Doing the impossiblre

[RJ]

Jerry -

I posted this before, but just an FYI:

I have a busnut friend who does the small-town carnival/festival circuit up and down the west coast, hauling a 27', three-axle, cargo box trailer full of bounce houses and other, similar amusements.  Trailer weighs around 12K, loaded.

He went through three 4106's pulling that trailer.  All three "died" from structural failures in the rear of the coach.

He now uses a Kingsley KW (http://www.kingsleycoach.com/), but laments about the bus. . .

FWIW & HTH. . .

[Jerry Liebler]

Russ,
  I do remember your post.  I don't know what GM changed in going from the 4106 to the 4107 and I'd really like to know exactly where the structural failures occured.  Does he, perhaps have pictures of the damage to any of them?
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120

[kyle4501]

Another impossibility for bus nuts

Keeping on topic   


When someone tells me that something can't be done, I expect logical, not emotional, discussion. The simple fact that a dog hasn't bitten you doesn't mean it won't bite me. Just because you don't know the reason doesn't mean there isn't one.

I suffered thru 3 semesters of engineering grad school studying materials & fatigue of materials. I understand why the numbers sometimes lie, but I can't explain it to most. Maybe my dyslexia concerning differential equations is the reason, maybe I'm just stupid    Naaaah, I like to blame it on the fancier sounding word. 

The fatigue of materials is (at least it is to me) a complex issue. The number of cycles to failure varies with the magnitude of the load, material used, ductility of the material, shape of the part, etc. In some cases, you can improve the life of the part with a single cycle 'overload'. But other cases this 'overload' will greatly reduce the remaining life of the part.

I know that for cyclic loading, steel has an endurance limit & if your loads remain under it, it won't fail, ever.

Aluminium, on the other hand has no endurance limit, so under cyclic loading, it will eventually fail - unless it is annealed & then the cycle counter is reset. Also, doesn't aluminum age harden at room temperature?

These issues provide the sound basis for exercising caution when altering something as complex as a monocue (sp?) structure. Simple static load calculations mean little when you are cyclic loading something like we do with our buses riding down the road.
(The endurance limit for steel is ~half it's ultimate strength (up to an ultimate strength of 100kpsi).)


Sure some can do it because they have good intuition, field experience, or the proper education.
But I've seen some that can't even with lots of education & field experience, & worse still are the ones that don't know their limitations & refuse sound advice.

So when someone says "you can't do that", I don't take it as an insult. I initially take it as coming from someone who cares about my success. (Later if they turn out to be an idiot, well we all know what they can do with their input.  )

When there is negativity towards a potential project, I start looking for info I may have missed.

I enjoy discussing the various merits of a project during the planning stage, the improvements are so much easier to implement when you don't have to 'tow it home first' 

[kyle4501]

BTW, doesn't our own Dallas have personal experience with a bus's early retirement as a result of pulling a trailer. Something about the floor buckling up if I remember. . .

[Chaz]

Well said Kyle. So what have you done to your bus that was thought "impossible"?  Ya just gotta have a story or two! 
 
   Chaz

[kyle4501]

While not 'impossible' it was idiotic, does that count?

I talked my dad into taking his E350 van & going with me & my son 2500 miles (one way) to Hungry Horse MT to get some bus parts - based only on the description provided by the seller & pictures taken with 6" of snow on them! I was told they weighed ~5000 lbs. That was a bit optimistic! We knew we were heavy on that 7000# capacity trailer so we left the 8V71 there. We hit the scale in KY & found we had 9000# on the axles & 2000# tongue weight!

It pulled EXCELLENT! even when we came up on some unexpected ice on the road in either MY or WO. (This southern boy wasn't expecting ice on the road when it was ~70F ! )

Are all those that say 500# max tongue weight wrong?

Was the hitch manufacturer that stamped the hitch at 1000# max tongue weight wrong?

Was pulling that stunt worth it? - Since it all turned out well, HELL YES!     

Would I do it again? I'm taking the 5th. 

That trip ranks near the top of the list as far as awesome scenery & memories go. The bounty of stuff I brought back is cool too. Some of it that I thought I'd NEVER need has proved quite usefull in making new friends by giving some parts needed for their Scenicruiser. 

[Jerry Liebler]

Chaz,
     For Kyle, it's not bus, it's buses. he's after the world record for owning more 4510s than anyone since Greyhound.  For Kyle it's impossible to have too many Sencicruisers.
Regards
Jerry

[FloridaCliff]

All I know is if Kyle and Jerry get together at the non-rally, I will need some one to record the discussion so I can look up the big words later. 

Maybe I will bring a dry erase board.   

Funny enough, The roof raise was not a big deal once I felt secure about beefing up the engine attachment points to the roof etc..., but I would never tow a trailer even behind a stock GMC as my school of common sense wont let me after studying how its attached.   

We all have different comfort points with changes or additions.  Right or wrong!

Cliff

[kyle4501]

Chaz,
     For Kyle, it's not bus, it's buses. he's after the world record for owning more 4510s than anyone since Greyhound.  For Kyle it's impossible to have too many Sencicruisers.
Regards
Jerry

See why I like Jerry, He understands me, & in spite of all that, he returns my phone calls

[Utahclaimjumper]

 These things are right up there with catylizing diesel with propane for increased power for hills and grades, cant be done without blowing the engine.
(spsspssss been doing it for ten years)>>>Dan

[Jerry Liebler]

Dan,
    You just reminded me of eliminating the slobber tubes on a Detroit 2 stroke, I was amazed to find that Chaz's bus has this 'impossible' modification too, I think it was done by one of his bus's previous owners.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120

[HB of CJ]

On purpose stopped my Crown on a graded dirt forest service road with a certified 10% up grade, put the old girl in first gear, then proceeded to motor right up the hill.  Clutch never smelled and still works fine.  Later a engineer type friend calculated the Crown specs and said she would have started easily on a 18% grade, but I do not believe him, nor would I try it since I love my bus and would never abuse it and besides............

[Dallas]

BTW, doesn't our own Dallas have personal experience with a bus's early retirement as a result of pulling a trailer. Something about the floor buckling up if I remember. . .

Yup,
That was me!
We had a 1948 TDH3610 (GMC Old Look Transit Coach) with a 4-71 and a Spicer 1 speed hydraulic transmission. (Yes.... it was a Spicer, NOT an Alison).
We pulled a 20' flat bed trailer from Fargo, ND to Myrtle Beach, SC and back to Rockingham, NC.
The trailer was loaded with a 10 1/2' cabover camper, all of my tools and a bunch of personal stuff in a box I built under the cabover part of the camper.
Total weight being pulled was a little over 8,000 pounds.
One day I was looking at the bus along the beltline and something didn't look right so I got out a string and pulled it tight from front to back on the bus. The bus had a noticeable hump above the bulkhead just in front of the drive axle and dropped 4" from the differential to the back of the bus above the engine.
I climbed on top of the bus and found hundreds of loose and "popped" rivets  all along the roof, including the upper sides above the windows.
The one thing I didn't find was any buckling on the outside. I attribute that to the give of the rivets along the rest of the structure.

I sure loved that old bus and hated to see it go, but I ended up selling it to a fellow in New Mexico who elected to drive it all the way back. I had recommended that he trailer it, but he decided to take an 8 week trip instead. (Top speed on the flats was 40 mph, up hill was 14 mph).

Would I pull a trailer that heavy again? Not with an Old Look, but with my 4103 I probably would, after designing a hitch that attached way forward of the bulkheads and with reinforcement to the roof trusses. to allow more of the trailer tongue weight to be absorbed by the roof structure.

Somewhere, on some CD, stored in some ungodly spot under the bed, I have photos of the bus. Maybe I can dig them up some day and post them.

Bottom Line is, --Do it your way, but do it safely and with a lot of fore thought. Nothing is impossible with enough information, study, and work. I'll bet you could even make one of these monocoque monsters fly with enough work. After all, the c-47 (Boeing DC3) was monocoque and it was considered one of the best aircraft in the world for years. There are still many of them in service.

Dallas