Used coach buyers remorse...

[Jim Blackwood]

The first part of the job is to select the coach. If you don't have the coach at least picked out you never will be able to determine the actions needed in anything more than a general way. Lots of pros and cons for each brand but picking a brand and a model is the first big step. Are you really, really, and I mean REALLY comfortable with equipment like CAN bus networks and associated types of communication gear that will be found in the newer coaches? If not thoroughly versed in these systems that can be a nightmare well beyond your wildest imaginings. (Did you know that there are some cars that become totaled if the communications cable is cut? Unbelievable.)

The value point of different brands will be a bit different, if that is a concern. For instance, with MCI a mid 90's coach should have the DDEC4 which is from all accounts reliable and relatively easy to deal with, and in other ways results in about the best bang for your buck. Modern enough to have most of the goodness, old enough to be affordable and not use bleeding edge technology which is always expensive and difficult. Prevost tends to cost more for the same stuff but it's sort of like designer jeans. Your @$# looks just as good in the Wranglers but doesn't have the fancy design on the pockets. It's your time and money, spend it well.

Jim

[someguy]

Are you really, really, and I mean REALLY comfortable with equipment like CAN bus networks and associated types of communication gear that will be found in the newer coaches? If not thoroughly versed in these systems that can be a nightmare well beyond your wildest imaginings. (Did you know that there are some cars that become totaled if the communications cable is cut? Unbelievable.)

Yes I am.  Have done some CAN bus hacking as a matter of fact.   

Guess what ?  All newer vehicles have CAN buses in them.  Several, in fact.  And if the right CAN bus goes down, for whatever reason, the vehicle won't run.

BTW, how is the throttle cable on your Series 60 working these days ?  Oh, I forgot... there isn't one.  Fuel control is electronic on the Series 60. And the C13.  And the ISM/ISX.  I'll take any one of these engines over a GM 2 stroke, any day.  And I grew up around GM 2 strokes, know them like the back of my hand.

Given the choice of troubleshooting a thick cable full of individual wires and a CAN Bus connecting 2 modules, I'll take the CAN Bus every day of the week.

[windtrader]

but over the decades I've gradually begun to realize that it is often better to enjoy the use of something that is less than ideal, than it is to strive to create that ideal and not get to enjoy it. I think that principle applies even more in bus conversions than it does there.

I've only been around a few years but what seems to be true is there is a much higher number of stalled bus conversions in process and those being sold unfinished than the number of current and active DIY from scratch projects.


Upon reflection the biggest sigh of relief for me making the decision to buy converted is time. Massive time gained for using and enjoying the bus from day one. Massive money saved buying already converted vs build from scratch. It is impossible to build for same or less than buy with same features expected in a full conversion. And not an empty shell with a bucket for a toilet; remember guys that dumbass who got banned for saying it was fine to dump his bucket of crap out the window. LOL

[neoneddy]

We converted ours in about 2 MN years, could have done it in 12 or 18 months in a warmer climate.

I felt like I had a Boulder chasing me as my kids were getting older. One of the primary reasons for doing this was to spend time with them and make memories.

Sure looking back if I'd have had more time and or money, I'd have done things differently. I'm satisfied with what we have because we're using it.

When the kids are grown, I'd love to find a late 90s prevost 40 or maybe 45 foot, and spend the time to do it right or find something done right. I'd like to work from the road ( computer/desk job) so having some dedicated work space would be ideal.

[luvrbus]

CAN systems are great but on the newer buses you have 4 to 5 separate computers with a CAN system and it can be a nightmare without the exspensive software to find a problem ,you cannot even add lights unless you have a designated wire that was programed into the system on Prevost and MCI buses     

[Jim Blackwood]

...you cannot even add lights unless you have a designated wire that was programed into the system on Prevost and MCI buses   

My son is a software engineer and even he wouldn't want anything to do with a CAN bus ...bus. Me? Forgetaboutit. But hey, if that's your bag knock yourself out. You can tell us all about it. BTW, mid '90 MCI was S60 and B500. Just thought you might want to know.

Jim

[someguy]

Without a multiplex system these buses would be a huge pile of spaghetti wiring.  Even worse, the system would probably use relays or proprietary modules to implement various logic functions. 

The Vansco Multiplex system used on some MCI and Prevost buses looks to be pretty good.  I can't comment on the early multiplex system MCI used.  (Aka, the "gold bricks")

You can always add a light to a Multiplex current sensed circuit by using a relay to turn it on and off.  You can add it directly to a non current sensed circuit.   The advantage of a current sensed circuit is that the bus knows when a light is burnt our or there is a short in the circuit.

J1939 is an open protocol.   There are many inexpensive adapters and software tools to work with it.  Furthermore, it looks like MCI and Vansco are pretty good about supplying documentation.   

[luvrbus]

Mci and Prevost both use more than 1 module ,the one I service for a casino each module has 28 inputs and 20 out puts on each module,they all have LED's for input,output,power and network which helps with trouble shooting and you are not going to do anything without software with the network light on, I have had to try and remove a cat,eyes from modules before on a H-45 with 4 modules ended up replacing the bad module,for treat try trouble shooting CAN on a Vanhool       
 

[someguy]

MCI offers training on the multiplex system for 3rd party technicians that work on their buses.

Are you using the Vansco software ?  Should be pretty easy to see what is going on right from a laptop.

FYI, MCI started using the Vansco Multiplex system in 2003 on bus #62032.

BTW, Vansco offers the software on a 30 day trial.

[peterbylt]

When we were upgrading from the Class C and decided on a Bus, in my opinion there really was only one choice, we were going to buy a seated Coach, and do a ground up conversion.

I did look at a few previously converted Buses and knew if I opted for a previously converted Bus it would still be a complete gut and rebuild.

We had the advantage of not being under any time table, we are not full timers and still had the Class C to use, I knew I could not afford a coach of the level we wanted, so we opted to make payments, IE: slowly buy the materials we needed over time as money became available.
 
The wife had a very specific look and design she wanted, we were also looking a few years down the road to when I retire we will probably live part of the year in the Bus, in the warmer months we want to go up north and return to the house here in Florida for the winter.

Another consideration is I love a project always have a number of things I am working on or building and this looked like the Granddaddy of all projects, this would be the project that I could use all the skills I had learned.

One of the things I would do different, knowing what I know now is a more complete Mechanical inspection, although I did a pretty thorough inspection and had a professional Bus driver friend of mine test drive it, as the conversion progressed I found a number of hidden things that were unbelievably bad, I don't believe the Coach had been maintained at all in the last 10 years of its life as a commercial bus, one thing you need to remember, if this bus was in perfect shape they never would have retired it and sold it for $5000.

When we first got the Class C we had gutted and remodeled it, so we had some idea what we were getting into.

One of the better decisions we made was to build it in such a manner that it became usable early in the build out part and we were able to test most of the layout and systems as they became available, each time we used it, the passion to work on it was rekindled, The wife's list to start camping was a short list, Bed, Toilet, Sink and living in Florida, AC, the shower was a want but not a must have.
 
This allowed us to determine a few of the mistakes and back out, redesign or redo them before that became a major project in itself.

Another good thing is, I built and installed everything, I know where everything is and how it works, have taken hundreds of pictures, when there is an issue, I can fix it, on the flip side, I cannot blame it on the previous owner.

We started the conversion in DEC 2015, although very usable at this point and approaching a somewhat finished state, still working on it and probably always will.

To Sum it up we are very happy with our decision to buy a seated coach and build it ourselves.

No remorse, no regrets.

Peter

[Fred Mc]

"system would probably use relays or proprietary modules to implement various logic functions.  "
OMG , not relays and propriety pmodules.

[luvrbus]

Training come as part of the sale on MCI and Prevost MCI comes to you Prevost you go to the nearest service center.Prevost offers no 3rd party training any longer and has been that way for awhile now 

[someguy]

Here's what $100K gets these days.   1993 H3-45.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHqAgX4Zm3M

What do you think ?

That same coach with a slide fetches $150K.

[someguy]

When we were upgrading from the Class C and decided on a Bus, in my opinion there really was only one choice, we were going to buy a seated Coach, and do a ground up conversion.

I did look at a few previously converted Buses and knew if I opted for a previously converted Bus it would still be a complete gut and rebuild.

Why ?
 

Another consideration is I love a project always have a number of things I am working on or building and this looked like the Granddaddy of all projects, this would be the project that I could use all the skills I had learned.

Do you still feel this way about it ?   

as the conversion progressed I found a number of hidden things that were unbelievably bad, I don%u2019t believe the Coach had been maintained at all in the last 10 years of its life as a commercial bus, one thing you need to remember, if this bus was in perfect shape they never would have retired it and sold it for $5000.

Tell us more.

One of the better decisions we made was to build it in such a manner that it became usable early in the build out part and we were able to test most of the layout and systems as they became available, each time we used it, the passion to work on it was rekindled.

I agree with this.  In business we call this test early, test often.

The wife%u2019s list to start camping was a short list, Bed, Toilet, Sink and living in Florida, AC, the shower was a want but not a must have.

This allowed us to determine a few of the mistakes and back out, redesign or redo them before that became a major project in itself.

Smart ! 

I was thinking the same thing.  Once it is gutted and the new floor is down, you've essentially got a big tent.  Throw in a couch, table and bed and start camping in it to get a feel for things.  My only worry would be cutting the floor for something like a toilet and then moving it later.  But better to find that out during the tenting phase than after it is "done".     

[luvrbus]

Here's what $100K gets these days.   1993 H3-45.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHqAgX4Zm3M

What do you think ?

That same coach with a slide fetches $150K.

Has a weak 8v92 DDEC ,funny to see Andrew a detailer pitching a bus for sale I guess he is expanding into info commercials