What bus to start with

[ltcinfantry]

I am partial to the 2002 MCI D4500 because I have one that I'm converting. However, I have to agree with some on this board that a late 90's model would be better (like Jim Blackwood's bus). I have the module electrical system in lieu of a bunch of standard wires going from front to rear. The modules are pretty complicated and are fed by 8 pair computer style cables in lieu of a whole bunch of wires. However, I think I would rather have the standard wire system as the modules come with a level of complexity. I do not have an EGR, but I do have the 12.7-liter Series 60 and Allison B500. It's a real nice bus to convert. I like the 45 foot bus as the bays have some exterior wall area beyond the doors that is nice for installing things where a door is otherwise the same width as the bay. I have my tank outlet coming right out the side of the bus, and I do not have to run the drain hose through the open bay door, or up through a hole in the floor. I also have my 50 amp inlet mounted right on the side of the bus next to the bay door thanks to the extra wall area. I personally like the style of the E or J series (I don't recall which is which) as they have (I believe) the spiral entry stairs and a fancier looking exterior. The D series is a little more "utility" looking and is a work horse. I had to change out the double doors with a sedan door and I did not have a rear restroom (I hear those are a real pain to remove). You can follow my build on YouTube under 'Glennman' (a shameful plug for myself). Whichever you choose, have a great time. I think I enjoy building the bus more than I will using it, but it is a lot of fun to drive around. The 45 foot is not a problem at all for me, but as some have mentioned, it may be an issue with some parks. I am building mine to boondock for the most part, but... we'll see.

Glennman, thank you. I will follow your YouTube feed. Sounds like you are doing what I would like to do. Yeah, wiring is a pain. When I dropped a V-8 in my Jeep Wrangle a few years ago, getting the engine into position and engine mounds welded in was the easy part, rewriting and getting 3 computers to talk to each other took a couple of months. But as you stated, I actually enjoy doing that stuff.

I do want to find a newer bus (2007ish and newer) and am willing to pay a little more for it up front understanding I will be dealing with newer technologies. The J model does look good but so far haven't seen one for a reasonable price yet. I'm hoping to stay below the 600k miles mark but for the right bus will go above. So far my search has been online. Next month I'm actually going to start physically looking at them in person. Like car buying, they always look different in person. I did see a beautiful Temsa bus in Saint Augustine a few weeks ago.

Good luck on your build!  John

[Jim Blackwood]

Another thing. When I was looking I found an MCI chart that listed the turning radius for all models of their buses and what I found interesting was that the DL had the same turning circle within about a foot of all the earlier coaches. That doesn't take into account the overhang or maybe the width but it was an eye opener. Ground clearance may be another matter.

Jim

[luvrbus]

The Temsa is a Turkish bus mostly with parts from China I would not buy one for the long run,a casino here owns 2 and are not happy with the buses for service and parts 

[windtrader]

Another source is auctions. Richie Brothers is a good place to start as they keep alot of info on the website. Particularly, sold and past auction detals. I have watched a number of crazy good deals and was seriously considering buying to flip. I think based on watching the auctions and actually talking to some tire kickers during preview at one, there are foreign buyers so there is some support to prices but it is very low as they have lots of costs to deal with duties and transport.
Given you can see something dozens at one time, it could be worth the cost to make the trip if you are serious about this path. One consideration with good and bad is the ones that just came out of service, you can tell by various dated random stuff if you look. This means they were running, coming from commercial service means all the safety checks were done and passed, mechanical stuff is more debatable.
Some will say, units planned for decommishing will defer maintenance. This is reasonable for stuff that is not safety or critical for basic mechanical operation. I do agree, what can be deferred is delayed, why put money into something that is out of the fleet soon.

Taking that to the next step, big stuff like engines and much stuff starts getting long in tooth around 700-800k. No surprise you see many on the block uner 1m and plenty in this 600-700 range. So be careful you are not buying potential big ticket problems.

But, overall, there are a lot of adnvantages to get a bus that was on the road in the not too distant past.

One more time - just go buy an already converted bus with your budget. You and your wife will be trilled to be cruising and enjoying life. There are too many unfortunate failed dream stories not just here where many just don't get done to enjoy the fruits of all the passion, hard work, and money spent.
If you want to get greasy even on a bus, get an old classic and have at it between your great road trips. Really.
addendum - Man, it is hard to take that route. I so wanted to do a DIY early on. But sage advice and wisdom sunk into this knucklehead's thick stuff, reality seeped in enough to take that route. I found an incredible conversion and man did I do the right thing. It has worked flawless over 5 years. Tires, oil, small stuff. Best decision ever.
But, I still get the urge do do a DIY today. I watch the actions and man, do I want to do it but it just doesn't work for me.

One last thought, I am so lucky that I have so few basic mechanical/electrical issues. There is a lot of crap that breaks all the time. Propane refrigerator pilot flame goes wonky, the fantastic fan thermostat quits, the windows stick, water leak around one window that I can not figure out where it leaks, blinds keep not staying uo=p, and on and on so much little stuff. I have solar and lithium that takes time to fine tune etc. Some sort of corrosion in the headlight ground keeps lights from full brightness. There is a never ending punch list.  Good luck

[chessie4905]

You want to enjoy it now or in 10 Years when done? And coach just keeps aging. Buy one converted now. You'll  have PLENTY of things to repair, rebuild, modify as long as you have it. Cliff finally figured it out and bought a converted one. What if your health takes a dive in 3 or 4 years and only partially finished?

[Jim Blackwood]

Again, depends on what you want. I've been real happy with building my conversion so far but it was a little scary at first. Lots of bad stuff could have happened but so far I've met every challenge. There is a lot of satisfaction in that. Of course, I'm not everyone and never wanted to be. My 68 years have taught me some mad skills and I have a well and broadly equipped workshop perfectly suited to my abilities. Without that I don't think it would have been such a great idea and certainly would be a bigger challenge. For instance I just put the last coat of urethane on the custom mahogany cabinet doors I built for the custom cabinets I built to go under the custom countertops I built and had Spring Grove Sheet Metal cover in stainless. That was all cabinetry work and I am not a cabinet maker. But some skills cross over. It's not a showpiece but that was never my goal and perfection is and always will be the enemy of good enough. That's not to say it doesn't look good, but I can tell the difference between that and professional work. Hard to say if anyone else will notice.

Next will probably be to build the waste tanks. I have very little experience at all with welding plastic, yet I will be ordering hundreds of dollars worth of 5/16" thick plastic sheet just so I can cut it up into smaller pieces and then try to stick it back together, an entirely new thing for me. Can I do it? If I didn't think so I don't think I would try but who's to say? Tune in next week etc, etc. It just goes on and on that way, practically every thing you touch. Lots of new challenges and lots of new things to learn. This all takes time of course but if you Have the time and the interest it can be pretty rewarding. As rewarding as jumping in a complete CC or something and hitting the road? Maybe. Maybe not.

Jim

[windtrader]

Jim,
I think it's great you have provided a constant and regular presence her, starting from i think even before getting the bus. I remember you stated on day one, this is a five year project. What each person needs to do is some serious soul searching on what they want from doing it from scratch.

It seems there is satisfaction from the challenge of having to ponder, research, evaluate options, develop a design, gather materials, figure out how to build that piece, do it, maybe do it again but you get what you wanted in the end. Repeat for most all larger components of the build.
You also have a wide variety of skills and time to invest in all the necessary steps to do it properly. You must have a place to you can layout all this stuff for a long time. You also demostrate a lot of perserverence and tolerance for adversity.
Sounds like I am heaping a lot of adjulation on you and I am. Fottunately, your health and other distractions in life have not derailed your dream build.
I'd love to tell every new DIY that think about it but go for it. Most won't make it.

That said, you see plenty of skoolies converted so what do they do and think differently that seems to get them on the road? Maybe the level of done and what is built is a lower bar than we busuts.

I sure don't want to send new DIY off discouraged but they really do need to research fully before such a massive undertaking.

[ltcinfantry]

The Temsa is a Turkish bus mostly with parts from China I would not buy one for the long run,a casino here owns 2 and are not happy with the buses for service and parts

Thanks for the advice. They sure look good though. There are several available at the Temsa headquarters in Orlando. I may go look at them just to gauge them and have a basis to compare to others. Again, I'm not in a hurry so will research the crap out it before diving in. As far as parts from China, that almost to impossible to avoid with todays parts shortages...

[ltcinfantry]

Come on!  You guys are suggesting an already converted bus?

Where is the fun in that?

If I can do it, anyone can.

I feel you on this one. I am extremely picky about how things are built. My wife calls this anal retentive.  I also just plain want to do it myself. I get the advice to buy an already converted bus and appreciate everyone's desire to help me avoid the pain of a build, but I wont learn as much by buying a finished product. My travel plans can't be realized for another couple of years when I fully retire. Until I have plenty of time to build.

That said, after I get a chance to research all this, I may decide it's not worth the pain. But for now, the research continues.

[richard5933]

If you go the DIY route I'd suggest you visit and explore as many bus conversions as you can before doing any final planning. Doing this will give you a much more realistic idea of what you'll be working with, which methods & techniques work well, and which only look good on paper but not so much in a bus.

Most bus owners are happy to show off their bus, and depending on where you are there might be quite a few within an hour's drive that you could learn from.

[RJ]

I feel you on this one. I am extremely picky about how things are built. My wife calls this anal retentive.  I also just plain want to do it myself. I get the advice to buy an already converted bus and appreciate everyone's desire to help me avoid the pain of a build, but I wont learn as much by buying a finished product. My travel plans can't be realized for another couple of years when I fully retire. Until I have plenty of time to build.

Itcinfantry -

IIRC, you mentioned that you're in the Orlando area? If so, and after Ian blows thru, perhaps you should do some intelligence gathering research by taking a few relatively short road trips - one down to Stuart, one to San Antonio, and one to Sanford.

Stuart is the FL base for Liberty Coach.

San Antonio is the FL base for Marathon Coaches.

Sanford is FL's base for Featherlite/Vantaré Coaches. It's also the home of Donnie Myers Luxury Coach, who does all types of refurbishments.

I would start at Liberty in Stuart. Go down, take a close look at several of their rigs. Meander thru the interiors, closely looking at how things are put together, the fit and finish, the space utilization, the various layouts. Have your wife poke thru drawers, cabinets - all the household things that appeal to her. Examine the bays, see how they're laid out, look at the plumbing, the genset bay, the house electrical bay, the storage bay. Take copious notes and lots of photos.

Next go to San Antonio to check out the Marathons. Folk say these are often "rolling bordellos," but that type of interior appeals to some people. But, just like at Liberty, look closely at the interior construction, the system integrations, the various floorplans, the layouts in the bays, and so forth. Marathon's philosophy is different than Liberty's, you'll see the contrast. Again, copious notes and lots of photos.

Now it's time for a ride over to Sanford, home of Featherlite/Vantaré and Donnie Myers Luxury Coach. Go to Featherlite first, and take a look at their Vantaré line of conversions. Again, a different philosophy that may, or may not, be along the lines of what you're envisioning. I, personally, have a 30-year-old Vantaré, and I thoroughly enjoy it, especially since I live in mine 24/5/365. I especially like the simplicity of their house systems and the accessibility of items downstairs. More notes and photos again!

To Donnie Myers shop next - he's only a few blocks away from Featherlite. Donnie does a lot of refurbishing of the majors, so he's familiar with just about all the pro conversions out there. The man is a wealth of information, and can give you valuable information concerning what to look for and what to avoid. But he also has a business to run, so be respectful of his time.

These three trips are going to really be an eye-opener, for both you and your wife. You're both going to see that the majority of interiors are bedroom in the back, the bath, the galley, and finally the front lounge. So not a lot of wiggle room, because some item's placement is dependent on downstairs, too (like the toilet being directly over the black water tank, for example.) Also, since you're wife's an interior decorator, she's going to look at the interiors far differently than you will, not only from a decorating standpoint, bus also functionality. (And I'm sure you know about making sure mama's happy!)

From my perspective after 35 years in the bus industry, the best "bang for the buck" right now in the conversion market is a 1995 - 2000, non-slide, forty-foot coach. It will have the more desirable Series 60 Detroit Diesel with the least amount of smog equipment on it, and an Allison automatic transmission, it will be 102" wide, which makes a LOT of difference inside, it's the most popular size, and they can go nearly anywhere a 35-footer can go. I would stick to the two major players - MCI and Prevost, primarily due to parts and service availability nation-wide. My personal preference is also a non-slide out chassis, as they're less prone to water leaks and mechanical issues (they're also often less expensive, since so many people want slide-outs nowadays.)

Now, one last item: You're in FL. That gives you a huge advantage over other people looking for a bus conversion, simply because of the sheer number of coaches in that state. Which also means, should you decide to go the more intelligent route of buying a pro conversion and remodeling, that tremendous deals can be found, especially if you go searching via uncommon routes: auctions, estate sales, consignments, etc. Somebody once said that FL is "God's Waiting Room," thus the opportunity for picking up a rig where the owner has "aged out" of his ability to drive can happen - that's how I got a smokin' deal on my Vantaré!

So there you have it, my nickel's worth of suggestions, but you get 3¢ change!

FWIW & HTH. . . 

RJ

[ltcinfantry]

Itcinfantry -

IIRC, you mentioned that you're in the Orlando area? If so, and after Ian blows thru, perhaps you should do some intelligence gathering research by taking a few relatively short road trips - one down to Stuart, one to San Antonio, and one to Sanford.

Stuart is the FL base for Liberty Coach.

San Antonio is the FL base for Marathon Coaches.

Sanford is FL's base for Featherlite/Vantaré Coaches. It's also the home of Donnie Myers Luxury Coach, who does all types of refurbishments.

I would start at Liberty in Stuart. Go down, take a close look at several of their rigs. Meander thru the interiors, closely looking at how things are put together, the fit and finish, the space utilization, the various layouts. Have your wife poke thru drawers, cabinets - all the household things that appeal to her. Examine the bays, see how they're laid out, look at the plumbing, the genset bay, the house electrical bay, the storage bay. Take copious notes and lots of photos.

Next go to San Antonio to check out the Marathons. Folk say these are often "rolling bordellos," but that type of interior appeals to some people. But, just like at Liberty, look closely at the interior construction, the system integrations, the various floorplans, the layouts in the bays, and so forth. Marathon's philosophy is different than Liberty's, you'll see the contrast. Again, copious notes and lots of photos.

Now it's time for a ride over to Sanford, home of Featherlite/Vantaré and Donnie Myers Luxury Coach. Go to Featherlite first, and take a look at their Vantaré line of conversions. Again, a different philosophy that may, or may not, be along the lines of what you're envisioning. I, personally, have a 30-year-old Vantaré, and I thoroughly enjoy it, especially since I live in mine 24/5/365. I especially like the simplicity of their house systems and the accessibility of items downstairs. More notes and photos again!

To Donnie Myers shop next - he's only a few blocks away from Featherlite. Donnie does a lot of refurbishing of the majors, so he's familiar with just about all the pro conversions out there. The man is a wealth of information, and can give you valuable information concerning what to look for and what to avoid. But he also has a business to run, so be respectful of his time.

These three trips are going to really be an eye-opener, for both you and your wife. You're both going to see that the majority of interiors are bedroom in the back, the bath, the galley, and finally the front lounge. So not a lot of wiggle room, because some item's placement is dependent on downstairs, too (like the toilet being directly over the black water tank, for example.) Also, since you're wife's an interior decorator, she's going to look at the interiors far differently than you will, not only from a decorating standpoint, bus also functionality. (And I'm sure you know about making sure mama's happy!)

From my perspective after 35 years in the bus industry, the best "bang for the buck" right now in the conversion market is a 1995 - 2000, non-slide, forty-foot coach. It will have the more desirable Series 60 Detroit Diesel with the least amount of smog equipment on it, and an Allison automatic transmission, it will be 102" wide, which makes a LOT of difference inside, it's the most popular size, and they can go nearly anywhere a 35-footer can go. I would stick to the two major players - MCI and Prevost, primarily due to parts and service availability nation-wide. My personal preference is also a non-slide out chassis, as they're less prone to water leaks and mechanical issues (they're also often less expensive, since so many people want slide-outs nowadays.)

Now, one last item: You're in FL. That gives you a huge advantage over other people looking for a bus conversion, simply because of the sheer number of coaches in that state. Which also means, should you decide to go the more intelligent route of buying a pro conversion and remodeling, that tremendous deals can be found, especially if you go searching via uncommon routes: auctions, estate sales, consignments, etc. Somebody once said that FL is "God's Waiting Room," thus the opportunity for picking up a rig where the owner has "aged out" of his ability to drive can happen - that's how I got a smokin' deal on my Vantaré!

So there you have it, my nickel's worth of suggestions, but you get 3¢ change!

FWIW & HTH. . . 

RJ

Wow—nice post RJ. Sounds like a really good idea. I didn't know all these places were in Florida—I transplanted here 3 years ago when I retired and got tired of being cold. I'm still in my 50s and in great health so still young enough to do a conversion and have plenty of time to travel. So once things settle down around here we will venture out to these places.

This may be a dumb question but what do you think a good price range is for a used professional conversion? So far when I'm looked at used Class As they are in the $200k-$400k which is way outside my budget. I wanted to have a finished project preferably below $100k. Is this even realistic or do I need to adjust my expectations?

[ltcinfantry]

If you go the DIY route I'd suggest you visit and explore as many bus conversions as you can before doing any final planning. Doing this will give you a much more realistic idea of what you'll be working with, which methods & techniques work well, and which only look good on paper but not so much in a bus.

Most bus owners are happy to show off their bus, and depending on where you are there might be quite a few within an hour's drive that you could learn from.

Richard, thank you. Following yours and RJs recommendations I will do that. I'm very cognizant of layout restrictions related to plumbing, AC, electrical. My wife and I work together on this with me usually being the spoiler with "you can't do this" due to structural constraints. We've don't this with house remodels in the past.

[richard5933]

Richard, thank you. Following yours and RJs recommendations I will do that. I'm very cognizant of layout restrictions related to plumbing, AC, electrical. My wife and I work together on this with me usually being the spoiler with "you can't do this" due to structural constraints. We've don't this with house remodels in the past.

I think this is a good plan. As I saw other buses I often said to myself something like, "Oh - that would have been much easier than what I did."

Good to see how others have conquered a problem, especially if you get to see their 3rd or 4th version and learn what didn't work on the earlier iterations. Saves a lot of time, money, and aggravation.

[luvrbus]

When you go window shopping at the Prevost dealers in FL don't tell the salesman you are looking to spend a 100k,new coaches are loaded with electronics but who needs to sit in a recliner with a remote that controls everything but the toilet,All the electronic in my coach is the only thing I don't like about my Country Coach  they are a PITA for older guys lol