MCI 102c3 roof raise or not?

[eagle19952]

A good alternative to solid wood is 1/2? Baltic birch. Nice surface for finishing and with stain and poly gives a nice finish. A lot easier and cheaper than solid wood.

mine are made from 3/4" birch ply and faced with laminate.
The photo does not show the grey/beige wood grain.

[Gary Hatt - Publisher BCM]

Here is an interesting article in the September 2014 issue of Bus Conversion Magazine on How to Raise the Roof on an MC-5.  This will give you some idea on the work involved.  https://www.busconversionmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/BCM-2014-09-Sep.pdf

[Jim Blackwood]

There are significant differences between furniture making and cabinetry and I certainly would not attempt to tell you how to do your trade. But 1/4" in 12"? With what, water maple maybe? Balsa?

No, the only reason is expense. If the wood is properly sealed the moisture content will not change and neither will the dimensions. What is plywood made from? A core made from softwood materials, that's what. Now are you seriously going to try claiming that softwood swells less when wet than hardwood does? The best cabinetry you can buy ALWAYS has hardwood facings and doors. Custom you can get whatever you want. Birch full cored laminate plywood is great for flat panel doors but any good raised panel door is built up of hardwood pieces. The reason the carcass is not built of hardwood is only one simple reason and that is expense and nothing else. Before these plywood laminates were available hardwood was the only thing that was used, and it was both more durable and more attractive. The only reason lesser materials are accepted today is because you don't have to look at them.

For that matter, the closest and tightest fit in any cabinet job is the facings, and the least tolerant of any changes. And you said yourself those were hardwood.

As for being hard to work with or time consuming? Only if your tools are dull and/or you aren't skilled in using them. Otherwise, just NO. Totally incorrect.

Jim

[chessie4905]

Our house I grew up in in the past had all birch plywood cupboards, dressers,cabinets, drawers, etc built in. In all those years, no cracking, warping or peeling. We didn't have ac in those days, so humidity varied widely through the seasons. The panels weren't like plywood today but some kind of solid core with birch veneer glued to it. It came in 4 x 8 sheets.

[richard5933]

There are significant differences between furniture making and cabinetry and I certainly would not attempt to tell you how to do your trade. But 1/4" in 12"? With what, water maple maybe? Balsa?

No, the only reason is expense.
Jim

Not correct. I can get top quality oak, cherry, or maple at lower cost than I can get furniture grade plywood. What you're saying about expense is just wrong. I paid over $120 a sheet for the top quality hardwood veneered plywood, even more if a customer wanted a particular grain style like quarter-sawn or drift-sawn. I can get the solid oak itself for much less than that and did so all the time.

Solid wood moves. If you've ever seen a table top or door panel with a crack down the center, the reason is the builder didn't allow for the wood to shrink in the winter. If you've ever seen a solid wood door frame that came apart at the joints, then odds are the builder didn't allow for the solid wood panel inside the frame to expand.

I know that facts are a rare thing on forum sometimes, but here is a link to some:

http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Design/Nature_of_Wood/2_Wood_Movement/2_Wood_Movement.htm

Scroll to the bottom of the page to see exactly the numbers I was talking about. I didn't reference this page in my initial statement, that was from experience. However, it took me all of 15 seconds to find a page with supporting information.

The best cabinetry you can buy ALWAYS has hardwood facings and doors.

If you re-read the first sentence of my post you'll see that I said the exact same thing. Solid wood for facings and doors.

Before these plywood laminates were available hardwood was the only thing that was used, and it was both more durable and more attractive.

Also not so. Take apart a piece of quality made antique furniture and you'll find laminates and veneers. I've restored 100+ year old antiques which had sides & backs made from plywood covered in very nice veneer. This is nothing new. The difference was that the craftsmen had to make their own laminates if they wanted to use them - no going to the local box store and loading up the wagon. And, if the craftsmen did their job correctly people looking at the item would swear that it was made from solid wood.

If you open the lid of any Singer sewing machine cabinet, even the very nice and ornate ones from the 1800s, you'll see a great piece of veneer glued over smaller pieces of wood glued and laminated to make a single, strong, and durable sewing machine top.

Winters in Wisconsin has extremely low indoor air humidity levels due to heating and seasonal factors. In the summer the indoor air humidity levels can be exceedingly high. Our buses are no different - very low humidity levels in the winter and high in the summer. Especially for those that drive their buses to different parts of the country. Temperature swings in a parked bus can be well over 100 degrees summer to winter. People building their bus cabinets are welcome to use whatever materials they want. But, those that do so using solid wood will have to take steps to allow for seasonal humidity and moisture levels.

[eagle19952]

just trying to help.

Baltic birch's core is unlike traditional plywood you may be used to seeing: the layers of inner plies are 1.5 mm-thick solid birch veneer, cross-banded, and laminated with exterior grade adhesive.

https://www.woodworkerssource.com/blog/woodworking-101/tips-tricks/your-ultimate-guide-to-baltic-birch-plywood-why-its-better-when-to-use-it/

[Jim Blackwood]

Looks like my response was lost and I'm not doing it over. Sorry about that, it was good.

But relevant points then.

For base cabinets, yes a laminate is the best choice for the back end. I did not say otherwise. For overhead, hardwood sides are a valid choice and may be preferred for a number of reasons not the least of which is appearance.

Again, if the wood is adequately sealed the dimensions do not change. Adequately sealed means every surface is protected by an impervious layer of a durable finish thick enough to resist wear and incidental damage so that no moisture can pass into or out of the wood at any time. This is perfectly easily accomplished with common urethane finishes if done right. Most work is not done thoroughly enough, especially for bus service.

Note I also said I used hardwood laminate for the cabinet bottom. Why are we even disagreeing about this?

My entire point was to encourage owners to at least attempt the job rather than buying the cheap particleboard stuff that won't hold up. I don't care what you use, I just think it's pointless to start with something that will destroy itself in short order.

Jim

[DoubleEagle]

I'll side with Richard when it comes to the behavior of wood. I have a background in Industrial Arts Education (a long time ago), and I was taught that after being exposed to different temperatures and humidity levels, wood does what it wants. Even urethane coatings cannot guarantee complete sealing under all conditions.

[Jim Blackwood]

Well like you Walter I also have a background in Industrial Arts but the behavior of wood products goes way beyond what they teach there and I've had a close relationship with wood and wood products all my life. Red oak is a variety with a well deserved and time honored reputation of standing up to an extremely wide range of conditions with strength and durability. But nevermind that. If you want sawdust, by all means use sawdust. And I'll continue to use solid wood when possible or desirable, oak when acceptable, and laminate when needed. At least solid hardwood does not delaminate. Bear in mind that the very large companies that make and sell composite wood products like plywood, etc have an extremely large vested interest in convincing the public that they are superior products. And for some uses they are. Certainly not for all, and in many cases they are abject failures.

Jim

[richard5933]

Well like you Walter I also have a background in Industrial Arts but the behavior of wood products goes way beyond what they teach there and I've had a close relationship with wood and wood products all my life. Red oak is a variety with a well deserved and time honored reputation of standing up to an extremely wide range of conditions with strength and durability. But nevermind that. If you want sawdust, by all means use sawdust. And I'll continue to use solid wood when possible or desirable, oak when acceptable, and laminate when needed. At least solid hardwood does not delaminate. Bear in mind that the very large companies that make and sell composite wood products like plywood, etc have an extremely large vested interest in convincing the public that they are superior products. And for some uses they are. Certainly not for all, and in many cases they are abject failures.

Jim

Plywood is not the same as composite material. Composite material like particle board and MDF are not what I am talking about. Plywood is made from layers of solid wood glued together in layers with the grain alternating. It is no more sawdust than that piece of red oak you're using.

I've spent many hours carefully laminating my own plywood when needed to make pieces. High-end furniture makers have been doing this for centuries. Well made furniture-grade plywood will not delaminate. It is more durable than solid wood, particularly when the proper adhesives are used.

Take the best piece of red oak you want, soak it in all the urethane or other chemical you want, and the moisture and heat will still take its toll. There is no stopping moisture from entering wood. You can slow it down, but you can't stop it.

If you look carefully at the coffered wood panels in the mansions built in the 19th century, you'll see that they are made from veneer over something else. Usually the something else was less expensive wood, but often it was an early form of plywood.

I was once asked to restore a friend's antique chest of drawers. Underneath the gorgeous veneer and carved moldings the basic carcass was built from hand-laid plywood.

All that said, I challenge anyone to show me a set of custom kitchen cabinets where the carcass and side panels are made from solid wood, no matter the price paid. They are all something stable and durable, but the only time I've seen solid wood used for the large flat surfaces was when it was done in a frame & panel setup, not just flat slabs of wood. Face frames & doors, but never the other hidden parts.

[DoubleEagle]

Good discussion, even if it is off topic. No, I take that back, the original desire to raise the roof was to fit cabinets in better. Raising the roof will do that, and you don't bang your knuckles when taking a shower, if you go high enough. Jim needs to get a bus, raise his roof, and install the cabinets of his choice. Richard already has a quality bus that was put together by some of the finest conversion people that ever worked on coaches, and it contains just about every style of wood product. It has lasted for decades, and was made in Ohio. 

[Jcparmley]

Do you know of anyone who has raised the roof just behind the drivers seat in the front and just in front of the rear cap in back?  You could avoid the difficulty of the caps.  One could weld some tubing on an angle from the lift point to the front and back respectively and sheet it.  There would technically be two roofs: 1 being the original caps, 2 being the new angled roof.  Does that make any sense?

[richard5933]

Do you know of anyone who has raised the roof just behind the drivers seat in the front and just in front of the rear cap in back?  You could avoid the difficulty of the caps.  One could weld some tubing on an angle from the lift point to the front and back respectively and sheet it.  There would technically be two roofs: 1 being the original caps, 2 being the new angled roof.  Does that make any sense?

Many school bus roof raises do exactly what you're describing, except most of them continue all the way to the rear. The usually start just behind the stairwell and add a tapered transition piece. Makes them look sort of like a GM buffalo bus.

[DoubleEagle]

Many school bus roof raises do exactly what you're describing, except most of them continue all the way to the rear. The usually start just behind the stairwell and add a tapered transition piece. Makes them look sort of like a GM buffalo bus.

It sounds simple, but the details of blending in the roof line at the front or rear, and having it look presentable, are not so easy to pull off. There are many "schoolies" that have done this, but the results are not always professional looking. The problem of roof  leaks will haunt a poorly conceived attempt. Just Google bus roof raise, and you will see many examples.

[Jim Blackwood]

Seems like a lot of work but on the older buses it was almost a necessity. A big part of why I never got into this sooner was that I wasn't really interested in doing that. (Although I could, and keep it indoors if I really wanted to.)

Richard, you can give up on beating on me, it should be clear by now that you and I will not agree in detail. I get it. You love plywood. I do too for appropriate uses. Believe it or not we agree on probably more than we disagree, and one place where you will never get me to agree is in saying that the exposed side of an overhead cabinet is an inappropriate use for solid hardwood. I'm sorry but you are just completely wrong about that. it is entirely appropriate. Not necessary, by any means, but not a bad choice either, and even a best choice in some cases, like if you don't want to laminate a strip of wood to the exposed edge or stick plastic to it. You want plywood there, go ahead. Far be it from me to try and stop you. BUT forget trying to convince me that hardwood is inferior to plywood. Ain't gonna happen. Put a chunk of both in a bucket of water and see which one comes apart first. What is plywood made from? Spruce usually? Nuff said.

I'm sure this is entertaining to some of you guys, but I'm getting tired of it.

Jim