Inject Resp Time Long

[chessie4905]

Probably a connecting rod nut.lol

[DKO]

I am back on the road. I posted the whole story on Prevost Community. I can post it here if there is a desire for the information. It has been quite a ride.

This is the old fuel injector wiring harness.



This is the $332.13 new one.



The bus had 350266 miles so it was recommended to change the fuel injectors while it was open. The old ones were working great, but if one went out in 6 months, all the labor being done would be done again.

Three of the new injectors.



New harness installed.



Davy

[buswarrior]

Yes, please, share your write up!

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[DKO]

Breakdown and Tow

Okay, time to tell the story. I hope the information will be helpful to someone now or in the future.

My older brother has diagnosed me with Bus Psychosis. It is probably a very accurate diagnosis. This has been an emotional roller coaster, but my wife and I have been stable and at peace in our minds. We moved out of the bus and into a Sunday School room of a church 80 miles away and were able to carry right on with our duties.

Being who I am and the faith I embrace, I give God honor for that before I even tell this story. I mean no offense by that and all the other disclaimers that are required nowadays.

I should probably break this down into parts so as not to be too long.

Breakdown and Tow

On Thursday, January 24, at 9:00 PM the bus lost power on a very busy I-45 south on the north side of Houston. It was if I cut off the key. The Detroit Diesel monitor showed the alarm I posted at the beginning of this thread. I was surprised that no one here had ever had this alarm personally. Maybe in telling it, I can give information to someone in the future.

I could not coast to an exit so I was dead on the shoulder of a very busy interstate. The bus would crank, but would not start.

I text Jeff Rowe, a personal friend from East Tennessee Luxury Coach in Vonore, Tennessee. He guided me through what to do over the coming hours. Jeff's steady hand and bus knowledge is always a plus for me and the girls. I am so thankful he still takes my calls.

My first call was to Prevost Action Service, which is a 24-hour helpline for Prevost owners and drivers. I might should say this. The first Prevost Action guy told me to call Prevost Houston. To my questions, he said Prevost Houston was open 24 hours a day and would send a mobile truck to me. I suspected he was wrong and of course, he was. When I called back the second time I talked to Joe and he really went the extra mile.

After lots of connections and back and forth conversations, Joe and the regional Prevost rep found there was no one in the Houston area that could send a roadside mechanic until morning and the best option was to tow the bus. They recommended Priority Towing, gave me their phone number then connected me directly.

I earnestly wanted to avoid the tow hook, but spending the night on the side of I-45 was not an option. Brandon from Priority Towing arrived at 12:06 and it was immediately obvious I was in the right hands. By 1:10 we were rolling about 20 miles to Prevost Houston.

Two things about the tow. First, I have Good Sam and called them after the tow was arranged. Priority Towing was not on their list of providers, but I decided to stay with them since they were recommended by Prevost. I have submitted an application for consideration of reimbursement. The tow was a reasonable $825.

Secondly, some have asked me why I did not go to a Detroit specialist like Stewart Stevenson. First, no one could get a hold of them that night. Prevost Action had no idea if Stewart Stevenson could even look at the coach. Joe talked to the service manager, Chris, at Prevost and his said come on in. We will get a Detroit guy here to look at it.

Priority Towing told me I could not stay in the bus at Stewart Stevenson even that first night. He also told me Stewart Stevenson in Houston has more oil field work than they can handle and I would probably we way down the list in importance to them. That may not be the case, but that was his opinion.









By 2:20 AM we were off the hook and inside. What a night.

Davy

[DKO]

The Diagnosis and Repair

Friday morning at Prevost I met with Chris the Service Manager. He told me that he had called Mid Coast Diesel that does most of their Detroit work. As you know, Prevost has not used Detroit engines for at least 8-9 years so they no longer train their guys on Detroits or keep their computers updated with the lastest licensed Detroit software.

A Prevost mechanic did try to access the codes on the engine computer but it was a no go. Mid Coast said it would be Monday before they could get there so we loaded up some clothes and gear and drove 80 miles to Sweeny, Texas where we were beginning services that night.

Monday morning Mark from Mid Coast Diesel came to Prevost Houston and hooked the computer to the BoggsMobile. The bus computer was showing the code that corresponded with the alert the Detroit Diesel Monitor had given me when the bus quit Thursday night, Inject Resp Time Long. He began heavily leaning toward the wiring harness, but he looked diligently for other causes too.

After he cleared the codes, cleaned some grounds and cleaned some of the wiring harness plugs, he asked me to crank the bus and it started. Yay! In a few minutes, it was purring like a kitten. He checked all the fuel injectors and all was well on the computer. After running for nearly an hour he went back to the engine and started messing with wires. When he pressed the wires on the wiring harness from the computer to the fuel injectors, the engine almost died. Bingo!

He had duplicated what the computer was telling him and that is a positive thing. We would not want to go through the expense and hassle of replacing the harness without some confirmation.

While he was telling his bosses to locate a new harness I set about clearing out from under the bed to see if the engine could be accessed from the floor. After several hours and several people looking it over, it was determined to be a no go. If I was somewhere more familiar with conversions, it might could have been done, but not at Prevost Houston. Pulling the engine was going to be a better option. I can not even believe I am saying that pulling the engine was going to be better.ðŸ˜"

A plan was set in motion over the next few minutes. Prevost would pull the engine and put it back in. Mid Coast would do the engine work.

I had some decisions to make by the next day. Mid Coast recommended I change the fuel injectors while the engine was open since I had 350,266 miles on the bus. The original ones were working fine, but if one went out 6 months from now, all the work that was being done would have to be duplicated.

I have a hard time making a decision like that and I certainly did not know what was best. My wife reminded me of our family policy. When we do not know what to do, we go with the advice of the person we trust that has some level of expertise in that specific area. Jeff Rowe is that guy for us and he said with the mileage and age, he would lean toward replacing the injectors.

I trust Jeff, not only because he knows much more than me, but he also understands quite a bit about where we are in the grand scheme of things. He knew without me telling him that this repair was going to stretch us beyond our limits and he would not recommend something just to hear himself talk. Decision made.

Prevost did not want to remove the engine without the parts and Mid Coast did not have the parts in hand until Wednesday. They pushed the bus into the shop Wednesday afternoon the sixth day after the breakdown. Thursday morning Henry from Prevost began taking out the engine in earnest. I liked Henry immediately.





Friday morning Meho from Mid Coast was there to tear into the project. I like him too.





Three of the new injectors in.



Rocker arms back on and valves being adjusted.



The new wiring harness in.



Meho finished up that same day, Friday, and by Tuesday afternoon Henry had the engine in and ready to crank. That is when he discovered an oil gusher.



You can see the inside of the engine underneath the gray gasket in the picture below. That gap was about 8-10 inches long and there was a smaller one on the other side of the engine.



Meho came Wednesday morning, February 6 to program the injector numbers into the computer and to check the oil leak. He loosened the rocker cover bolts and tightened them several times, but he could not close the gap. To everyone's disappointment, it was obvious the engine had to come back out.

Meho called his boss to tell him the news and that he thought he should stay and help with the removal, fix the problem and help with the insertion. His boss agreed and so did Chris from Prevost.

About one hour and fifty minutes later, the engine was out and the valve cover was removed. Wow!

The troubleshooting begins.



Meho tried a new gasket, the second, but the rocker cover would not seat properly. Then he began to suspect the rocker cover was warped. The old gasket would seat properly so the new gaskets were examined carefully.

After repeatedly going over everything that had been changed, he eventually hit on the culprit. The bolts that secure the rocker cover have a bushing. He had changed them per his normal procedure. Once he compared the new bushings and the old bushings, he discovered the new ones were slightly shorter.

The part number on the new bushings was the correct match for the serial number on my engine, but they were not the correct part. It was an honest mistake, but not one that Meho is likely to make again. He had checked the tightness of the gasket to the engine at the ends around the cams and it was good. He assumed the rest was good. I am in no way disparaging Meho or Mid Coast. An honest mistake was made and they rose to the occasion. I would not hesitate one moment to have Meho work on anything I have. He is knowledgable, skillful and has a great work ethic and attitude.

I thought I took a picture of the bolt and bushing, but I can not find one. These are similar bushings from the Internet.





The sleeve of the bolt is designed to bottom out and the bushing holds the rocker cover tight against the gasket and the motor. The shorter bushing allowed the bolt to bottom out without pressing the bushing against the cover. Problem found and solved.

They pushed the motor back in at 1:21 on Wednesday and began to hook it up. They cranked it at 3:00, one hour and forty minutes later. Wow again!

I could have test driven it then, but Houston rush hour was heating up and I decided to drive it the next day. They also needed to replace the temperature sensor on the transmission fluid and that would not be in until first thing Thursday.

Thursday morning I brought my family and all of our gear and loaded up in the bus. We test drove it 42 miles and all was good. We hooked up the car and headed east. Very glad to be leaving Texas at last.

Davy

[bevans6]

Good job well done by all concerned, I would say. A few questions.  Not sure of the diagnostic process for the injector harness.  Is the harness external to the engine?  I just assumed it connected to each injector under the valve cover,but if you can't even pull the valve cover with the engine in the bus, it sounds like it is external.  Which leads me to my second question, you seriously have to pull the engine to take off the valve cover?  Engine out to check the valve clearance?  I bet it had never been done previously, as was discussed up the thread.  Anyway, nice that you are back on the road.

Edit: quick check on a few Prevost forums confirms that on the XL you have to disassemble a fair bit of the bed room to get access to open the top of the engine.  It seems to be an XL-S60 thing.  And the harness is both internal and external.

[buswarrior]

Both MCI and Prevost were pretty stupid back at the beginning, with clearance for the S60 for overhead maintenance...

Add a converter who makes the rear of the cabin inaccessible...

Doomed.

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[luvrbus]

You don't see a 20,000 lb towing cradle on a XL often did you have that installed ?

[DKO]

You are the expert with the eagle eye, Cliff. It was a great investment for me.

Yes, I had that done at Prevost Nashville in early 2012. There are pictures here.
https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=22972.msg252495#msg252495

[DKO]

I have had a couple of glitches since we left Houston even though we have driven almost 800 total miles. I am partial to the thinking that the glitches are somehow related to the engine being pulled out and put back in, but I can not be sure. I am also suspicious that the two glitches are related, even though they were different. I need some diagnostic help.

First the test drive of 42 miles. Then hook up the car and drive 110 miles. Then the bus quits again on the interstate and we coast into a truck stop wondering what in the world just happened. There were no alerts and we had no clue what the cause could be.

After we were stopped, I turned off the key, turned it back on and waited for the Detroit Diesel monitor to clear. I cranked and it immediately started. I went to the back and everything looked normal until it died after about 2-3 minutes. I had my wife crank from inside and it fired up on the first turn, but died in about 30 seconds. This thing has always started easy and had never died on startup.

After looking things over, I flipped the switch to year start and pushed the button. It started again and kept right on running. I had my wife turn on the key inside and after about 20 minutes I put the rear switch on normal, still running fine.

On advice from Jeff Rowe and the Detroit shop in Houston that did the engine work, we drove 92 miles west in rush hour traffic to their shop in Houston. Jason from Mid Coast Diesel was there, hooked up the computer and found no engine codes. Huh? Something happened.

He crawled underneath and around the engine checking every connection that had been messed with during the repair and several that had not been touched. The engine kept right on running as smooth as can be.

The bus had been running for nearly 8 hours when it shut down. It had been nearly 600 miles since I had taken on fuel. It did not act like a fuel issue at all. It seemed to be an electrical problem.

While Jason was sitting in the driver's seat he was thinking out loud about possible ways the engine could lose electrical power and not trigger a code. He could only come up with one way, the ignition. He wiggled the key and messed with the wires behind the ignition, but the bus kept purring never missing a beat.

What to do now? Jason offered to let us park there for the night until we made a decision, but we were ready to go. We unhooked and got turned around and we headed east again. We negotiated our way through the dregs of rush hour traffic, found a rest area after 56 miles and stopped for the night.

The next day all was fine and we drove 395 miles.

The third day it cranked fine and we drove about 40 miles, parked in a lot and walked to lunch. Normally I would not even shut down for an hour stop, but I did not want to leave the bus running unattended. After about an hour I turned the key and it cranked, but did not start. The second time, it cranked, but did not start. I walked to the back to look things over and on a whim, I reached up and flipped the switch to rear start and pushed the button. It instantly roared to life. I turned the key on up front, flipped the rear switch to normal and finished my short drive to a church in Foley, Alabama.

When we arrived and leveled, my wife shut it down. For kicks and grins, I asked her to start it again. It fired up like normal.

What in the world? Where do I begin? What am I looking for?

Davy

[richard5933]

Sounds like a loose connection or something similar. Have you done the easy stuff like making sure that all the terminals that were touched have been firmly pushed back on? None of them got stretched out during the engine pull? Etc?

I imagine that there were more than a few pieces of the harness that had to be unplugged to pull the engine, and it wouldn't take much for one of them to be just slightly off of a proper connection.

[Boomer]

Nice write up, very informative.  For your current issue I would open up the rear start box and inspect the wires carefully, as well as any relays in the start circuit, as well as ignition switch.  Looking at the engine sitting on the ground another possible issue came to mind; not related to your current problems though.  I have come across several instances of wear through of the rear fuel line on the S60.  This line is routed above the starter to the rear of the head.  This line is a cheap quality braided hose, secured by a cheap quality wire clamp, bolted to the engine.  Vibration quickly wears through the insulation of the wire clamp, then the metal on the clamp wears on the fuel line.  I heard of this problem from another bus company's road failure, spraying fuel is not a good thing.  We quickly inspected all of our coaches, which were very new.  Several were experiencing the same issue.  We installed split loom around the hose and a better clamp.  Would have been a snap when your engine was on the ground, but even in the bus it's an easy correction.  JFYI  Also with the number of miles on your engine I recommend frequent inspection of your turbocharger.

[DKO]

Thank you both for the information, very helpful. Jason from Mid Coast crawled everywhere looking at and feeling connections the day we went back to Houston. He also spent a good bit of time pressing on wires in the start box above the engine to see if he could cause the bus to shut off. He also said that the engine should throw a code if some things were not plugged in properly. I will begin there and then check all the connections I can reach.

I told Prevost to change anything on the engine that looked worn or that they knew to be a problem. I know they changed a few oil hoses, but I do not recall the fuel line change. I have not received my final bill from them so I can not say for sure. I will put my eyes on the line later.

Thank you again, gentlemen. Please let me know if anything else comes to mind.

Davy

[richard5933]

Almost sounds like the problem when my engine's auto shut-down was triggering randomly. Problem for me was a faulty temp sensor circuit. I've got an over ride switch to allow the engine to run while holding the switch, presumably to facilitate getting the bus off the road. That's how we confirmed where the problem was.

I know your bus is more modern and has more complexity, but do you have an over ride switch to allow operation? If so, you could test to see if one of the shut down circuits is mis-firing.

[DKO]

I do have a shutdown override switch, Richard. How would I test it?

If the engine had been shutdown it would show up on the computer as a fault, right?

Davy