and then rented a big comercial job to do all the welding. I keep some chunks of brass to back up thin work and act as a heat sink.
The wire feed welders are very easy to use. At Bussin 2000 in Arcadia they were teaching the ladies how to do it. Women seem to make very good welders, you may want to send mama off to the local adult Ed class. With 1 hour of instruction and 1 hour parctice you can do just fine.  Just dont try welding tounges on trailers at that point!!

[RTS/Daytona]

A '94 RTS almost certainly has a DDEC and ATEC computer

remove the connectors on both computers before using an electric welder

not just the battery cable

If you loss your welders ground - you could fry your EXPENSIVE computers

Pete RTS/Daytona

[boogiethecat]

I agree with all the guys that a cheap welder isn't worth trying.  A Miller 175 is wonderful as are the more prominent brands in the $500 range.  Using a junky tool in  your case will only frustrate you and though good welds can be had, it's much more difficult on the learning curve.  Get a good one!!  For Mig gas, you can spend lots of money and use the fancy mig mixes that they sell you, but just plain old CO2 works fine.  It's a little more splattery than the high priced gas mixes but the welds are good, the tank of gas lasts miles longer for a given tank size and it's cheap.  You can forgo the gas and use flux core welding wire but it's much messier than using gas and the welds aren't quite as good.  I NEVER use the stuff, I hate it actually.

If you're welding inside of your bus, the only thing I'd recommend is keeping a nice CO2 fire extinguisher near (don't use powder extinguishers or you'll make an awesome mess if you ever have to use it) and a simple spray bottle full of water is a great helper too.  Make sure your welding sparks can't hit your bus windows- they really mess up a nice piece of glass in a hurry.  I found that out the hard way by ruining one of my Crown windshields. Oop.  Mask the glass with sheetmetal, plywood or something that won't burn easily and you'll be a lot happier!
  I welded tons of stuff into the inside of my bus, and I'd do it again. There were some incidents... after I ruined the windshield with weld splatter I figured out how not to mess up anything further.  Welding near combustibles is dangerous.  I nearly burned up one of my busses when a spark went down a defroster vent and caught the hose inside on fire. So be CAREFUL if you're welding inside, but don't be scared of doing so.  If you can have a "watcher" help you out, all the better.  The CO2 extinguisher has come in handy for me more than once, but nothing was ever a big deal. Be prepared for "oops's" and you'll be ok.

I wouldn't mess with trying to weld stainless.  I weld the stuff daily in my work, and unless you have the right equipment and know what you're doing, all you'll probably make is a mess.  That said, if you're not worried about it's corrosion resistant characteristics or it's aesthetic looks, you can just weld the stuff with your mig welder and steel wire and be done with it, and it'll be a good weld that's strong and happy, just not corrosion or rust resistant any more than mild steel would be.  What you'll end up with is a gradient alloy that's stainless where your original material is, steel where your weld is, and a mix inbetween.  You can paint that with primer and probably be as happy as anyone.

IF on the other hand you want to weld stainless to itself with a stainless filler and your goal is to have a nice pretty, corrosion proof joint, there are a few things you should know.  First it'd have to be done in an inert atmosphere (either argon or helium) because oxygen and hot stainless make an amazing mess. This means using a Tig welder or at least stainless feed wire in your mig welder with pure argon as the cover gas.  Second, you'd have to also keep the backside of that weld in an inert atmosphere as well, or even though the front side looked good, the back side will be horrible since oxygen WILL get to it.  Third, and something most people don't know or think about, is that as soon as you heat stainless to welding temperatures, you have just created a melt in which the iron content of the stainless becomes evenly distributed on it's surface.  Unless that iron is subsequently removed via a process known as passivation, that area will no longer be stainless or corrosion resistant.  Ever seen a beautiful stainless tank with two little blue lines running down each side of the welds, all rusted to heck? Lack of passivation!  After you weld, you have to wire wheel or otherwise grind the surface area that was heated untill it's down to shiny metal, and then do a chemical process (passivation) in those areas to remove the surface iron, otherwise you've just ruined the corrosion resistant properties of your precious project wherever you've welded.  Passivation involves exposing the previously heated areas to an acid that will remove the iron and leave everything else (nickle and chrome mostly).  It used to require hot nitric acid to do the job but lately folks have discovered that warm citric acid does a better job, and it's basically harmless to people and the envrionment.  There are also some electrolytic methods that can be used if you can't dunk your work into a tank.
Learning to do proper passivation is a whole ball of wax on it's own.  If you want some insight, check out www.stellarsolutions.net for lots of informative info.

All of that in mind, it's best to just shy away from welding stainless unless you want to get pretty serious about doing it right, which is somewhat hasslesome but certainly doable...

SO to your questions specifically:
(1) Repeating myself and others, get a good MIG welder.  Miller 175, or another similar from a decent manufacturer.  Don't mess with oxy acetylene gas welding, it's obsolete. IF you're going to do a lot of cutting (or even just some) get a plasma cutter. That's the first tool I'd buy if doing another conversion!!
(2) "Removing coatings" means get the paint and crud off prior to welding.  The vapors from that stuff will mess up your welds and possibly mess you up too.
Garbage in = garbage out.  Clean welding surfaces make for clean welds!!
(note: If you weld on anything galvanized, breathe with a scuba tank!!! DON"T breathe the vapors or you'll hate life. Basically try to stay away from welding galvanized, or grind all the surface zinc off first in any areas you're gonna weld, then coat the welds with spray-on zinc primer when done.)
(3) Stainless comes in many forms and it's all tricky to weld, magnetic or not.  I don't know what's in your particular bus...
(4) There's no danger other than getting burned or blinding yourself if you start welding without first getting instruction.  It's not a big deal to be safe though, just go to a local welding supply, get a good set of leather gloves, perhaps a leather jacket, and a good welding helmet.  Spend the money and get a decent electronic helmet and you'll never have to worry about your eyes... wear the protective clothing and you won't get burned much (but you always will get burned a little)
Get some various sizes of steel, steel tubing, rod, etc and just start welding.  You'll learn quickly.  Also pay attention to the sound you make as you weld- a nice crackling sound means things are going well, and other sounds may spell disaster.  That's where a short lesson first may be a good idea... it doesn't take much to learn what's right and what's wrong.  Your local welding supplier can probably either show how or find someone that can give you a short lesson... it'd be worth it.
(5) Smoke of any kind isn't good to breathe, period.  External breathing air systems are nifty but just being sensible and using a fan with good ventilation (ie position the fan and yourself so  you're always upwind of the smoke) and you'll be fine.

Welding supplies? just look up any good welding shop and they will have everything you need. They're everywhere...

Be safe, have fun, it's easy and you'll love doing it!!!

[Sojourner]

Very well informative "boogiethecat" post in regard about welding. As well all previous posts.

Practice & practice on scrap is always a wise to know how strong your weld is.

Might add few more safety things:

1)   Most important that you not only have a working CO2 extinguisher on stand by.....have a metal pail of water with shop rag in it to cool red hot dropping. Wrap wet rag around near by welding area to keep metal from transferring unwanted heat to wood, wiring & plastic. You can use hose w/spray nozzle or/and portable pressure (hand-air-pump) bottle w/water.
2)   Unless your welding area is clear of combustibles from sparks & hot dropping. Momentary stop welding to spot check for burning grass or whatever. Many times I was unaware burning with hood on.
3)   After done welding for the a while or before leaving the welding project.....its best to always wait & look & smell for glowing burning rag or whatever or better yet remove burnt material to be place in metal outdoor container...so you be more assure that it not going rekindle unwanted fire later while you're away from there.

If you have tremor problem...forget welding. Steady "handling or calm" welding motion along with keeping arcing closest to molten metal and side to side motion to flow evenly.

Avoid welding "2x4" metal stud for fastening unless spot weld hold to screw or bolt onto. Weld bead (unless you can weld very small bead) is too strong on thin metal that will crack after few flex movement. Screw-on is better for the long run. However if you want to weld onto bus frame...use at least ⅛" thick angle or flat iron so that weld joint is equally stress hold. Tubing can be thinner than ⅛".

SS MIG wire cost 4 to 5 times more than mild steel wire. Use 309 for welding SS to mild steel.

Caution...never buy "open" box of steel MIG wire......it usually moisture damage so it will have conductor problem in holder or gun as well wire feeding thorough the casing. It should keep in dry storage place and sealed wrapper from the box.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry with 30 years of tremor-ing.

[Hartley]

Kinda makes me think that to be a bus nut you have to know how to weld..

I at times wonder if it's the bus that is the big deal or all the neat tools that you collect and learn how to use.. I think I would vote for the tools myself..

[Chaz]

Boogie is right on the money and Sojourner had a couple good tips too.
My only disagreement is the plasma cutter. I have had several and wouldn't be without one, but, I don't know as I would buy one to do a bus conversion. They throw around an incredible amout of sparks and can make a mess doing it. Let alone fire. Conventional sawing or cutting would be my choice as there is less clean up and usually more precision. But if it is heavier aluminum or stainless, yeah, get a plasma. But they are not cheap either. And the consumables can get expensive if you use it allot.
  And Boogie couldn't be more right about the galvanize!!! I have personal experience here. Sucks bad!!!
  By the way, I bleed blue. Translation- I'm a Miller man. But, any of the big three are good. (Miller actually owns Hobart) Just stay Away from the junk welders or you will be buying a good one sooner than you want. Heck, find a good used one. It isn't that tough. Some welding suppliers can sometimes get you one. At least my guys have helped out friends of mine.
  Be safe.  ( experience again. I've been on fire a time or two too!  ) A partner around helps with that.

   If you weld, you can build anything,
        Chaz

   

[bobsw]

Just one other safety tip. Do not wear tennis shoes. It may be great entertainment for anyone watching you try to get the shoe off with a glob of hot metal burning  through the top of your foot but it hurts.

[HB of CJ]

Hey Gary....long time, no hear.  You still bottling up and $selling$ your expertise, attitude, experience, desire and all that stuff?  If soossss....I want to $buy$ some.  Especially the Crown Super Coach Conversion type stuff.  Name your price!  I'm in a buying kind of mood.  He he he.

boggiethecat is a rocket scientist.  I know if his welding was tried on my coach conversion, the result would probably be a big fire and a gutted Crown.  Sosss...the plan (still a plan right now) is to use common fasteners and simply bolt everything together with the inside stuff (hopefully)....

...tied to the floor and not the walls.  The engineering sketches and math looks pretty good.  My problem is that the chassis stuff needs to be welded and not bolted.  We have talked about this before.  Perhaps I need to attend (another!) welding class at the local high school. 

[Chris 85 RTS]

You are configuring your RTS exactly how I have done mine already.  We need to talk.  I also did a fair amount of welding on the RTS, both to steel and stainless with no special stuff and great results.  Please contact me directly at cpeters1 at cfl dot rr dot com