"product liability"

[Jerry Liebler]

I'm curious what anyone knows about potential product liability a DIY bus converter may face by selling a poorly done conversion.  Another thread about hooking up an SW4024 inverter prompts me to ask, as does a poster on another board who recently bought a 4107 which has many serious safety issues in it's wiring.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120

[Hartley]

Product liability usually only applies to an item or product that is sold and or installed by a business. Over the years that I sold the old 12 foot satellite dishes I had to carry product liability insurance because another dealer got sued by a homeowner because he didn't warn or put warnings in writing so if the buyer ran into his dish on a riding mower and got hurt.

Home grown bus conversions sold by an individual would be considered a "custom" job which is not done professionally and sold that way. Unless the seller warranted his work in writing there probably would not be a liability issue. That doesn't count for blatant breaking of all rules over electrical, gas or plumbing. Everyone should follow the accepted standards whenever possible if for nothing else than peace of mind.

But as with everything else, There can be issues of liability. It is up to the person asking the question to validate whether the opinions accepted are safe or unsafe or if instructions are provided are safe or unsafe. The person giving that opinion should not generally be assumed to be liable to the end user of that opinion...

You don't take a curve at 100 mph in a 20 ton Bus when the sign says 30 mph..You could get hurt, killed or kill someone else. If you do, Then only you are liable, Not the guy who made the sign....or road....

Maybe someone with more legal experience with liability could explain in finer detail???

[Dallas]

That's why it's sold "As Is"

That piece of paper that you see on used cars that states whether there is a warrantee or not is not just for fun.... the majority state, "Sold As Is"

The rules for private vehicle sales are a little different, but essentially, if you sell it "as is" it's Buyer Beware!"

Here's a link that is kind of hard to get around in, but it will give you some idea.

http://www.carlemon.com/

I will guarantee whatever I sell to work to the extent I advertise or portray it as, but no farther. That's why any thing I sell is sold "as is, what you see is what you get, no warrantee expressed or implied."
any Bill of sale I provide states exactly that. The buyer must sign that or I will not complete the sale.

Is it dishonest? I don't think so. I do not promise anything that the merchandise will not deliver. I will not lie to a customer. I don't even varnish over the truth.

I have had customers come back at me because I wouldn't give them back their money on eBay because they couldn't read the part in big red letters that says, NO WARRANTEE SOLD AS IS! What You See is What you get.

If you are going to sell a vehicle, you have to cover you behind, or you may leave yourself open to a world of hurt.

Dallas

[white-eagle]

Any lawyer can find a reason that the seller is liable or that the fault was anything but the client who pays the fees to him.  good lawyers won't get involved in such frivolous suits, but there are many hungry or greedy lawyers.  that's why most insurance companies seem to settle rather than argue.

using the mentioned road curve example, i'm sure some lawyer could point out the state knew a risk and should have put sand on the road like they use in truck runaway ramps, so that the driver couldn't go faster than 30mph.  most of us reasonable folk understand it's our responsibility to slow down when we see the sign.

We not only have to carry insurance, but we even have to prove it at every show we go to and put their name on some sort of "named insured" paper.  keeps them from getting sued also i guess.

i agree with Dallas.  unless you bought your coach from someone like Marathon, you pretty much bought as-is.
good luck.

happy Thanksgiving all!!

[bobofthenorth]

I'll be the contrarian in this discussion.  My understanding of liability is that it flows to the deepest pockets.  If you are worth suing then plan to get sued.  If it isn't worth suing you then you are probably lawsuit proof.  No matter how many waivers you get the buyer to sign and how many times you tell him that it is sold "as is, where is", when the rubber hits the road (or the liar hits the court), if its worthwhile to sue you then you'll likely get sued.

[lostagain]

In Canada, the defendant would have to be proven negligent to be liable for any wrong. You can't just go around sueing people just because they appear to have money. I don't think you'd be very successful going after a private seller after signing under the "As is, where is" line.

[JohnEd]

Jerry,

It is the same in the USA.  Friv. law suits are thrown out and if they aren't, a jury takes care of the problem.  The people that are often sued, rightfully so, are the deep pockets that are tireless in their campaign to have Tort Law reformed to eliminate Tort Law.  "Award limits" is a favorite cry but those outlandish awards have always been granted where unconscionable abuses and corrupt practices have been proved.  As a conservative I want the functioning system maintained and available to me and mine and I resist any dramatic changes that the liberals might cheer on.  For all of us now, really.

Thanks Jerry,

John

[Tony LEE]

Any DIYer that makes any structural alterations to a vehicle or modifies any DOT mandated systems or components without then getting it approved by an appropriate authority or engineer would I imagine, be right in the firing line if anything happened that could be remotely attributed to the unauthorised work.  As is, where is or similar disclaimers won't carry much weight.

[mak]

My experience is you can sell anything to anybody, they can inspect, test drive, keep for years and then sue you. The sold "as is where is" seems to offer little protection for a seller. Sure you can argue it was sold "as is where is" but... the buyer can sue you and it will end up costing the seller money. Not fair, not honest, but very very true. Happens to me often. The other great benefit the buyer has is the BBB (Better Business).  The BBB also does not honor the sold "as is where is" clause. Again, you buy a bus "as is where is", keep it for a year or two, then file a claim with the BBB. The seller is force to refund money, take a neg feedback or both, from the BBB.   You never hear about the happy, content and satisfied customer, only the ones that buy "as is" and then sue. In CA, which offers no cooling off period for vehicle purchases,  small court judges see the buy "as is where is" clause as a way to split the claims 50/50. So the seller loses... Their is only one solution, that is for the buyer to be responiable for their purchase, which many do not want to do in this time of blame everyone but oneself.  So, did I vent myself well? So, sold "as is where is" means... buyer beware, buy, find a fault and then sue. It has become the American way.

[cody]

I agree with Bob, the deepest pockets will fell the first impact of any court action,  right or wrong, that seems to be the way it is, I was involved in law enforcement for most of my life and learned early on to never try to second guess the courts.  Many operations have learned that it's often easier and cheaper to "settle out of court" than to go to the expence and time of a court case, this has taught many slightly dishonest people and lawyers that even the most unwinable cases might produce some money for them if they try.

[lyndon]

Another deep-pocket trick is the wear down the plaintiff. I once abandoned a suit against a dealership (and Ford, ultimately) over a "hidden warranty" frame issue after the lawyers had managed to bill for the value of the claim with no end in sight. A hearing here, phone calls there, another hearing, now Ford lawyers want in, so another hearing, more billing, yikes! I had to cut my losses and throw in the towel.

At the end of the day, combined legal fees were probably 3x the claim, so we all lost. But the dealership and Ford were able to salvage their fine reputations by keeping a very "winnable" lawsuit out of court.

Don

[JohnEd]

Cody,

You are correct in my experience.  A judge will let a almost patently frivolous law suit be heard so a jury can hear and decide.  If it gets to court the injured party almost always get "something" in damages if it is pr oven.  Problem is the court costs are so high, including Attorney fees, that you have to be risking many thousands to justify not offering a settlement.  One in four of those Personal Injury Attorneys I associated with for years was employed by insurance companies.  trust me on this, they did not hate each other and actually got on swimmingly.  Seems that both groups hated the opportunistic rabble that filed frivolous lawsuits to get the settlement money.  The insurance guys, because they saw the thing as dishonest and the private practice guys because it seems the public can't distinguish between a crook and an honest man where a fee is involved.  Both groups felt like victims.  Add MAK and you have the defendant on that list so three out of four are unhappy players.  Ask youself this:  Just how bad must the alternative be for this to be our system in a DEMOCRACY?  What is the alternative?  How long has this been the "SYSTEM OF CHOICE" as the lesser evils?  These are honest questions on my part and I would really appreciate any sage explanations.

MAK,

I am more sympathetic to your plight than you will ever know.  Through no fault of your own you are saddled with this system of inequities and unfair burden.  You must be an honest and generous man to have achieved a station of respect and affection by so many people and then the most corrupt of forces can cast you as a villain.  That is a flawed system.  I would ask that you not throw the baby out with the bath water, though.  There must be a solution that would satisfy you and still offer the public the protection from charlatans that it needs.  The PI has at his fingertips the number of actionable cases that are walked away from by people because they don't want to be seen as "one of those" that would bring a suit.  Many more just drop the case AFTER filing because the system is adversarial and it leaves a bad taste in their mouth even before they take a serious bite.  If you believe the PI's, the streets are awash with the blood of "innocent victims" and I think the truth is somewhere this side of that.  I don't know what the answer is but I know that if the system can't protect you from this it should compensate you somehow.  It is my wish that you not suffer from being cast in the same light as that of the few dishonest and unscrupulous.  

In the last five years how many cases have been brought against you and what has been the total judgements against you?  Normally I would consider that an impertinent question but under the circumstance I will ask.  I don't see where I or any have a "right" to any answer other than 'I decline" and that with no prejudice.

Thanks, and very respectfully and with gratitude,

John

[JohnEd]

Don,

If you are ever faced with this sort of thing again....shop your case around to various law firms and see who will take your case on "contingency".  That separates the men from the boys.  If it is a slam dunk you will have some offers to represent and the fees will vary.   Some for 30% and some for 40% and if it is really good and the plaintiff is loaded and really off the reservation you will hear 20% and all those prices are negotiable.  It takes years!  The defendant AND the attorneys see to that for different reasons.  The larger the potential award, the better your case and the depth of the pockets you are reaching into will determine how "obstructionist" the defendant will be.  Never forget that their objective is to stretch this out till you are dead from natural causes.  If you are not a BIG DOG it is foolish to get off of the porch.  Let your dog decide if it should give chase.  It would be foolish of me to suggest that you take the advice of every attorney you talk to but there might be a consensus and Kenny Rogers and "The Gambler" comes to mind.

I know I didn't solve any problem here but please read into this that I have sympathy for you.

John

[lyndon]

Don,

If you are ever faced with this sort of thing again....shop your case around to various law firms and see who will take your case on "contingency".  That separates the men from the boys.

Thanks for the advice John. As a matter of fact, I am facing this sort of thing again but have become entirely gun shy after the previous experience (about 20 years ago). The amount of the claim is only around $2500 -- small claims territory -- but the jurisdiction is across the country.

In a nutshell, I bought my bus from an auto dealership with the promise that it would be delivered safety inspected and serviced. We flew 2800 miles to discover neither was true. They are trying to "as is" thing, then ok but you'll have to wait around 2 weeks. We finally took delivery just to cut losses (flights, accommodation, etc.) and paid over $2K to complete a the safety here. Now we get the silent treatment.

So we're considering the options; none are pretty. (But we are happy with the bus! Just paid too much.)

[JohnEd]

Don,

Some states allow you to assign representation to another.  Bus. never are represented by the owner and often it falls to a secretary to stand and deliver the prepared data.  Look into the possibility of having one of us make your court appearance with the data you provide.  If the dealer is a "no show" you win and then it gets interesting and we will all learn about the collection process.  I would do it if its in Eugene or Salem, Or.  Try us.  Might cost you some gas money, though. (see if thats legal)

Aren't you worried that you will be branded as one of "those people"?

Good luck on this and all,

John