Speaking of Green new deal and our buses

[CrabbyMilton]

I never said it was free but some people seem to think it is. These places of business that are providing complementary charging spaces for EV's are doing themselves a disservice over the long term. Never in my life did I go to the store and have an employee come out with a fuel can and dump gasoline in my tank. Why should EV's be so special?

[richard5933]

First, the gas station as we know it took decades to develop. They didn't just magically pop up one day. In the very early days, automobile owners had to drive to bulk depots and buy it in bottles and cans. The infrastructure took time to build out, just like is happening now.

http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Environment/E_Casestudy/E_casestudy8.htm

Second, there are lots of places which had some pretty decent giveaways and incentives over the past decades/century. They may not have pumped free fuel into your car, but even here in SE Wisconsin you can still get a really decent discount for fuel if you shop in their store first. In some states the discounts are even bigger where rules permit.

The stores that are currently offering free EV charging are doing it for one reason - it brings in customers. Mostly it brings in customers with spare cash to spend too.

Anyone that thinks the current system of fueling internal combustion engines has always paid its own way needs to look a bit deeper. There are financial incentives provided to the oil and gas industry, and there have been for decades.

So, I'll ask again to the naysayers in the group who insist that EVs are not ready for prime time...

What's your plan for moving forward?

[Jim Blackwood]

I never said it can't be done. But, there are huge issues and personal attacks aren't going to change that and it is starting to sound like we are headed that way, so you guys be careful there. It's the last resort of the losing side of the debate team, we all know that.

Gas stations did not start out with mega-million dollar refueling complexes, and they aren't anywhere close to them now. But EV's are going to need them unless you can come up with a better way to do things.

This is why I said battery swapping is not ready for prime time. Can it be made ready? Who knows, but ignoring the facts won't suddenly make it happen. The logistics are just impossible once you start looking at what has to be done to make it happen.

The only logical approach requires an in depth analysis of the entire transportation system and I have no doubt that is being done, but to a large degree this is nothing more or less than a political hot potato. I don't argue that things like emissions concerns haven't improved things for us all, and yes they were necessary. But this isn't something that can or should happen overnight. There are good alternatives out there. For instance, one new technology uses direct injection of hydrogen to double the power, economy, and cleanliness of diesel engines, meeting and exceeding the proposed California emissions regs. Very likely cheaper than EV and certainly applicable to OTR trucking as well as most other transportation apps. And since hydrogen can be produced by electrolysis there's a good place to use your excess electricity once everyone trades in their EVs.

Jim 

[Lin]

I find Musk to be an interesting guy.  He has actually changed the world in several ways.  He transformed the banking industry with Paypal, the space industry with SpaceX, and the automotive industry with Tesla.  I may even be buying a Tesla solar roof since I think solar will pay for me (if I live ten years) and I need a roof anyway.

Since Tesla, all the majors have driven deeply into EV.  This, of course, represents massive investment.  The cars and range are steadily improving, and I see no reason to think that is going to change.  There certainly are obstacles to be overcome before they will be for everyone and all applications, but it does appear that we are headed that way. I personally think that fast charging will be the breakthrough that is needed.  As is, I already know people that have bought EV's and rave about them.  I would not mind having a Tesla myself if they were about 1/10th the price.

[Fred Mc]

"What's your plan for moving forward?"
And that's exactly the problem.We seem hell bent to destroy the oil and gas industry and the ICE BEFORE the alternate is fully implemented.  It appears as though Texas has learned that the hard way with their power grid..
And here in BC they are trying to scuttle a huge hydro electric project while at the same time forcing new homes to have an ev plug at their house. Where do they think the huge increase in electricity use from ev's is going to come from?

[Nova Eona]

"What's your plan for moving forward?"
And that's exactly the problem.We seem hell bent to destroy the oil and gas industry and the ICE BEFORE the alternate is fully implemented.  It appears as though Texas has learned that the hard way with their power grid..
And here in BC they are trying to scuttle a huge hydro electric project while at the same time forcing new homes to have an ev plug at their house. Where do they think the huge increase in electricity use from ev's is going to come from?

I don't know how to tell you this, but no one is destroying the oil and gas industries - both are alive and well, and being subsidized by your own tax dollars to the tune of billions despite massive profits every year.  As was beaten around exhaustively in the other thread, the events in Texas have practically nothing to do with green energy (we have windmills running in Antarctica), it's just being used as a scapegoat to keep greedy deregulators' necks off the chopping block.  No one is suggesting we need to switch to EVs overnight, and no one is saying energy is free.  I still have not heard anyone suggest a transportation future which does not include a huge amount of EVs, regardless of the amount of innovation needed to get there.

[benherman1]

I never said it was free but some people seem to think it is. These places of business that are providing complementary charging spaces for EV's are doing themselves a disservice over the long term. Never in my life did I go to the store and have an employee come out with a fuel can and dump gasoline in my tank. Why should EV's be so special?

Go ahead and look up how much it costs that business to charge a customers car for an hour (assuming it is pulling full charge the whole time they are sitting at that restaurant) Now think about their profits vs the restaurant across the street that all the EV owners aren't going to because they don't have chargers. Once everyone has them I'll bet they will become something similar to a toll parking spot and charge by how long you are connected. Until then the cost to charge a car is nothing compared to bringing customers in.

[richard5933]

"What's your plan for moving forward?"
And that's exactly the problem.We seem hell bent to destroy the oil and gas industry and the ICE BEFORE the alternate is fully implemented.  It appears as though Texas has learned that the hard way with their power grid..
And here in BC they are trying to scuttle a huge hydro electric project while at the same time forcing new homes to have an ev plug at their house. Where do they think the huge increase in electricity use from ev's is going to come from?

It's not so much the goal to destroy the oil and gas industry, just to eventually make it redundant.

I think that even the most ardent EV supporters acknowledge that there is going to be a substantial overlap period as EVs come of age and become a larger piece of the national fleet. During that time it's going to be quite important to still have a fully functional oil & gas industry and fuel station system.

But, we've already seen the beginning of the changeover. In my reading about this online earlier today, I found this story about the first US gas station which converted to EV charging only. https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a29265643/electric-only-gas-station/

This is going to become more numerous in the coming years. Truck stops are already starting to install EV charging stations for trucks in some areas and I expect this to take off as more and more EVs hit the road.

[Nova Eona]

One factor to consider as well is that charging methods need not be mutually exclusive - of course stores and restaurants will eventually charge for use of a charging station, but this will significantly reduce the load on the EV 'gas stations' - how often will you need to stop anywhere for a full charge when you're being topped up not just at home but also at half the places you stop to run errands?  For comparison, how convenient would it be if it was possible to have a restaurant top up the tank in your ICE vehicle while you're inside having a meal?

It's not hard to imagine that future 'gas stations' will have a few battery-swappers or fast chargers for the few drivers who are going a long distance or have somehow gotten unusually low on charge, while the majority of people may go weeks or months without ever stopping at one since they can get topped up almost anywhere else.  Particularly with the continuing advances in battery tech, it's entirely possible that drivers will simply not have to worry about the state of their battery unless they've been driving for a very long time.

[windtrader]

Man,
I couldn't even read thru it all. There is no doubt the storms are making more folks get cranky and cabin fever seems going wild.


Again, this is a paradigm shift in fueling personal vehicles. Most of your charges over time will be done at home! Today, every vehicle used by consumers has to fuel at a commercial certified fueling station. That is why there are so many stations and pumps. Once most charge at home, many of the remaining corner fueling stations will go through another repurposing, like it did in the 70's, from gas stations on all four corners down to one.


Swappable batteries only make sense where time to recharge is too short. There may be edge cases where this is required but most won't go this way.


Then the massive wave if how we transport ourselves on a daily basis is like a tsunami still forming out in the vast ocean. Two trends are going to fundamentally change the entire industry. AI via self aware and self guided technology is basically already here. Needs more tweaks, slogging through the regulatory morass, and consumer resistance, but it's coming. Then you look at the Uber model and replace humans being called to drive you around with an EV auto drive vehicle.


There are plenty of naysayers as evidenced by crowing about just one hurdle to clear mentally much less several. What is happening now, just follow the money, massive investments and bets on this stuff. The day will arrive when you don't buy and maintain your own car. You simply request a ride via the AI in your home (already here: Google Assistant/Home and Apple Siri, etc.). It connects to Uber that dispatches an autonomous EV to pick you up and deliver you to your destination. Your payment is already deducted via electronic payment gateway. You can ask for private direct point to point service or shared ride with a extra stop or two along the route, saving some coin.


Just not sure why folks either deny or resist accepting what is coming. It is not even speculation. Like I said, just dig into the financial markets and look where the billions and billions of capital is going, and listen to what major global vehicle makers are bringing to market today and their stated goals over the coming years.


Then there is the last mile delivery challenge which is quickly being solved, Amazon is now commercially starting drone delivery on a limited basis. It is only going to grow massively and rapidly as soon as the regulatory swamp gets paid off to clear the air routes to make this happen.


Then lastly, the big one - WTF do people do as the millions of these lower paid service jobs disappear.


Oh - icing on the cake - food service is going automated, then you connect with autonomous deliver and you nearly take out all humans in those sector.


We face some truly existential threats to the fabric of our capitalist, democratic system. Now that is speculation what sort of revolution occurs and who wields to power over it all.


Good day, gents. I've got my staging spot secure, on the edge of civilization. This year is the year to secure the totally off grid site, ideally 100 miles from the nearest highway. That will be remote enough to survive the coming collapse.

[sledhead]

I agree that the ev's are coming but it will take 5-10 years before there is maybe 25 % of them on the road . But I do not think there will be very many large trucks on the road that are ev's 

I think the nay sayers need to burn the red hat as that time is over

just my 2 cents worth

dave   

[chessie4905]

Don't worry, the ev owners will start paying through the nose in a few years when they start charging for road use fees, and convenient charging. That great benefit will quickly start shrinking.
Major manufacturers are switching to ev's because fuel economy and emission regulations are getting too severe and costly not to start making electric vehicles. No emission or fuel economy costs to deal with. Just wait. Even with all electric vehicles, states like California will start passing laws to improve battery range, discharge emissions from batteries, etc. The CARB and all its officials isn't going to disappear. Job security, you know?

[Jim Blackwood]

And then there is the entire underground issue of hazardous waste disposal. We've only just touched the tip of the iceberg there.

Jim

[lostagain]

Jim, I have been in the gas station business for 30 years, and I can tell you that your 1/2 to 1 million cost to build one is way low. It is more like 4 to 5 million.

Also I have been researching fast chargers to offer at one of our stations. The cost is huge. The ROI isn't there. I am talking fast charger, not just an outlet in the side of the building. Also the technology isn't mature enough yet to make the investment worthwhile. This is something that large corporations and governments can afford with their deep pockets. Not for little independents like us.

[windtrader]

This is something that large corporations and governments can afford with their deep pockets. Not for little independents like us.

And that is exactly what is going on now. Federal tax credit is still $7,500 for the following. Note Tesla no longer qualifies for any tax credit.

The government is going to subsidize the EV industry for a number of years. Whether they extend credits to existing petroleum businesses is a massive battle I suspect. With so many fossil fuel haters it'd be no surprise the government offers help to new non-petrol industry. But again you need to think out of the box as there is going to be far fewer standalone commercial charging stations. Between home and work and shopping stations, I just don't see nearly as many needed like gas stations are today.


All-electric vehicles
Make and Model[/t]Full Tax Credit
Audi e-tron Sportback$7,500
Audi e-tron SUV$7,500
BMW i3 Sedan$7,500
BMW i3s$7,500
Fiat 500e$7,500
Ford Focus EV$7,500
Ford Mustang Mach-E$7,500
Hyundai Ioniq Electric$7,500
Hyundai Kona Electric$7,500
Jaguar I-Pace$7,500
Kia Niro EV$7,500
Kia Soul Electric$7,500
Mercedes-Benz B-Class EV$7,500
MINI Cooper S E Hardtop (2020-2021)$7,500
Mitsubishi i-MiEV$7,500
Nissan LEAF$7,500
Porsche Taycan 4S$7,500
Porsche Taycan Turbo EV$7,500
Smart fortwo Coupe$7,500
Smart fortwo Cabrio$7,500
Volkswagen e-Golf$7,500
Volkswagen ID.4 EV$7,500
XC40 Recharge Pure Electric$7,500


EDIT:
While poking around I just discovered CA is offering another $2,000 credit for new
EV
California Clean Fuel Reward [is available starting November 2020 and] is limited to participating dealers. Reward amount varies based on battery capacity. See your dealer or https://www.cleanfuelreward.com for details.
California Clean Vehicle rebate amounts are as follows: Plug-in Hybrid - $1,000; all Electric - $2,000; and Fuel Cell - $4,500.  Must be based in California and purchase or lease from a California dealer. Must own or lease vehicle for at least 36 months. Additional restrictions apply. Eligibility is based on income and may be subject to change. See https://cleanvehiclerebate.org or your dealer for details.

That's nearly $10,000 of credit back. Makes you want to take a look?