Irizar buses

[Boomer]

I've owned fleets of new buses and fleets of old buses.  When you start buying new buses you don't just buy the bus, you buy into the manufacturer, technical and parts support, and their people and most importantly, the resale value of the bus say 8 years down the road. Guys that buy these cheap oriental and Euro buses only look at the low get in price then they find out they are not worth anything 3+ years down the road.  VanHool gave us the rush, a great sales pitch, I said what's it gonna be worth in 10 years compared to MCI or Prevost, they wouldn't answer that one.  Parts availability crummy too; they said they would give us 10K of new parts in our parts room for free if we bought.  I was right, 5-8 years later the VH was worth WAY less than H3-45.  At Prevost I could call up anyone from the regional tech rep clear up to the president of the company at any time if there was a problem, that my friend is good support.  Irizar will be another fail but they keep trying, lol.

[CrabbyMilton]

That's what creates brand loyalty being involved in the business as you stated.
But at the same time, brand loyalty does no good if the quality suffers and the customer keeps buying from the same builder anyway just because the salesman is nice is rather foolish.

[Jeremy]

Irizar is only a body builder of course, and I guess their success or otherwise in the US will very largely depend upon whose mechanicals are used - if they use Volvo for instance (since Volvo = Prevost) then presumably that would answer many of the concerns about parts and servicing?

According to Wikipedia Scania, MAN, Volvo and Mercedes are the usual chassis that Irizar use, and of course in Europe (and I realise the US market is structured very differently) it's the customer who specifies which chassis they want their chosen body to be built on - I'm guessing though that in the States Irizar will be partnering with a single chassis supplier to offer just one off-the-shelf package

(BTW, I know I keep using the term "chassis" which is incorrect given that everything nowadays is obviously monocoque - I don't know what the correct terminology is now though - 'subframes' perhaps)

Incidentally, I was wrong before when I said they were Turkish - they're actually Spanish

Jeremy

[CrabbyMilton]

I think you can just call it a platform.
That's interesting so I wonder now if the ones over here will use a FREIGHTLINER platform or are these like MCI and are built completely in-house hence no outside platform meaning no divided responsibility.

[buswarrior]

If an existing company partners with them... those are decision made by short sighted accountants...

Why would you commit suicide by nurturing the competition?

Someone at MCI finally figured that one out, when they dumped their Setra fetish...

Separate body on chassis are firmly positioned in the lower tier market in the US and Canada, are built cheap, and are disposable.

Integrated platform that won't shake itself apart on pothole filled roads is the path to success.

Van Hool still can't keep their coaches, single or double deck, from falling apart, pounding around the Northeast USA... to be fair, they are trying, but there's further to go...
Let's see if the new owners of Coach USA/Megabus continue to buy them in large numbers...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[Jeremy]

Partnerships between body builders and 'platform' builders (that's as good a term as any BTW) isn't 'nurturing the competition' - rather the opposite, it's bringing together two companies who specialise in different things and who both need the other in order to succeed.

Having said that, I've always wondered quite how Mercedes view things given that they DO build their own bodies (and also own Setra) in addition to supplying their oily bits to other bus builders.

Out of interest, what mechanicals are Van Hools sold with in the States? Also - Freightliner was mentioned - I know they build motorhome chassis etc but do they do 'platforms' for monocoque bodies as well?

Jeremy

[CrabbyMilton]

The VAN-HOOL CX and TX over here are offered with CUMMINS or DETROIT engines and ALLISON transmissions as does the TD which is the double decker but I think that one is CUMMINS only.
FREIGHTLINER generally builds bus chassis(or platform) for bus builders that don't build their own in house version. https://www.freightlinerchassis.com/
They are owned by DAIMLER so yes, that can be a spaghetti plate of potential questionable practices about your suggestion of helping the competition. But they serve areas where they don't really compete.

[Jeremy]

So in fact Van Hool do it slightly differently again; I've looked at the Wikipedia page about them and it says exactly that - that they build both complete buses themselves (except the engine and transmission), as well as the usual bodies for fitment onto the usual Volvo & Scania etc platforms. And I remember years ago seeing a reference to a 'Plaxton Van Hool' and puzzling about exactly how that could work - but presumably if Van Hool build some of their buses with their own suspension and sub-frame assemblies then no-doubt they've sometimes sell those assemblies to other body builders too.

Isn't the bus industry in Europe complicated?

Jeremy

Edit: I've just looked on Plaxton's own used bus sales website and they actually offer Van Hool CHASSIS as one of the search options

[Iceni John]

Irizar is very well established in Mexico, and positioned there as a premium product  -  most of the First-Class and Executive-Class operators have large fleets of Irizar-bodied MANs or Scanias.   The scale of long-distance bus services in MX is on a completely different level to anything in this country  -  for example, Mexico City has four huge, and I mean well over 100 bays each, bus stations that are 100% busy 24 hours a day, with services to popular destinations such as Guadalajara leaving every few minutes:  you have to see it to believe it!   Most companies there are using MAN, Scania and Mercedes running gear with bodies by Irizar and Marco Polo, or Volvo 9700s with factory bodies.   In other words, Irizar is already catering to a very competitive market, and doing very well there especially with its PB body in both two and three axle lengths.   In my personal subjective experience I would say that the Irizar PB has fewer squeaks and rattles than equivalent Marco Polo bodies on the sometimes very rough roads where the heavy trucks have broken up the surface, such as 57D north out of CDMX that is really bad.   They appear to be well-made, and even buses with many hundreds of thousands of KMs on their odometers still are tight and quiet without body noises;  I've ridden in relatively new Van Hools here that are more rattly than Irizar PBs.

Let's not write Irizar off just yet.   They won't put MCI and Prevost out of business, but there's always room for more competition, especially from a good product.   I hope they do well here, even if it's in a niche market such as Setra's and Volvo's.

John

       

[luvrbus]

Only market Irizar can sell to is the tour operators in the US that well covered by Prevost,MCI and Vanhool I don't see the market for Irizar,M/B with the Setra never could compete on a large scale even with a parts and service outlet in the US.Irizar had a crappy reputation for electrical problems in the past with the CAN system and who knows what chassis they will use for the American market. I give them A for trying though they will try with special financing like deferred payments and free service but who is going to drive a bus across the US to Vegas for service     

[richard5933]

Blackberry and Nokia had the US phone market pretty well wrapped up. No one really expected that to change anytime soon. And then came the iPhone.

If Irizar (or any company) comes up with a new/novel product that makes everything else obsolete they'll be the new king of the market. Until something better comes along.

[CrabbyMilton]

That's very true. IRIZAR may or may not be a good coach in Mexico or other areas but it still has to prove itself here. MCI and PREVOST have nothing to worry about as long as they keep doing fine overall work and yes, competition is always a good thing.
Sure we're all bus fans here and we all have our favorites. However, the non bus person taking a charter trip won't care who built the bus just so long as it's comfortable and doesn't konk out right in the middle of nowhere ruining an otherwise fine vacation. That makes both the charter operator look bad not to mention the coach builder

[Jeremy]

And don't forget the revolutions (long-distance electric vehicles and driverless buses) that are just around the corner. The world moves fast nowadays and there is no such thing as a company with a safe market share. The big auto makers are spending $billions on R&D and even they aren't safe from complete upstarts like Tesla, and there are (for instance) vast corporations building cars / buses / trucks in China now that no-one in the West has even heard of yet, and they'll all soon be wanting to expand overseas too. Everything will be to play for over the next few years

Jeremy

[CrabbyMilton]

Well the driverless idea for vehicles has a ways to go yet before people feel confident about them.
I'm not too crazy about the Chinese imports since I'm mostly a "Build it here" man. However, if a charter operator wants to buy such a product, then all the more power to them. But if it fails, I'll have to resist the urge to say I told you so.

[luvrbus]

Las Vegas buys the double decker Vanhools with their own funds they are not allowed to purchase those with funds from the US government they try and work around restrictions by leasing.You guys forget Neoplan builit a plant in CO that is now closed to sell their buses here that billion dollar deal didn't fly and left cities holding the bag like Houston Metro.Bluebird is gone,Eagle,BCI,Neoplan and others Prevost and MCI are not worried