Skoolies vs OTR bus nuts

[RJ]

I'd seriously consider getting an older dual rear axle Crown for a project. They have lots going for them, including being able to get under without worries about air suspension failure (no blocking) and a much better setup for driving on dirt roads or grass.

Richard -

A tandem Crown, like you mentioned, has some of the things you're thinking about, but they also have a few negatives.

99% are mid-engined, either a Cummins or a Detroit. Light duty maintenance is easy, but anything major requires a hoist to drop the engine/transmission.

Being mid-engined, their ground clearance isn't much better than an OTR coach, and driver's have to be especially careful because high-centering severely damages the engine.

Being mid-engined, they have virtually no under-floor storage space.

They have a huge trunk, but the frame rails end just behind the rear axle, so there's no structural support for a heavy-duty hitch w/o major welding. The trunk is specifically designed as a "crush-zone" in case of a rear end accident.

But none of these issues are insurmountable. Donna Marvel and her husband have a fabulous 35' Crown conversion, they've ingeniously overcome the mid-engine issues to create their dream RV.

That being said, the Crown Super IIs are rear-engined with underfloor storage, so they don't have the high-centering issue that the mid-ship Twinkie models have. Most are 6V92s with Allison automatics, too. They make an excellent platform for a skoolie conversion - if you can find one that hasn't been crushed yet because of CA's CARB program.

One thing is for certain - the "cool" factor is off the charts with a Crown "Twinkie"

FWIW & HTH. . .

[dtcerrato]

All this mention of no older rigs in parks which we too experienced especially out in the south west of being prohibitive for many reasons - some unreasonable is why we don't even bother with the "RV Parks" anymore. We don't need or even want the amenities. That's what (our) self containess is all about... We love BLMs, National Forests, Parks, Seashores - you know the reason for the Federal Senior Pass & free admission to boot! Florida State parks are awesome because us senior residents get in for half price but what good is that when they're always booked 6 months in advance! The wife says our boonies 7 acres is the BEST campsite & when we're headed to the opposite corner there's another BEST campsite on that end now! IMHO the greatest places are where people are scarce and four legged animals & nature is abundant. The second 1/2 of the trip North or the 1st 1/2 of the trip South is the best bussing we have ever experienced & look forward to doing it again & again & again if the blasted border ever reopens... Rant over, carry on...

[Iceni John]

Richard -

A tandem Crown, like you mentioned, has some of the things you're thinking about, but they also have a few negatives.

99% are mid-engined, either a Cummins or a Detroit. Light duty maintenance is easy, but anything major requires a hoist to drop the engine/transmission.

Being mid-engined, their ground clearance isn't much better than an OTR coach, and driver's have to be especially careful because high-centering severely damages the engine.

Being mid-engined, they have virtually no under-floor storage space.

They have a huge trunk, but the frame rails end just behind the rear axle, so there's no structural support for a heavy-duty hitch w/o major welding. The trunk is specifically designed as a "crush-zone" in case of a rear end accident.

But none of these issues are insurmountable. Donna Marvel and her husband have a fabulous 35' Crown conversion, they've ingeniously overcome the mid-engine issues to create their dream RV.

That being said, the Crown Super IIs are rear-engined with underfloor storage, so they don't have the high-centering issue that the mid-ship Twinkie models have. Most are 6V92s with Allison automatics, too. They make an excellent platform for a skoolie conversion - if you can find one that hasn't been crushed yet because of CA's CARB program.

One thing is for certain - the "cool" factor is off the charts with a Crown "Twinkie"

FWIW & HTH. . .

That's exactly why I chose a Super II Crown:  rear engine, 8ft-long full-width underfloor storage, lots of empty space underneath for everything else, and mine has the higher-HP 6V92 with Jake and an HT740 (exactly the same drivetrain as a MC9), and above all the legendary Crown build quality.   It's well-equipped (11 gauges, air seat, air door, heated mirrors, etc.), everything important is easily-accessible, and it's still essentially simple (no airbags  -  yeah!).   It rides better than many air-ride buses I've been in, without any wallow or pitch, and I can drive it for hours without feeling tired.   And most importantly, when I got it after 20 years of service it had only about 274,000 miles;  any OTR bus with that mileage is way beyond my price range, and most 20-year old OTR buses have a million miles or more, meaning that lots of their greasy bits are getting due for expensive repair or replacement.   My bus is barely broken in by OTR standards!

Will my conversion be like the typical skoolie conversion?   Heck no!   The interior will be starkly modern and minimalist, a sort of Bauhaus meets Nordic meets executive jet, something that Le Corbusier would be at home in.   So saying, with 2kW of tiltable solar and 400 gallons of tanks it will also be able to boondock for weeks at a time, and reach some BLM lands where OTR buses fear to tread.

After twelve years of working on it I hope to finish it this year after I retire, then you may be seeing it at Quartzsite next year.

John

[someguy]

Not a law YET but here is the Bill.

https://drivinvibin.com/2021/04/15/proposed-texas-senate-bill-criminalizes-rv-parking-overnight/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=proposed-texas-senate-bill-criminalizes-rv-parking-overnight

Doesn't surprise me in the least given the Vanlife explosion.   And the RV explosion that happened during COVID.

[Coach_and_Crown_Guy]

The school buses these people are converting are air rides ,school buses have used air ride since the 60's some had leaf springs .lol I owned a Blue Bird Wonder Lodge with leaf spring it was so rough riding my wife said it would shake the bed sheets off the bed ,even the Crowns went to air bags

I'd like to add my two cents and clarify a little about the use of air ride on school buses in general. The simple answer is that they just don't. The vast majority of all school buses are built on standard medium duty delivery truck glider chassis, and being cheap is the major consideration. They are rough riding and usually built to last about ten years in regular school bus service and a life of about 150-200k miles at most before being too expensive to keep and maintain. These are what are being purchased for conversions mostly. Worn out and usually badly rusted to boot.

I own four Crowns personally and yet I don't consider myself to be a School Bus conversion/owner. Crowns are a distinct breed apart and much closer to a Coach in design and execution. I'm a Crown owner and that is a distinct and different breed apart from the simple School Bus vs. Coach divide.

Yes, Crown built school buses, and that was a major market for them, but they also built the worlds finest Fire Apparatus as well. Los Angeles City and County Fire were almost exclusively Crown only. Many surrounding Fire departments were also exclusive Crown customers, and that market reached far and wide, much as the School bus market did, but maybe not quite as far.

How many of you know that Crown built some extremely fine inter-city coaches, and with all the engineering features of any Coach you can name. Full air-ride, under-floor luggage, rear engine, Air conditioning, the whole package. Do a DuckDuckGo (I don't patronize googles if I can help it) for the Crown Atomic buses built for the Atomic Energy Commission. There are also many great Crown builds for the National parks service using the standard mid-engine design with beautiful coach interiors with parcel racks, reclining coach seats, air-ride and air conditioning too and fluted aluminum siding. They did everything. Look up the highway postal service buses, they were unique and a few have been converted into outstanding RV's. Crown built anything the customer wanted and would pay for. Crown Coach and Body was THE supremely high quality custom vehicle manufacturer who built to whatever the Customer wanted. Hand built by true Craftsmen.

By the way the vast majority of Crown school buses are full spring suspensions. Air ride suspensions were installed on Crowns as an extra cost option but not generally done due to the costs. Two of mine are in fact all air-ride, while the Tandem has it only on the back axles. The 35ft two axle is all springs which was the default standard for most Crowns. They ride much better than any of the other brands and the overall strength and build quality is why they last so long. True million mile, 100 year buses if taken care of, which isn't terribly hard or even expensive when compared to coaches.

I've driven in commercial service most all Coaches and are definitely looking to add a nice MCI when the time comes when I can justify the expense and upkeep it will require. But for now the Crowns are much easier and less expensive to keep and drive. Driving a Crown is definitely the biggest reason to own one. It's like no other bus in the way it handles and offers the driver such a feel for the road and where he's going with it that no other coach can compare. It's very much like a high class expensive sports car in the way they handle at high road speeds, and yes mine are capable of way more than 75-80mph. The tandem already does 80+ with no top end in sight, and so will the 35ft one when I get around to changing the rear end, or converting it into a 10sp OD from it's current 10spd direct. I may even do both, I'll wait to see how it all comes out. I have options.

The real answer is that a Crown in good condition is a total blast on the open road and when the time comes to take one on a less improved road I can attest to many decades of experience where I've taken Crowns into places where a passenger car would probably not make it, note I didn't say 4wd, but a 2wd car. Crowns are massively capable and extremely maneuverable in tight quarters and on very nasty road conditions, that's why I own them.

Also as RJ said they are an extreme challenge when it comes to building out any conversion and require great ingenuity in where to place tanks, house batteries, electrical, beds, furniture, etc. Really it comes down to how they might best be used.  In point of fact I'm finding out that the Tandem 40ft Crown with it's two rear wheel humps inside are giving me grief and actually losing me several square feet of usable flat floor to build out things inside. I also have a very nice 35ft 2axle Crown that allows for more flat floor to build with, even though the overall length is slightly less.

The final consideration as far as I'm concerned is that I intend to build the Crowns out for those missions where the destinations will be probably less improved roads and mountains and places where a Jeep would feel at home since I consider them to be Jeeps in what they can do. Camping, boon-docking, total off grid open country, where it is right at home with the needed amenities built in but not overly luxurious, functionality is the watchword. A self contained, mobile, tent on wheels.

I'm always looking for a good Coach to buy and recently have passed on a couple, but the time will come when I'll have a good one. The goal for that will be for a more open road capable and maybe off road too, but it will be meant for the less rough and ready, but more glamorous but still functional ventures. Always the actual driving of, and road trip, will be the main reason to take any of my little fleet out for a jaunt. Not sure how I'll decide which one to use, should be interesting.

Being a commercial driver all my life has taught me that a well maintained and well engineered vehicle is all the reward one needs when doing any kind of road trip, the adventures and destinations become merely the excuse to take it out in the first place. Being solid and capable is paramount and the necessity of getting me and mine all back home safe and sound with minimal drama on the road, with no breakdowns, or meeting the various flavors of Road Pirates out there. Happy Trails.

[dtcerrato]

Doesn't surprise me in the least given the Vanlife explosion.   And the RV explosion that happened during COVID.

Not to mention the butt brains who pull into a Walmart or wherever they find a place to park and roll out stuff like they're permanent & or dump tanks in storm drains - plenty of them ruin it for all...

[luvrbus]

I don't see many converting older school buses most are around 2000 models electronic engines and transmission with air ride ,the roof mounted AC units will freeze your butt off ,I have a  64 model flat nose Carpenter with a 534 Ford engine that is air ride .I watched a scrap yard here crushing Crowns with Cummins and Detroit engines makes you sick .I wanted the 35 ft  Crown with a 8.2 Detroit which was new so bad  I offered double the scrap price and they crushed it anyways   

[Dave5Cs]

Red Skeleton's Crown coach!

https://www.rvusa.com/blog/throwback-thursday-vintage-rv-1960-crown-coach/

[luvrbus]

The NAU in Flagstaff had 2 Crown inter city buses I don't know where they ended up at but they were nice buses with polished siding

[dtcerrato]

Is the skin on a crown steel or aluminum?

[luvrbus]

Is the skin on a crown steel or aluminum?

The siding looked to aluminum over steel

[Boomer]

One of the NAU Crowns was converted nicely.  Have not seen the fellow on the boards for quite a while, maybe he will chime in.  Here's a pic of the Crown I owned, 1965 ex-INL from Idaho.  Really have a soft spot for Crowns especially after rebuilding this one, too bad the Idaho salt damn near ruined it.  It's at Bus Boys now.

[Coach_and_Crown_Guy]

Is the skin on a crown steel or aluminum?

The answer for this is, yes. Like all Crowns, it was whatever the original customer wanted it to be. I've seen both Aluminum and Stainless used for siding. The real sides of the Crowns were usually Aluminum and Steel with the fluted steel right under the windows and the rest down to the bottom were slightly curved aluminum panels. The flashy fluted siding would be placed over this, but there were no absolutes in how a Crown was configured.

Look closely at some Crowns both school and tour buses and you'll sometimes see the cool metal pieces put over the vertical window posts with the forward leaning angle on them. These were merely screwed onto the vertical posts and added a measure of visual streamlining to the lines of the bus. Some of course had actual slanted highway style windows installed depending on the intended use for the Crown. The attached pics show Aluminum and Stainless siding as well as fake highway window dressing and true highway windows. Whatever was to the Customers request. 

Some School districts even specified that the whole side was to be steel instead of the usual aluminum, since that was a cheaper material. I've even seen all steel sidewalls without the patented Crown Dry Wall installation under the windows. Madness, actually, and showed how penny pinching bean counter fools at the Districts managed to ruin perfectly good Crowns as they rusted away much faster than normal with all that steel in place and sitting water to boot, they were useless in a much shorter time and most of them are now long gone. That's the fate of a lot of Gilligs as well since they were mostly steel and used very little aluminum in their structures.

[luvrbus]

You guys are forgetting the Gillig Robert Tassi has the nicest one around with the mid ship 6-71 lol you can look at it and see the $$$$$$$ spent. FWIW Country Coach used the Gillig chassis for a platform for their RV's for years before building their own 

[dtcerrato]

The answer for this is, yes. Like all Crowns, it was whatever the original customer wanted it to be. I've seen both Aluminum and Stainless used for siding. The real sides of the Crowns were usually Aluminum and Steel with the fluted steel right under the windows and the rest down to the bottom were slightly curved aluminum panels. The flashy fluted siding would be placed over this, but there were no absolutes in how a Crown was configured.

Look closely at some Crowns both school and tour buses and you'll sometimes see the cool metal pieces put over the vertical window posts with the forward leaning angle on them. These were merely screwed onto the vertical posts and added a measure of visual streamlining to the lines of the bus. Some of course had actual slanted highway style windows installed depending on the intended use for the Crown. The attached pics show Aluminum and Stainless siding as well as fake highway window dressing and true highway windows. Whatever was to the Customers request. 

Some School districts even specified that the whole side was to be steel instead of the usual aluminum, since that was a cheaper material. I've even seen all steel sidewalls without the patented Crown Dry Wall installation under the windows. Madness, actually, and showed how penny pinching bean counter fools at the Districts managed to ruin perfectly good Crowns as they rusted away much faster than normal with all that steel in place and sitting water to boot, they were useless in a much shorter time and most of them are now long gone. That's the fate of a lot of Gilligs as well since they were mostly steel and used very little aluminum in their structures.

Your passion for Crowns sounds similar as our passion with our GM PD4104. The Crowns are a special breed - We've always had a soft spot for the Wanderlodge & the Gillig & the Crown. Sounds like the Crowns had lots of options available more than other busses.