Smog Devices and Detroit's Future

[TomC]

I've been reading alot of speculation, and since I'm in the new truck industry with Freightliner (who owns Detroit), thought I'd shed some light.  First off with the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter)-every engine manufacturer is using the DPF with Diesel catalyst, except for Caterpillar that is only using the DPF with their ACERT technology.  The exhaust has to go through the DPF, so the new engines will have NO soot or smoke being emitted.  So much so, we had a deminstrator truck with 6500 miles come by and I rubbed my finger inside the exhaust pipe-no soot at all-pretty remarkable.

As to the 2010 engines, Detroit/Mercedes-Benz are coming out with all new line of engines. Gone will be the Series 60, Series 4000, and Series 900 engines.  The new engines will be something like a 7.2 liter, 9 liter, 12.5 liter, 14.5 liter and 16 liter.  Detroit is coming out with new engines since the existing engines will not be able to take the kind of internal pressures that are necessary to meet the new fuel effieciency standards.  Basically what they are doing it to take the smog devices off the engine, and then reley on the Diesel catalyst, DPF and Urea reaction chamber.  Theoretically the new engines should get much better fuel economy-possibly close to 10mpg with an 80,000lb truck (at 60mph).  The new engines have to be made very strong with a new type of engine block material to take the pressures.  Even I don't know the whole scoop, and I'm in the industry.  Very hush hush so far.  Series 60 will be around till 2010 though.  Good Luck, TomC

[belfert]

I was actually doing some research on this very issue the other day.  Press releases from a year or two back said that this new motor line was supposed to start production in 2007.  I'm fairly certain that hasn't happened or Detroit would have something on their website about it.

There are scattered reports that some of the new 2007 diesels are getting better MPG than 2006 diesels simply because the combustion event can be dirtier and the DPF will clean it up.  Truckers will really be happy if 2010 engines can really get 10 MPG since they get 6.5 MPG or less now.  If pickup diesels could also get 50% better mileage that would go a long way towards the new mileage standards for light trucks,

[Kristinsgrandpa]

This all sounds great......but will anyone except lottery winners be able to afford them.

Also with the higher prices of new OTR haulers the prices of hauled goods will go up, unless the reduction of fuel prices offset the price increase of the new trucks.

I guess I'm stuck with my 6V92  for a while.

Ed

[gg04]

Mercedes bought Freightliner and Detroit to finally get into the US big truck market....Give them a while and they are lible to run it into the ground just like they did MAN and Chrysler....Trying to sell european technology to the american market...they don't understand at all....gg

[TomC]

I beg to differ from your statement on European design.  Practically everyone that uses the Mercedes-Benz 12.8 liter Series 4000 or the 7.2 liter Series 900 becomes a convertee.  European engines have a much better low end torque than even the Detroit Series 60.  I tell drivers that if they are coming around the corner with the Series 4000 and the engine is only at 1000rpm, to not down shift-just push on the go pedal and the engine picks up nicely.  We have sold to several beverage fleets, dirt hauling fleets, etc-when they see the difference in the MBE compared to Cat or Cummins with fuel mileage, they never go back.  Plus the drivers love the big torque.  We sold 20 Columbia 2 axle tractors to a dirt hauler that had only C12's.  In the first 20,000 miles of driving (and the engines are not broken in yet) they figured in fuel savings that the MBE trucks would pay for themselves in 7 years!
Granted Mercedes-Benz bought Freightliner in 1982-which boosted Freightliners quality, and Freightliner bought Detroit Diesel in 2002.  Mercedes-Benz, Freightliner and Detroit Diesel are committed to clean engine technology and rest assured will be around for a long time.  Both Freightliner and Detroit Diesel are profitable corporations-why do you think that Freighltiner makes one third of the big trucks on the road?  Good Luck, TomC

[gg04]

I'll stand by mine Tom... you repeat the comlpany line real well .. and your really good at looking stuff up on the internet ..but..  Already now Most DD parts are made in China... If you buy an American company and remove manufacturing from the US  you have already lost me ...there are plenty of small American companies the produce parts for  old and new DD engines ..  Where are MB's parts manufacturing located??  Great that they may have finally figured out the U. S. market...We really need to be spending our dollars to help a foreign company.. But I retired in 86  so the MAN debacle is still what I think of when it come to MB heavy duty diesels.. Owning most of the market in heavy trucks is normally just price from fleet sales...It's how MCI and Prevost took the bus  market away from GMC, make a product that looks like the real one but costs half as much to produce...and walah....most units sold... gg04

[TomC]

When you look at any new product now, made in the USA comes from the involvement of many outside countries making the parts for the completed product.  So much so- that Boeing making the 787 made three custom 747, expanded in width, freighters to transport the sections of the fuselage from various parts of the world to be assembled in Washington.  Granted China now is the new Japan of the 60's.  It's something that we just have to get used to-whether we like it or not.  Interestingly-it has been proven that the Honda Goldwing has more American made parts than the Harley-do figure!  Good Luck, TomC

[lostagain]

I saw in the paper the other day that Honda is in talks to buy Harley-Davidson. Ha, ha!

[Busted Knuckle]

I saw in the paper the other day that Honda is in talks to buy Harley-Davidson. Ha, ha!

If they implement Honda's customer service and appreciation attitude, it'll be a huge improvement! Harley has forgoten all the little guys who stuck with them back when they were not "acceptable in most circles" and the only ones who had Harley's  were "BIKERS" loosely translated as scumbags. But then in the '90's the yuppies. rubs and wannabes decided Harley's were COOL, and so all the sudden Harley became a household name. And well if you ain't got tons of $ to blow and build a "Harley Boutique" (as a dealer), or spend at the "Harley Boutique" (as a customer) corporate "Harley" (who so quickly forgets the days of Harley being so bad that AMF bought them out, and then dumped them as they were unprofitable at the time!) could care less about you! "Now get outta the way that little ol' lady behind you has $500.00 worth of T-shirts and other Harley crap she's buying for her yuppie kids!"
Sorry I'm off my soap box now! I love Harley's, but hate the corporation that owns them! My next bike will be a personally assembled hand crafted assortment of aftermarket parts with a huge S&S engine that will say "HARDLY A DAVIDSON" on the gas tank! BK 

[prevost82]

I have to disagree with some of what you said BK. I've owned Harleys for 37 yrs starting with a 80 inch panhead in 1970. The first new Harley I bought was a 1983 FXR that lost a crank pin 1000 miles over waranty, took it to the dealer and they told me to pound sand... I was very upset to say the lest as this was a known problem (AMF) and they wouldn't stand behind their product.

Fast forward 32 yrs ... I have a 2001 FLH and the wife has a 2001 FXDT ... The first year we bought these bikes we rode from Vancouver BC to Key West and back .. around 12000 miles with no problems. The 2nd year we crossed Canada and back 8000 miles. The 3rd year we went down to Sturgis in June, (1983 was the last time I was at the ralley, 80,000 bikes was enough for me and most rode in but you could start see the change from bikers that lived on their bikes knew how to ride safe and ride in a pack, won't go there at rally time anymore too many weekend warriors with liquid courage that have to duckwalk at slow speed....sorry for the segway)

Anyway the 1st day heading to the Blackhills I had engine oil punking out the crank vent ... I thought I over filled it as this is a common result. Well it happen a couple of more times and the 3rd time we were heading back from the Badlands and I decided to stop at Rapid City HD to have a look. I arrived at RC HD around 4 pm ... they were very busy but because we were on tour we went to the front of the line. By 5pm they had the oil pump off, cams & chain out ready to put back together. They called me in to have a look at the damage, I'm thinking about a 1500 dollar bill, and the mechanic tells me last year during rally they had a stream of bikes with 10 to 20K on them all have the pump go out of time but my bike at this time had 80k on it. The mechanic called the service manager over and we went over what was to be replaced, I upset because this was a known issue and I think I'm going to get stuck with a big bill. They tell me to be back around 9am tomorrow .... so the wife jumps on her bike and turns and looks at me and sez " I guess you have to ride bitch" LOL. The next morning back to the shop at 9am and the bike was all ready to go. I asked the sevice manager what the damage was and he said "no charge". I damm near hit the floor. They replaced the oil pump, new cam bearings, new cam chain and tensioner. So it's my experience that they do stand behind there product and take out all the stops to get you back on the road ASAP if you are touring. We have since rode up to Alaska and over to Pennsylvania, Maine without any problems at all, we now have around 160k on them.

To add to this a friend and his wife that we ride with change out his HD motor at 200K miles with a 110 inch RevTec motor that lasted 2 yrs with nothing but problems and last year he put in S&S 120 inch in and has had some grief with it (cam lifter piled up and took out the cam) they were on there way to Sturgis and spent 3 days waiting for parts and to find someone to fix it ... HD wouldn't fix it. He's now thinking of going back to a 103 inch HD motor.

Ron

[Jeremy]

I'll stand by mine Tom... you repeat the comlpany line real well .. and your really good at looking stuff up on the internet ..but..  Already now Most DD parts are made in China... If you buy an American company and remove manufacturing from the US  you have already lost me ...there are plenty of small American companies the produce parts for  old and new DD engines ..  Where are MB's parts manufacturing located??  Great that they may have finally figured out the U. S. market...We really need to be spending our dollars to help a foreign company.. But I retired in 86  so the MAN debacle is still what I think of when it come to MB heavy duty diesels.. Owning most of the market in heavy trucks is normally just price from fleet sales...It's how MCI and Prevost took the bus  market away from GMC, make a product that looks like the real one but costs half as much to produce...and walah....most units sold... gg04

Whilst I am sympathetic towards your support for home industry and jobs, from an Economics point of view (and I did my degree in Economics) it is exactly these kind of anti-competitive / protectionist policies in the past that have resulted in the present weaknesses within many so sectors of American manufacturing industry, when compared to Europe and the Far East. The 'problem' is that the domestic US market is so huge that it has historically masked or distorted US manufacturer's view of the global market; whilst companies in other countries have been getting fit (ie. getting cheaper and/or technically advancing the product) American companies have in many cases just got fat. Of course, if the US Government continue to protect the market in the way they have in the past (high import tarrifs, low fuel taxes etc) then there is no problem, but the (stupendously huge) national balance-of-payment deficit and other macro-economic changes probably mean those days are already almost over.

Jeremy

[Busted Knuckle]

I have to disagree with some of what you said BK. I've owned Harleys for 37 yrs starting with a 80 inch panhead in 1970. The first new Harley I bought was a 1983 FXR that lost a crank pin 1000 miles over waranty, took it to the dealer and they told me to pound sand... I was very upset to say the lest as this was a known problem (AMF) and they wouldn't stand behind their product.

So it's my experience that they do stand behind there product and take out all the stops to get you back on the road ASAP if you are touring. We have since rode up to Alaska and over to Pennsylvania, Maine without any problems at all, we now have around 160k on them.

To add to this a friend and his wife that we ride with change out his HD motor at 200K miles with a 110 inch RevTec motor that lasted 2 yrs with nothing but problems and last year he put in S&S 120 inch in and has had some grief with it (cam lifter piled up and took out the cam) they were on there way to Sturgis and spent 3 days waiting for parts and to find someone to fix it ... HD wouldn't fix it. He's now thinking of going back to a 103 inch HD motor.

Ron

Well Ron, I am pleased to hear you were treated so well by THE INDEPENANT DEALER on your Black Hills experience! I wouldn't be one bit surprised if they didn't turn it into corporate as many less miles for reimbursement (common practice by the independent dealers who stuck with Harley thru the bad yrs{a lot of them selling lawn mowers, sleds, western flyer wagons or any and everything else they could to survive}, only to be forced to spend MEGA$ to build the "Boutiques" exactly as Harley said or loses their franchise! Once Harley became cool in the as you say "weekend warriors" & yuppies, rubs, wannabes, and everyone else who could care less about riding they just bought a Harley because it was cool crowds!)
And at the same time I can understand the very upset feelings when that dealer back in the '80's told told you take a hike, because he knew if he turned it in properly at 1000 miles over that's exactly what he'd be told! The dealerships of that time period were terribly stressed out from doing what ever it took to stay loyal to an "uncool brand" that they loved with a very large lack of support to show for it! Then when Harley did become COOL it was the first to kick those same poor dealers who stuck with them thru thick 'n thin in the face if they could not afford to "upgrade to the new Harley Boutique Image!"
You misread my complaint! It ain't against the individual dealers (many who are way over their heads in dept from borrowing the $ to keep up with the NEW IMAGE!) But rather I can't stand the corporation that won't stand behind the folks who stood behind them when times weren't so good!
Yes there are very many good dealerships out there among those who have no business being in any business except a fancy retail shop! (ya know the ones who jumped in with $ in both hands when the local struggling dealership folded because he couldn't or wouldn't let corporate force him into opening a "T-Shirt Boutique") I never said that the AMF days were good either! The bikes were JUNK, and the rest of the plan was a joke too! That's why AMF dumped them after they realized they couldn't make a quick fortune off the name! In my opinion Harley's have always been cool! But I'll be damned if I'm gonna support the corporate, when I can build my own and work on it too! FWIW BK 

[gg04]

Sorry Jeremy we still are not civil....and how is englands economy??? whats the unemployment??? how many on the dole??? what products do you export to the rest of the world??? Still have a class system??? I DO NOT SUPPORT SLAVE LABOR NOR WILL I...You can buy from them if you want..  Hmm maybe we are civilized......gg04

[H3Jim]

sheesh, easy guys, isn't this as bus bulletin board?

[prevost82]

BK ... I agree with you. I guess what I was trying to get across is the HD's dealer network and support is very good if you tour on your bike, that's all we do. We're not bar hoppers, have way too many scars from the 70's & 80's doing that to start that again. If you pull in to an HD dealer you know that they can fix your bike, no so with Honda or Yamaha, you don't now what your pulling into.... could be a lawn mower / generator shop.

I've been wrenching HD for along time on the side of the road, it's kinda nice to only have to change oil and do regular maintenance hit the start button and go. And when something breaks, theres a HD dealer not too far down the road.

But I now what you mean about the "T-shirt Boutiques" ... It's sure not like the old days where you'd be sitting around in the HD's mechanics shop drinking beer and shooting the sh*t with a half dozen other guys ... Those days are gone.

Ron