Planning on using Veggie Oil? Better think again.

[MC6#95]

Having been in a very high profile position for years, and getting feed back from customers over the years, this really isn't a wide spread issue, and of the 3 cases that i am aware of, they could have been totally avoided if the person would have been educated and approached the situation with some anatomy and knowledge.
In Arkansas we got legislation passed that exempts straight veggie oil and NewMexico is also a state where they have exempted it.
Most states, however have no clue what to do and have absolutely no way to police or track, and most states if asked tell people to go away and do it, we don't want to mess with it.
As far as David and Eileen Wetzel in Ill, within one week of that story there was a fallow up where the state government exempted SVO and got them off the hook.  In all cases it is petty bureaucrats who are doing it, but when it gets very high up the ladder, it is too political incorrect to bust someone for Alt. Fuel.
I understand that some of us are on a very fine line, but with no precedent on this someone has to stand up and be counted.  I for one want to be able to look my kids in the eye when I am old, and know that i did all I could to appose encroaching regulation on our freedom.
As Sam Adams once said,
".lf ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animated contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. --Samuel Adams

Charles Anderson
www.goldenfuelsystems.com

[Dale MC8]

When using either WVO or SVO you must use a two-system fuel delivery; ie.: two tanks, two sets of fuel lines.

I have seen somewhere, a suggestion that the second system [veggie oil] be considered a 'fuel enhancement' system, similar to the water injectors in other days.

Treat the VO the same as you would such additives as fuel system cleaners and such, that require no road taxes.

I have no problem PAYING road taxes, I have a problem paying SELECTIVE road taxes.

It also seems that if the Government collects taxes on alternative fuels they should be willing to deduct from our taxes the cost of providing, supplying and delivery of these alternative fuels and fuel systems.

If WVO is used, it must be collected, filtered, stored and then put into the vehicle fuel tanks. The vehicles that use these fuels must also be altered, provided with additional storage tanks, switching system, etc. These are NOT zero cost procedures.

OK, time to put away the soap box, these are my thoughts.

Dale

[rayshound]

Grand opening
A biodiesel beginning


By BRETT CLANTON
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

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Harry Roehaufer, above, walks through a new biodiesel plant in Galveston. It celebrated its grand opening Tuesday.

It is one of the first large-scale facilities in North America to produce diesel fuel made from soybean oil and other renewable sources. With an initial production capacity of 20 million gallons a year, BioSelect Fuels and partner Chevron Corp. said the plant can be expanded to 110 million gallons a year. Among participants in Tuesday's celebration were U.S. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, R-Texas; U.S. Reps. Nick Lampson, D-Stafford, and Ron Paul, R-Lake Jackson; and Galveston Mayor Lyda Ann Thomas.

brett.clanton@chron.com





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  TDEvans wrote:
Initially, they're using soybean oil for feeds. The plan to use a variety of other feeds, including imported palm oil. In the long run, they're developing technologies to use "non-food" feeds so there is no impact on food supplies.

They're currently planning to export most of their production because current pricing in Europe is more attractive. The European laws that encouraging the use of biodiesel are stronger than in the U.S., so pricing is more attractive there. In fact, many inland biodiesel plants in the U.S. are not operating because they can't make money here and don't have the ability to export.
6/1/2007 7:46:38 AM
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[Tony LEE]

Just so you don't feel hard done by, here in OZ, DIY biodiesel maker/users are supposed to pay the federal fuel excise (about $1 a gallon) but those using straight vegetable oil seem to be excluded - maybe on the basis that it is an auxiliary fuel source rather than the prime source.

[Green-Hornet]

Yup...lose them stickers and get a locking gas cap..Thats the way to foil that nonsense
Using their logic...If I see a piece of furniture I like and decide to make it myself, I owe sales tax on the item for it's value I guess. Cripes.... What next

[HighTechRedneck]

Using their logic...If I see a piece of furniture I like and decide to make it myself, I owe sales tax on the item for it's value I guess. Cripes.... What next

Don't say it too loud    In some jurisdictions, it would be subject to personal property tax.

[tekebird]

they are not trying to charge sales tax on it but Fuel/road tax.

Gasoline you use in a boat is subject to the same road tax......here  in PA you fill out a form each year with your Estimated fuel use and the Dept of Fish and Game gets that tax money rather than the State DOT for roads as it was not road used.

[MC6#95]

Is gathering, and burning waste vegetable oil Legal?

First lets break it down into 2 questions.

Question 1.
Is it legal to gather waste vegetable oil.

Who knows?!?!  Depends on who you ask, where you live, how much you are hauling, And most importantly, Is anybody really asking?
For 99.9 % of the people who are using waste oil as a fuel, this is not even an issue for them.  They make a deal with a local restaurant, pick up a few jugs of oil every week, (which is basically a take out order of greasy fries, minus the fries) and go on about their business.  No one bothers them.  There is no reason to bother them.
The rendering companies, over the years, have paid for a few laws in a few states, that make it "illegal" to haul waste oil without a permit.  (its for your own good you know.  It is too dangerous for you to haul 10 gallons of used oil,  sitting next to the 10 gallons of new oil you  bought to fry a turkey and some fish in) The permit is usually $100 or under, and that is that.  The good old American way, use the force of government to favor one business, and require you to pay the ransom for the "right" to do something.  To my knowledge the only people who have ever paid attention to this law, is the rendering companies in very competitive oil markets in big cities.  The DA has better things to do than to prosecute a dangerous guy with 10 gallons of oil in the back of his Mercedes. I have only heard of 1 or 2 cases where guys that were collecting thousands of gallons of oil, and got into it with the Renderers, and had their hands slapped at the request of the renderers.  Like I said they are the only ones who care.  It is kind of like some one getting all excited and turning you in for having a garage sale and not collecting sales tax.  It isn't going to happen.  The only time the powers that be would care is if you went from a garage sale to a legitimate business open 5 days a week, then they want you to collect the tax.
For most of our customers, they are gathering oil from places that don't have a recycling contract to begin.  To me it is a non issue.
There are many arguments you could make for it, how about this one.  The oil is food.  The restaurant is in the business of selling food, they sell allot of oil with their food.  You want the oil, The owner wants to give it to you, buy a burger and fries and ask for a healthy side of oil.  You are not hauling grease, you bought food.   Will it stand up in court?  I don't know?  The chances of you going there are nil.
There are many ways to approach it, use your imagination.
But a few things to remember are that people are not getting into trouble over this, and IF there is a "law"  it is very questionable if there is any relation to an individual picking up oil for personal use anyway.  Whether you burn it in your car feed it to your dogs, or use it to keep the dust down on your gravel road, It doesn't matter.
If you are gathering on a grand scale, or are in a particularly socialist state and are nervous about it, you might decide to get a renderers license.  I encourage everyone to do your home work, study it out in your own mind and decide where you stand on the issue.  Ultimately there are endless situations for a variety of different people.  It is up to you to decide what your tactic is going to be. 
For me personally, I am never for supporting and possibly furthering regulation on something that is so clearly harmless and a natural right.   If there is a grey area, which this certainly is, I will side with personal freedom and less regulation.  Some people are not comfortable with that.  It is for each person to decide for themselves.       

Question 2.
Is it legal to use vegetable oil as a fuel?

Most States have no idea where they stand on Vegetable oil as a fuel .  It is not an EPA recognized fuel, there for not a "legal" fuel .  (Neither is sunshine, water, peanut butter, or small mammals.)  Just because something isn't specifically legal, doesn't necessarily make it illegal. 
In 99% of the cases where people have gone to the state authority and asked "who do I pay for road tax, and how much?"  they are told "we don't know, we have no forms for it, and it isn't in the book, go away and don't worry about it."  Every once in awhile they will get the " You cant do that, you have to fill out the forms, pay the tax, and buy the secret decoder pen to be official!"  It is usually and arbitrary decision from a low level administrator that is looking for job security.   I have also heard of people getting two different answers out of the same office.  The bottom line is nobody really knows in most states, and more importantly very few care.  And if they care at all, it is usually positive because they see something good for the environment.
A very interesting point is, the states that will except a voluntary payment of highway tax, are doing so on a "non-legal" and unrecognized fuel.  I am sure there is room to explore the ramifications of that concept.

OK, so if there is confusion and different answers amongst the "officials" , then the question has to be asked, why is the question coming up?
Except for 2 instances I know of, which I will discuss later, the only reasons people are getting these varied answers, is because they are doing the asking.  This issue is not even on the radar, and the only reason it is coming up is people are asking.
This is really a grey area with white shades in our favor.   I have heard and thought of many very plausible arguments as to why using waste vegetable oil is exempt from taxes and is not under any specific jurisdiction.
Without going into great detail, I will mention a few for you to think about, and I am sure if you are inclined you can think of a few yourself. 
1. The oil is gathered for free, it is not bought or sold, so there is no taxable event.
2. Sales Tax was paid on the oil when it was bought by the restaurant.   
3. Because the vehicle is started and shut down on petroleum diesel, taxes are being paid on that portion, and the veggie oil is only a fuel extender or additive.
4. It is not a recognized fuel, and because of that there is no statute stating the rate of taxation.
5. You only burn veggie oil when you are on private property, or off road, and are not liable for taxes.
6. If no one is asking, (and even if they are) keep it to yourself.  It is no one else's business.

Now the 2 cases I know of where people were "turned in" "fined" or hassled by the Gubment,  They could have been totally avoided if the person would have been educated and approached the situation with some anatomy, knowledge and discretion.  The "agents" in both situations didn't have any precedent, they were just applying statute that was similar to see if it would fly. (remember that there is next to no precedent for SVO/WVO cases.)   The "guilty" parties were fined.  In both cases, within a week there was enough public outrage that the state legislatures passed  exemptions for the fines and set the precedent in the positive.  So in that sense the people who were involved did ok not resolving it at the scene.   The reality was, that once it got past the petty bureaucrats, and went up the line. no one was going to go after these guys for recycling and using a clean alternative fuel.  In this day and age it is political suicide to do it.

There is also a very positive movements in several states, and it is gaining momentum.
New Mexico and Illinois have "legalized" veggie oil.
But one of the most exciting was getting Act 690 passed into law in Arkansas in March 2007.
It redefines the law in Arkansas to exempt pure unmodified vegetable oil as a fuel.  Essentially saying that they will leave us to use it as we see fit, and they will not tax it or regulate it.  Since the passing of the bill several other states have requested information on the bill, and are looking to enact similar laws.

There are essentially 2 paths an individual can choose to take.

1. Seek out regulating agencies, determine if they will take your money, and if they will, volunteer how much oil you are using and pay them. 

2. Gather and burn veggie oil, save money, help the environment, don't support foreign oil, and take the very slight risk that at some point in the future you may have to explain why you chose to do what you did without asking permission and checking if it was OK first.

There are some people who do not feel comfortable with option 2, There is a risk that at some point you will have to explain yourself.  Everybody has to study the issue and make up their own minds on the issue.

At this point we are not on the radar, and there is no effort to go after veggie burners.  We are seen as hobbyist, and not a threat.  There are just too few of us, in the grand scheme of things, to spend the time to create a policy.   

In summery, all have to decide for themselves, taking into account their situation, where they live, and how they use the oil, which option they will go for.

                                                                                     Post Script


Now, although my personal position is probably apparent in this essay, I want to stand up and be counted, and state exactly where I personally stand on this issue.
I believe in personal freedom, and along with that personal responsibility.  I value my right to gather my own fuel in the private sector, without government intervention or permission, and to provide for the needs of my family.  I categorize it under "The pursuit of happiness"  It is a God given right, not a privilege granted by statute. 
I have not been quiet about my use of veggie oil as a fuel, I am in a high profile situation with my business, and the fact that my vehicles have the fact plastered all over them everywhere I drive.
I feel that with the situation that we have, where we are being left alone for the most part, that we let things be.  But if the situation arises to make a difference or to get policy changed we need to be in the fore front and keep things in the private sector and as unregulated as possible.  The Exemption we were able to pass into law in Arkansas is a perfect example.  We don't need government help, just get out of our way and let us do it.
I understand that some of us are on a very fine line, between minding our own business and being perceived as thumbing our nose at the powers that be,  but with next to no precedent on most of these issues, someone has to stand up and be counted.   There is risk involved I for one want to be able to look my kids in the eye when I am old, and know that I did all I could to appose encroaching regulation on our freedom.  I hope that the present trend of exemptions for Veggie oil will continue, but if not, there is a need for people to stand up and do what they can to promote less regulation, and the freedom to be a part of the solution on the grass roots level.  Pollution and foreign oil are big problems, problems largely created by bad government policy.  I for one, am not going to wait around and hope more government policy will fix it. 
Yes, there is risk involved in any cause that is trying to change the status quo.   I want to be able to look my children in the eye when I am old, and know that I stood up for what I believed in, and did what I could to make the world a better place.   

This may seem like an extreme rant to some, and it may resonate with others.  Some may believe that in a business forum that I would be better served taking a bit more neutral approach, but why stop now!?!  At the risk of angering a few, and not being very politically correct;  I second the words of Samuel Adams,


".lf ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animated contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. --Samuel Adams

Charles Anderson
President Of Golden Fuel Systems.

[Chaz]

Thank you Charles! I also care.
 
   Sincerly,
     Chaz Kaiser   

   

[captain ron]

Whew, That was a long post, but very well written. Thanks.

[brojcol]

How much government is too much government.

As a Federal employee with one of the greatest organizations in the world, I also believe that "who governs least, governs best."

The problem with taxes is that the people who want to repeal our tax cuts and make the "rich" pay more (by rich I mean people who make $150,000 or more a year) are themselves exempt from those taxes. 

Do you honestly think that Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid live exclusively on their pay as politicians?  What about Ted Kennedy?

No, they were already independently wealthy before they ever ran for office (you have to be these days).  They live on capital gains, not their "work" related income (that would be taxable).  Its the same reason they tell all of us to ride bicycles and eat rice, while they jetset all over the world in private jets, live in 250,000 square foot homes and zip around DC in their limo's (at taxpayer expense).  It's no wonder that Congress' approval ratings are even more dismal than Bush's.

Didn't mean to rant, BUT YOU BROUGHT IN ON YOURSELVES WITH THIS POST!!! 

Gone are the days of the citizen politicians who are running for office for the good of the country. 

[HighTechRedneck]

Gone are the days of the citizen politicians who are running for office for the good of the country. 

Well, actually they are still around, they just don't stand a chance of actually getting elected.  They know it, but they campaign anyway trying to draw political awareness to the issues they stand for.  There are also quite a few "good" people that decide they will "play the game" to get elected thinking they will then legislate by their values once elected.  But then they are either corrupted by the process or are briefed behind closed doors on their first day as to how the game works - "you back the party and its issues or the party won't back you and your's."

[Dreamscape]

I still would rather live here than anywhere else in the world!

Leaders in other countries are not doing any better job.

Yes, politics sucks. What is the alternative? Ask any Russian, Cuban or anybody else for that matter.

I LOVE THIS GREAT LAND!

Enough said!

Happy Trails,

Paul

Dreamscape

[Sojourner]

Whatever fuel that is made from labor & cost of equipment to produce it for highway traveling is ONLY sold via a pump that include road tax figure.

So whoever use untaxed fuel to travel on our American Highways...they should be out there doing labor work & pay the cost out of their pocket to pay the designing, material, building and repairing roads.

Sure fuel prices is high but many WANTS fuel anyway to just go to get two loafs of bread & a package of cigarette instead of a large grocery cart full for 2 weeks supply. That what we did in the 40's & 50's while gas was 21 cents per gallon. Railroad back then did almost all of transporting to all of USA. Each train now can pull 100 cars of 100 tons each. Which is less traffic jams, highway damaging and use 2 person with 1/3 of fuel then trucks. All in all we had just as much fun then.

If we all use fuel wisely...it will be lowered but not until then.

Plus process BIO fuel is still cost as much and yet not enough farm land to produce near what we use now. So BIO fuel price will soar higher then what pay for now.

I was raise on my dad farm......weather is not always good to have good crop of soybean & corn.
Here in South Carolina is having very poor corn crop due to 8 inches short of rain this season.

FWIW

Sojourn for Christ, Jerry in Elloree, SC

[HighTechRedneck]

I still would rather live here than anywhere else in the world!

Leaders in other countries are not doing any better job.

Yes, politics sucks. What is the alternative? Ask any Russian, Cuban or anybody else for that matter.

I LOVE THIS GREAT LAND!

Absolutely!!!  We have all of the issues that are being discussed and many more.  The country is no longer what it was founded to be.  But it is still the only place I would choose to live.  There are other good democracies in the world, but this is ours.  Many of us have served to defend and protect this nation of ours, whether it be as military, police or fire services.  Many others have died for it.

Sojourner, you make excellent points as always.  I agree that fuel tax is an obligation that should not be averted.  I think most here agree.  Within the scope of the original topic of this thread, it is the trend and methods of selective enforcement that are angering some.  That, and lower level bureaucrats trying to force a guy in his garage straining a barrel of used oil from a restaurants fryer to pay all the fees and maintain all the forms as a trillion dollar oil company.

I also agree that consumption level is driving price.  But not simply in the U.S. anymore.  Consumption in China and India is climbing rapidly and will continue to do so as these two countries continue the development.  Together they account for over half the world's population, they will eventually consume much more than the U.S. This will drive the cost of petroleum so high, people will look back on $3 fuel the way we now remember 15¢ per gallon gas.  This is why all forms of alternative fuel need to be fully explored and those doing it should be encouraged.  The pioneers, big and small, are the ones that are investing in the exploration and putting their engines at risk if they fail.  From that standpoint, I don't think it is really wrong if they are free of road taxes for awhile.  In fact, I support federal/state tax credits for individuals to help with their equipment expense.