Series 60 Question for Tom C

[Kristinsgrandpa]

    I found a series 60 with 3 stage jakes, and a 9 spd Fuller about 110 miles from my house.

Now the question is: how much bigger is the series 60 compared to my 6V-92TA?  My coach came with either a 6V-92 or an 8V-92.

This is in a 1992 White truck so all the controls go with it, as the whole truck goes for $6000.

He says 20,000 on a top end overhaul.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150115612201&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

Ed

[TomC]

Ed- alot bigger.  It is 200lb heavier than the 8V and 600lb heavier than the 6V.  But the physical dimensions are what is so big usually requiring you to raise the floor at the engine compartment.  And it is about 10 inches longer than the 8V.  While I think the Series 60 is the best engine made, maybe buy the truck with the Series 60 and then trade it for a smaller Cummins ISM or Caterpillar C12.  Even the more recent Cummins ISL will put out 400hp and 1200lb/ft torque in RV form. 
Unless you intend to drive your bus for at least 250,000 more miles, an engine swap is a very expensive way to go.  The 6V and 8V-92TA are excellent engines that get less fuel mileage than the Series 60, but then you could buy alot of fuel for the cost of the conversion.  Good Luck, TomC

[busguy01]

OK, so I'm not TomC! But: the truck engine is not a direct swap. The pan will need to be changed to a low profile which also means a new oil pick up tube assy. ven with the low pro pan you will need to raise the engine about 4" for ground clearance. Been there, done that.
Just my way, your milage may vary
JimH

[muddog16]

Ed, I'm not sure where I heard this but the reason Prevost went to a 45' from a 40' was to be able to handle the 60 series!  That sounds like a lot of extra room just to  handle 11 inches which is what I show the 60 series over the 8v92. The DD spec sheets show the 8v92 8 inches longer than the 6v92.   

Pat

[rv_safetyman]

Ed, your post and profile do not list your bus manufacturer.

If it is an Eagle, you can make the swap, but it is not for the faint of heart

The biggest dimension issue is the height.  Typically you will need to raise the bed a few inches.  The length can generally be worked out.  In an Eagle 05/10, it can be made to fit, lengthwise, with an HT740 and the 9 speed should be shorter giving you more room.

One of the biggest issues is the gearing.  The gearing for an two stroke is typically 30% low for a four stroke.  If the 9 speed is an overdrive (typical), you should be in great shape. 

I am told that a nine speed is not too bad to hook up to a standard shift bus system.  However, if you have an automatic, you will face a whole new set of issues.  You could consider an Autoshift which would eliminate the shift linkage, but you would still need a clutch system.

If you think about Autoshift, the engine would need to be a DDEC IV.  DDEC II and IV can be converted to DDEC IV, but that is costly.

If your bus is an Eagle, you can check out my project pages (listed in my signature) to see what all is involved.

Update:  I just went to the auction and that truck would seem to be "rode hard and put away wet" since the frame is cracked on both sides.  The age of the truck would suggest the engine is a DDEC I or II.  I would also guess that the engine has well over 1 million miles.  While the engine is good for 1 million (if well maintained), you would be looking at either a close to worn out engine needing an overhaul ($16K) or an engine with an unknown rebuild.  It could also be a 11.1 Liter engine.

Considering that there are lots of Series 60's out there for the same price, and you can often talk them into getting all the parts out of the cab, I think this truck might not be the best value.  They should be able to have someone put a reader on the ECM and give you a printout of the miles and other interesting information.

Jim

Jim

[skipn]

Ed,

If you are looking for engine and possible tranny change you might check out..

http://www.heavytruckparts.net/  Prices and quality are all over the board but there are some nice ones there.
any make and model engine you want.

I have more links but I filed them away some where and can't find them yet.

  Skip

[rv_safetyman]

Ed.

Another thought is to use a Cummins ISM and Autoshift.  The ISM will fit most buses much better than and Series 60 and has good power ratings.

Sometime back I posted about a sources for matched ISM and Autoshift.  That post is:

http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=1372.0

At least two folks have purchased the combination.  Brian Diehl has posted several threads on his purchase/project.  One of them is:


http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=3600.0


You will see that the wrecking yard prepares the frame and engine/transmission/cab such that it can be "shipped" and all of the parts that a conversion would need are with the package.

Jim

[TomC]

I agree with Jim.  If I were doing a 4 stroke conversion, as much as I like the Series 60, I think it is just plainly to big and heavy (you don't need a 1 million mile engine).  The vast majority of trash trucks use the M11/ISM Cummins with automatic-usually Allison.  I would look for a crashed trash truck that had a relatively low mile (less than 200,000mi) engine with the World six speed.  Then with the two overdrives, wouldn't have to change the rear end.  You could keep the same radiator and just add the air to air intercooler.  Just my opinion.  Good Luck, TomC

[skipn]

TomC

   Why would you add the air to air intercooler?

Thanks
Skip

[rv_safetyman]

Skip, all modern four strokes use an air to air charge air cooler.  Some of the earlier engines like the L10 used a water to air cooler. 

The modern 4 strokes use a large amount of turbo boost and that really adds heat to the intake air.  Without the air to air, the temperature of the air going into the engine would be well over 250 degrees.  Indeed, even with my air to air, my temperature approaches that on a long hard climb (still working on getting more air cooling). 

Some of the engines will de-rate when they sense high manifold air temperature to minimize damage to the engine.   I can't see that that happens on my Series 60, but it probably does.

Jim

[skipn]

I'm sorry a better formed question would be.

   Could a fully segregated air/liquid intercooler be better or easier to install than air to air?

   The air transfer cooler could be mounted anyware with hoses routed to the intercooler.
There would be less of a requirement in getting enough air volume to cool.

  Link to Bell   both air/air  and air/liquid

    http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/photos.html

   Just a curious thought.

  Skip

[TomC]

From the late 60's through the 90's, many of the engines had air to water aftercoolers using the coolest part of the water entering from the radiator-as a matter of fact on a 6V or 8V-92TA- the A is the air to water aftercooler in the valley of the block below the blower.  If you saw the size of these aftercoolers, it is almost a joke, that's why I used an air to air intercooler on my 8V-71 turbo job.  Virtually all on highway engines now have air to air intercoolers since they are the most effective.  Good Luck, TomC

[Kristinsgrandpa]

Tom C, I greatly appreciate your time and info.
Busguy01, Skipn, Pat and Jim  Thanks a lot for your input it was well taken.

I thought my profile listed my coach, etc. I'll remedy that.

The 6V-92 TA in my coach has a lot of room above it even with the turbo and associated piping.
My transmission is a HT 748 ATEC

I guess the ony thing I didn't stop to think about was the rearend change, my gears are 4.3 and would be a waste on a 60 Series.

The extra weight is less than the A/C unit I ditched, that sat on top of the motor.

My 6V-92 has 48,500 mi on a Reliabuilt stickered engine, so maybe I should just be glad that it's not on it's last leg.

Thanks again everyone, I remembered someone saying if you do an engine change try to get the whole truck for all the controls/sensors.

Ed

[prevost82]

Hey Pat ... I friend down the street, has a 2 bus charter, has a stock factory 97 Prevost 40' with a ser 60 in it, so they are around. Did you get that "new" 8V92 in yet?
Ron

[busnut104]

OK, so I'm not TomC! But: the truck engine is not a direct swap. The pan will need to be changed to a low profile which also means a new oil pick up tube assy. ven with the low pro pan you will need to raise the engine about 4" for ground clearance. Been there, done that.
Just my way, your milage may vary
JimH

I put a 8v-92 in a mc8 and still have the truck oil pan. the clearance  is not bad so I'm going to leave it as is.