More poor engineering: replacing water pump on a Dina

[TomCat]

Does anybody besides Napa carry those Gates Powergrip SB clamps?  There are a dozen or more Napa stores locally and between all of them they had three of the 2.5" size in stock.

NAPA should be able to get anything they sell in stock with one day notice.

Jay
87 SaftLiner

[kyle4501]

Sure, some things are a PIA to replace (ever work on an old tractor?  ), but to summarize a difficult job as 'poor engineering' . . . . 

I'm having a hard time understanding your thinking. If you think the engineering is so poor, Why keep the darn thing? Or do you think some of the engineering was good?

How convenient to have it both ways. It's all to easy to criticise when you don't know the facts.


As someone involved with the design of machines for a living, I have a few observations.

It is amazing the volume of things that influence the final design decisions, & how some of the most trivial things can have the biggest impact.
(It is also amazing how stupid some in the design process are - including sales, marketing, engineering, management, customers, etc.)

It often seems that sales & marketing couldn't care less about service after the warranty period. Maybe it is beacuse customers are seldom interested in paying more for better design, all they focus on is the price & how to get it lower.
When I want to make something easier to service, the first question is "how much $$". That is usually followed with "the customer didn't pay enough for that".

If we were to give away features (when they weren't paid for), then my company would soon be bankrupt & I'd be out of a job.


Are we much different? Look at the success of walmart from offering the lowest price (often quality is the first to be sacrificed).

The simple fact that the water pump was replaceable just may be due to a great engineering effort given the criteria & existing parts they had to work with.

If any consider some of this is harsh, take a look at the thread subject line.

The bottom line is that most often, things are engineered for the warranty period to the initial purchaser. After all, that is who paid for it.

[Busted Knuckle]

Does anybody besides NAPA carry those Gates Powergrip SB clamps?  There are a dozen or more NAPA stores locally and between all of them they had three of the 2.5" size in stock.

I don't know who all distributes them, but I do know here in Podunk middle of nowhere BFE TN/KY my NAPA only stocks 1 or 2 sizes also. But if I call them before 9:30-10:00 AM they have just about anything I order! Now being in a big ol' metropolitan area like the Twin Cities, I'll bet you that there is one honk'n big ol' NAPA warehouse/distribution center! I'll also bet that if you go to that distribution center you find a walk in parts counter where you can buy what yer after right then and there no waiting! FWIW!  The other option is to go to Gates website and use the contact us feature and ask them who all are registered distributors for the POWER GRIP CLAMPS! BK

[Gary '79 5C]

Kyle4501,

I see you own a bus which was designed, I believe to haul more packages & passengers, with a newly engineered driveline.

Looks like GM Poor marketing/engineering missed the mark. Also screwed up customer relations as well.

So new and revolutionary that Greyhound subsequently Stopped purchasing GM buses and purchased MCI company in total.

I enjoyed your comments in light of your 4901.
IMHO, your bus is still the greatest oldie of all time.
Belfert, you will get thru this and be better for it later. Couple of obsene yells, couple beers, couple of busted knuckes and you will be there.

Gary

[tekebird]

Gary, not sure where you got the 4901 from. Kyle has 4501's ( the 4901 was a prototype One off unit)

and as a matter of Fact, Greyhound stopped buying GM coaches as a result of Anti Trust Litigation.  They then went to Mack to have them develope a bus for them...and after studying that while under lease then then bought MCI and incorporated alot of the mack design features.

This is evidenced in the MC-6 which was the first MCI designed after Greyhound bought MCI.

GM Left the coach business many years after Greyhound stopped buying them...as well as Trailways ( trailways Bought Bus and Car the maker of Eagles)

For some time after GM stopped producing buses many operators stated they would still buy them if still made due to their build quality and ease of Maint.

Unfortunately single and pair bus orders did not cut the mustard with the Accounting department

Greyhounds last GM purchases were Suburban fishbowls and 4107's both because MCI was not able to supply the qty of buses that Greyhound required.

[tekebird]

Interestingly enough, I was one who tried to steeer brian away from Dina's, although I have limited experience with them I know people who have had a bit more...none with anything good to say.

IIRC Brians Decision was driven by two things.

His desire to have a Series 60 and what he could afford at that time.  An MCI with a 60 would have cost at least 10k more.  With his latest cost statement he may have been a bit less in the red with an MCi purchase.

I also warned of buying a bus from the dealer he bought from, Have not heard good things from anyone I have communicated with  about them.

No Maint Records, Bus from a third rate Southern Operator ( Guessing, operator unknown) Mismatched worn out tires.

Most of this dealers buses are units MCI/Van Hool would not take in trade, with quite a few Bank Repossessed units in there too.

I know of a few operators who run Dinas still, I do not have personal contacts with them but there are not many here in the North East.  States bordering Mexico have always had a fair number of Dinas even before the Viaggio.....likely due to the number of Mexican Nationals in those states who have experience with Dinas as well as these operators running into Mexico ( makes sence to buy a bus you can get serviced in Mexico if you go there alot).......

Also IIRC the Viaggio was a cool 100k cheaper than a bare bones MCI but more of a bus than one of the Light Duty Cutaways or Schoolbus type chassis units.

[Jeremy]

Just a comment on the 'ease of servicing' thing - I recently replaced the brake pads on my Lexus and COULD NOT BELIEVE how awkward the job was compared to my Range Rover. On the Range Rover the job involves removing two large split pins and pulling the pads out of the top of the caliper. On the Lexus the entire caliper needs to be removed from the car to access the pads. In addition the wear sensor on the Range Rover is held on by a metal clip and can be reused - on the Lexus it is press-fitted into a hole in the pad and must be replaced (being made of ceramic, any attempt to press it out of the hole just makes the sensor break up). Of course a new sensor is appalingly expensive for what is (literally) just a bit of bent wire with ceramic plug moulded over the bend. In addition the wear sensor itself on the Lexus is designed to wear away against the brake disk, thus breaking a circuit and triggering a warning light - thus once it has operated you need to buy a new sensor. On the Range Rover the sensor is re-usable as it makes it's circuit by having an exposed contact which touches and thus earths itself against the disk.

Range Rovers are designed to be repaired under a tree in the desert with the minimum of tools are parts. Lexuses are designed to be repaired by highly paid technicians in well-equiped workshops using the maximum number of expensive tools and replacement parts. Poor access to parts for repairs and servicing may in fact indicate very clever design and  engineering!

Jeremy

[Gary '79 5C]

Good Morning Tekebird,
I am glad you read much better than I type, yes you are correct on the 4501.

Thanks,

I am wondering as to why Greyhound would stop buying a third party manufacturers product and purchase a competitor's company to become vertically intergrated.

The latter is what anti trust laws were out to avoid.

Really not out to bash GM, Belfert, Teke, Greyhound, et al...

Enjoy the Holiday.

Gary

P.S. the Brakes on a '99 Mercedes are not a joy to replace either, despite the German engineering. The latter has been watered down by marketing decisions lately...

[tekebird]

The GM antitrust suit was much larger than just greyhound.

GM owned National City Lines a company that ran many city bus lines.....guess what...they only bought GM's.

The choice to buy MCI was to garauntee a source of buses for themselves.  just as Trailways did with buying the manufacturer of Eagles

Both of these entities also sold to other buyers

[tekebird]

Interestign factoid but Off topic from original

prior to the roll out of the Mack MV-620 that was commissioned by Greyhound  to replace GM products

Greyhound sent a Scenicruiser  as well as a 4104 to be dismantled my the mack engineering department.

In addition Scenicruisers were repowered by several different powerplants, MACK and MAN are two I know of.

[belfert]

His desire to have a Series 60 and what he could afford at that time.  An MCI with a 60 would have cost at least 10k more.  With his latest cost statement he may have been a bit less in the red with an MCi purchase.

An MCI with Series 60 would have been a LOT more than $10k more.  At the time I had not seen a DL3 for less than double what I paid for my Dina.  Yes, I've spent a fair amount on brakes, wheel bearings, and the like, but an MCI could have had the same problems.  With the money I've spent on the shell and mechanicals I'm still not up to what a DL3 would cost.  I could probably replace the engine with a third party rebuilt and then I would be at what an MCI would cost.

I never mentioned money in this thread other than the fact a mechanic would have cost around $400 to replace the water pump.  A water pump is a routine item to replace.  I only wish it they didn't manke you remove so much stuff to replace it.

Every time I tackle one of these projects it makes me more confident to tackle the next thing.  I'm still not going to replace brakes or wheel bearings as I don't have the proper tools and skills.

[TomC]

Belfert- the actual skill to do a wheel bearing or brake job is not much.  The key hear is that those parts are heavy, you're dealing with having to safely support a very heavy vehicle while the hub is being worked on.  With bearings, you can take the hub to a truck dealer, or machine shop to have them press in new bearing races, and the seal tool is not all that expensive.  As to brakes- typically most just replace the entire brake drum and shoes.  I know that a brake drum for a truck (16.5" x 7") is less than $100.00 each and the lining kit about the same amount.  Course like on my bus, the 14.5" x 10" rear and 14.5" x 7" fronts will be more.  If you have time and the backing plates for the linings are still good, you can get your's relined.  Make sure you choose a lining that works well when cold.  Good Luck, TomC

[tekebird]

I thought the Viaggio was a 40 footer?  or 41 or something...not a 45 footer?

I also forgot what you ended up paying.....I had also thought in a previous thread you had mentioned what you have put into it so far maint wise....perhaps my mistake

[Busted Knuckle]

I thought the Viaggio was a 40 footer?  or 41 or something...not a 45 footer?

I also forgot what you ended up paying.....I had also thought in a previous thread you had mentioned what you have put into it so far maint wise....perhaps my mistake

43'er

[tekebird]

anyone have a comparison interior length  Same class as a 40 foot or a 45 foot