Busnut opinions needed.

[Barn Owl]

All Busnuts,

On the BNO board there is a poster named Dutch that is looking at a bus just south of me. I offered to help by taking a trip down to give it a look over. He is new to buses and has a lot of basic questions that I have tried to answer. I have asked him permission to post some of the email in order to get the opinions of everyone here. Feel free to correct any misinformation that I might have given.

BTW, I tried to give and honest assessment from a business point of view and realize that there are statements that some might strongly disagree with and some statements that I am not all that sure of. That is why I am putting this out there to educate both Dutch and myself, possibly others. Class is now in session, let the education begin!

Thanks,

Laryn

****Note: I have edited some of the content to aid in clarity and for other obvious reasons.

The three buses that are being discussed:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=001&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=110088392467&rd=1,1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-GM-BUS-RV-CONVERSION-READY-TO-GO-4106_W0QQitemZ190087353952QQihZ009QQcategoryZ50056QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1977-40ft-MCI-Entertainer-Camper-Tour-Conversion-Bus_W0QQitemZ180091275296QQihZ008QQcategoryZ50056QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Dutch and I spoke on the phone the previous night and this is where I started the following email conversation:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
busnut info   Inbox
Feb 28

he laryn
great talking to ya yesterday,,
here the info
thanks for any and all help
/////////////////////////////////////////////
(Bus #1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=001&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=110088392467&rd=1,1)
Current owner wrote:
"just put new tires on the front and just last year a new clutch.I would not have any reservations about setting out for anywhere on this Bus.I also just recently replaced the Primary and Secondary fuel filters.The longest trip I ever drove it on was from here to Baltimore MD, approx.600 miles round trip.We checked it once and found it to be getting about 9 miles/ gal. fuel.Let me know if you have any other questions. Doug  Daytime work #276-###-#### evenings#276-###-####."

the other 4106 on ebay>>>>> is it good or better???

(Bus #2
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-GM-BUS-RV-CONVERSION-READY-TO-GO-4106_W0QQitemZ190087353952QQihZ009QQcategoryZ50056QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
thanks
dutch

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mar 1

Dutch,

For the money, I like the Martinsville bus.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mar 1 

he laryn

thanks for the advice
a 1977 mci popped on ebay asking price is 10000
something to concidder??
Thanks

Dutch

(Bus #3
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1977-40ft-MCI-Entertainer-Camper-Tour-Conversion-Bus_W0QQitemZ180091275296QQihZ008QQcategoryZ50056QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mar 1

Dutch,

I'm at work so I will have to reply in more detail later. If it were me and I was doing this as a band/business I would get a MCI. I don't know what your money situation is, but I could give you numerous reasons to go with the MCI over the GM you are looking at (and I like GM as you know). I will be surprised if that coach makes it through the auction before someone exercises the "buy it now" option. The one I see is green and the price is $12,500. Is that the same one? Shoot me the link.

Laryn

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

he laryn
yeah that green one with the dixie sign upfront.
my budget is really thight but if you think for the long run(say 100000-200000)miles that i will have way less problems>
but the mci has no generator(extra cost)
i dont know yiou say parts are way easier to get???
is also more reliable???
thanks
dutch

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mar 2

Dutch,

I will try to list some of the advantages of the MCI over the GM

1. MCI is still in business making buses and therefore still supports their products
2. Because MCI is still in business they have a higher resale value/easier to sell
3. This MCI is 15 years newer
4. MCI does not look as dated and therefore more professional
5. Lots and lots of parts everywhere, GM harder to find.
6. Many mechanics that are familiar with and able to work on MCI; not so with GM
7. Looks like this one is a MCI-8 so it can easily be updated to smooth skin and look very euro if you wanted that type of look.
8. This one looks very straight, clean, and well taken care of.
9. It might be twice the money of the 4106 but it is four times the bus
10. Much larger cargo bays; higher, and three bays instead of two
11. MCI is 40 foot vs. GM4106 is 35 foot long (more room in MCI)
12. Generator would be used to run the A/C unit on the GM, if the MCI's A/C is working you do not need the generator. Original bus A/C is very powerful and cools very quickly. If you live in the south it would be very nice since it will cool the bus in only a few min. And if your band is successful you can add a generator later if you really need one.
13. MCI uses a lot of stainless steel, so rust is not a big issue.
14. Many, many more engine and transmission options available because MCI is a T-drive vs. GM V-drive
15. Again, Wow! very straight and clean, looking down the sides and across the front, up the stairs. clean, clean, clean
16. GM is somewhat a "poor man's bus" because they are so inexpensive.

It looks like the "buy it now" option is no longer available, so it will be interesting to see what it will go for. Very nice for an inexpensive entertainer

FWIW

Laryn

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

he laryn

thanks for the info
one question
with the ac for the mci..when i'm parked somwhere and turn the main engine off the ac doesnt work right??
i need a generator to have a/c then  right???
thanks
dutch

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Mar 2

Dutch, 

Yes, but you can add that without much trouble. The seller for the MCI on ebay says that it is set up for a generator. For the cost of being stranded one time waiting for parts, trying to find a mechanic, missing a gig due to a breakdown on an old bus, you could add a genset and roof A/C to the MCI. Not to mention not having the stress to worry about. Old buses like mine are more of a hobby in my opinion. If I had to depend on it for my job, or needed it because I had a band, I would have a MCI mostly for the reasons in that email I gave you last night. The GM in martinsville has a gas onan (same as the one on my bus) and in this day and age is very dated and not much to brag on. The gas Onan tends to be high maintenance because if not taken care of it develops carb problems from the gas going stale and varnishing. They are supposed to be run (exercised) once a month with a load to keep this from happening. It has been my experience that the parts on the Onan are a bit pricey as well. The bottom line is money, if all you can afford is the GM then it would be better than nothing. I have one sitting in front of my house and my father has two, and I like the GMs, but I need to be honest in my assessment of their limitations. An older bus is cheaper to buy now but can be more difficult to depend on and cost more in the long run because of time lost, parts, etc. Buy a nicer bus now and you can spend more time doing what you like (making music) instead of dealing with maintaining an antique. If you have to us the GM until you can upgrade then thats ok, there will be many, many more buses for sale down the road.

Laryn

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
he laryn
thanks for the great info

but the gm has a detroit engine  and they are still in business correct??
we have a steady cashflow of $4000-$5000 a month once we are on the road

dutch

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dutch,

Yes, both have the same engine so that is not a concern. The DD two stroke is a great engine, but all bus owners are finding it harder to find mechanics that can work on them. It's the other little things like electrical, body parts, etc., that would be different. I was approaching my comments as if I were looking at it as a business consideration. The GM is a nice and fun bus, I love mine. Buying a bus can be a very complicated decision, ask everyone you can that might know something about buses so you can get and make as an informed decision as possible. I will help in anyway I can.

Laryn

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mar 2

you already helped me more than i can ask for.

with driving about 9000miles a month(which diesel's should love!!)
i'm expecting to spend about $2000 a month on parts and oil,is this to much or to little to expect,
and before i even drive a  mile i will have a mechanic make it in great shape.
and i'm bringing it back after every tour(9000-12000)miles for another mayor tune up.
i',m planning on pampering the bus(if i buy the gm or mci )
thanks

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dutch,

I would be surprised if you would spend 2k a month on maintenance but there is a poster on the MAK bb named Busted Knuckle that would know for sure, he operates a charter company. Cost of oil and filter is approximately $100-$120. To have a shop do it plan on around $200. Dutch, to be honest, if you are planning on 9k miles a month you need to look for a very good bus. If you can budget 2k for repairs then you can afford a good bus. The more information I get I think this should be an easy decision for you. With your permission I would like to put these questions on the MAK bb (or you can) so you can take advantage of the huge knowledge base that is available to you there. I will also send you some links that might help. With the information you gave above I would only look for a bus like an MCI. But, if you are still looking to get the GM south of me, I will still try to go down there for you and look it over. Unless you are in a big hurry, you will be better off waiting, and educating yourself on buses. I hope this is a help.

Laryn


http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php

http://pardo.net/bus-0035/buses.html

http://busforsaleguide.com/bus-conversion-for-sale.htm

http://www.heartlandbus.com/coaches.cfm
http://www.sellabus.com/
http://www.busnuts.com/classic_buses4sale.htm
http://www.busconversions.com/classifieds.htm
http://www.tejascoach.com/consignbus.html
http://www.coachinfo.com/AllAboutBuses/GMC_Info.html
http://users.cwnet.com/~thall/mci.htm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

he laryn

man you are amazing
all the info you are giving me.thanks
you can put everything we discussed on the board for info.
also we are in a bit of a rush since our touryear starts april 5th 2007.
until then we have limited funds and once on the road we have as mentioned before a $2000-$4000 spending limit a month on repair.
dutch

---------------------------------------------------

[TomC]

All three buses look like simple low cost conversions that who knows what kind of insulation, wiring, plumbing was used.  Yes these are low cost buses.  But unless you are willing to spend LOTS of time and money bringing them up to something more contemporary, I'd advise looking at a bus in better shape for more money.  You'll ultimately spend less in the end. 
The 4106 is a nice bus, and both in Ebay look good, but have very dated interiors, and using gasoline generators (pain in the butt to get dual fuels and keep the Onan tuned and running-I know-I had them on my big rig truck for 12 years {3 of them over time}).  Also, the GMC is not made anymore so you should be very mechanical to keep them running-although they are very good buses.  The MCI also gets my vote since they are still being made, have a conventional inline engine drivetrain (as opposed to the V drive).
Highly recommend you look at a bus that has the correct power train that you want, rather than what is pretty inside (inside is easy to change, engine/transmission isn't and is very expensive).  Also-and this coming from an X-truck driver that drove 1.3 million miles with always a 13 spd manual transmission (I still think the 13/18spd is the best manual transmission), get a bus with a turbo engine and Allison automatic.  While it won't get as good fuel mileage as the manual, you typically are not going to drive more than 5-10,000 miles a year.  But the driving pleasure from an automatic causes a smile on my face everytime I drive my bus.
Just to show how much fooling around with the engines can cost, when I first bought the bus, had the engine overhauled which involved boring the block to true the cylinder liners and replaced one head.  That was $8,700.00.  Recently, had the engine turbocharged which involved again pulling the engine cradle and having the engine gone through to make sure everything was right for turboing; having an air to air custom intercooler made; having the turbo plumbed up; have the radiator recored with a bigger core; bigger muffler and air cleaner; and while I was at it had the transmission rebuilt-that cost $17,000.  So once again, get the bus with the correct power train that you want, or can comfortably live with, then worry about the interior.  Good Luck, TomC

[dutch]

thanks for the reply

the inside is a piece of cake for me to converse to my need.the engine is the bad part i can do an oil change and collant change and change hoses and filters but that is it.
my startup budget is very limited($11000)
but once my band is on the road we have enough money to spend on upgrades and repairs.
before i leave for our 9000mile trip across country i will have it tuned up in as good condition as it can be.
dutch

[dutch]

i know that engine work that has to be done on the 4106 is hard (to find a mechanic)
but what about like breakjobs and airbags and axle work  is that not something any mechanic can work on??
thanks

[Barn Owl]

Dutch,

I don't think those things would be much of a problem for a competent mechanic. As you have probably seen by now, a bus can be like a horse. Sometimes the least expensive part is buying it.

Laryn

[Green-Hornet]

The whole EBay thing for me puts me off. Especially for a major purchase like this. Sight unseen and time wise, you might be tempted to pay too much money just because the aution is about to end and someone else might want it too. I would wiat til I could look at it for myself.I would go with either a dealer or private seller if at all possible.  Personally I would think harder about looking for a decent seated coach and convert it as you need. Rather than spending hard earned cash on something someone else did that you will have to pull apart anyway to be sure it was done right. You KNOW it is done right if you do it yourself. Probably gonna save you money in the long run. Good MCI or Prevosts seem to be available for decent money from several places.

[HighTechRedneck]

The whole EBay thing for me puts me off. Especially for a major purchase like this. Sight unseen and time wise, you might be tempted to pay too much money just because the aution is about to end and someone else might want it too. I would wiat til I could look at it for myself.I would go with either a dealer or private seller if at all possible.  Personally I would think harder about looking for a decent seated coach and convert it as you need. Rather than spending hard earned cash on something someone else did that you will have to pull apart anyway to be sure it was done right. You KNOW it is done right if you do it yourself. Probably gonna save you money in the long run. Good MCI or Prevosts seem to be available for decent money from several places.

That is generally good advice that I would agree with.  But in this case, he is already in a bad position, he needs it road ready next month and has limited up front money ($11K).   There are some positives working for him though.  It sounds like there are several capable people that will be preparing it instead of just one or two people.  And, he has referenced a rather large monthly budget allowance for bus maintenance.  As long as the bus he gets is basically reliable and functional domestically, then they can refine/upgrade as they go.

With the help of good people like Laryn checking the buses out before he bids, eBay is a good enough place.  That is where I got my RTS and I am fully satisfied.

[NJT 5573]

Buy for low miles and newer technology. If you have $11,000 a RTS would be a real smart choice. There is a huge amount of support @ the yahoo groups, mechanics can still be found to work on one and he could concieveably get a lot of bus for his money. He really needs a $30,000 MCI 102 C3 with 4 stroke power as time goes on. Find a diamond to polish to begin with because it's hard to polish a turd and there is no reason to throw away good money on maintence that will go on forever. Why not finance and get an investment with a future and dependability. I bet MAK has something that will make him smile.

[dutch]

he highteckredneck
your right on the spot regarding my situation.no cash now but once on the road  cash enough.and njt unfortunatly i have no financing options since i moved to the states 4 years ago and you establish credit AFTER 5-7 years.
there is nobody who can finance me  trust me i  tried a million places same answer always.
and i got you guys to help me so what more can i ask for?
dutch

[John E. Smith]

Bus #3 is a beauty, but unless the MCI was re-done down to the structural tube, I would shy away from it in the EBay situation.  It is a 1977 from the eastern states -- it could very easily have cancer rust under the rear cap and in the engine cradle area.  They are susceptible to that, especially East Coast busses that see salt in the winter.  And I don't think the structural tube in a 1977 model is made of stainless -- I think that was a later improvement because of the susceptibility to rusting in this area.

Re-tubing the rear of an MCI is a very costly proposition that requires taking the bus completely down to the skeleton.