Want to look at some conversions

[windtrader]

Jim,
If the budget is constrained and your desire is to get the most value from those precious dollars then in today's market you'll likely be looking for a DD 8v71 powered coach. The Series 60 is found in mid 90's and newer so the base coach costs more so for the same dollars will have fewer upgrades, if any.

An older coach can be found if just as sound if not better mechanical condition and will be more provisioned as a converted motorhome. You will get the most bang for the buck and more immediate use of an already converted older coach.

My personal preference would be to purchase via the private market. You will find better deals, no different than shopping for used cars. I assure you no bus broker/lot is going to offer you any kind of warranty anyway. Plus you're going to want a coach with history and typically lots have very little of that.

You are added to those FB groups so look there.

[Jim Blackwood]

Been looking Don. Still looking. I'm seeing quite a few old converted GM's in that price range and several MC9s and such. But a '65 GM is 53 years old and parts might be a little hard to find. 30 years old is still a 1988. By 1994 they were making 102 DL3s and that extra half a foot is mighty nice in the hallway, along with the 4 stroke 60 series and another mpg or so. I'm a newbie to buses but it seems to me that's the one to shoot for. As far as mechanical condition, anyone would have to admit it's almost a total crapshoot whichever way you go. You better be able to assess what you are buying. How many are out there that were converted right from the factory and are now in the $13K price range? Not many at all as far as I can see and if they are it's because the owner wants something newer, or they are damaged in some way or the parts aren't available anymore, etc. Granted there are some nice old coaches out there and in some ways easier to work on but start adding up the things that are better about the newer ones and I'm just not sure why we should go that way. Lose money on the mileage, maybe have to duck to walk through, turn sideways to get to the bedroom, and there are deals out there on the DL's. Some are in the same price range as the MC9.

Here's how I see it presently. The choice is either a seated DL, a 96 incher with some interior of some sort, which probably needs redone, or an old bus that might be impossible to fix if it breaks. Or just maybe if we're real persistent and lucky a 102 wide conversion with damage of some sort, exact type to be determined. Out of those choices the last one seems like a more risky choice but potentially with the best payoff. The DL seems a pretty safe bet but a lot of work to convert, the 96 more certain still but more expensive to operate, and the old bus more of a real gamble. Out of those choices I'm personally leaning towards the damaged 102 or the seated DL.

Now, the best pick so far in a 102 has that bad dash and maybe other problems. Not a deal killer but certainly a giant red flag. Uncertainty at it's ugliest. It could go either way. Chances are there are major electrical problems. So what does a controller from a bus junkyard run? $1500? (I have no real idea.) It might be an acceptable cost.

Jim

[richard5933]

We had a 1964 GM PD4106 before, and now a 1974 GMC P8M4108A. I won't say that we can go down the street to a parts store, but to date we have not had a project or repair that could not be completed properly due to parts being unavailable.

[windtrader]

Jim,

We may be talking apples and oranges. let's say you have 15k t o spend. For that money you can find a converted coach in pretty decent shape. For that money you can get an unconverted mid 90's Series 60 coach like an MCI 102xDL/3. This is apples to oranges.

A careful buy of an already converted coach with few mechanical issues can start delivering day one; that is, it can get on the road, take you somewhere, park and offer working home features both on a pole or off grid.

The unconverted coach faces many months, often years, and a huge pile of checks to get to the same place as the other option. Some questions to ask folks on these boards is how many have gone that way and completed their conversion and now enjoying the fruit of their labor? How many, for any reason, have stalled projects and an incomplete bus conversion? Watch the ads and look for coaches not completed and not ready to roll? How many would say they have spent far more money and time doing the full conversions themselves?

If you can evaluate these facets to your satisfaction then you are ready to proceed. good luck.

[DoubleEagle]

Jim,

We may be talking apples and oranges. let's say you have 15k t o spend. For that money you can find a converted coach in pretty decent shape. For that money you can get an unconverted mid 90's Series 60 coach like an MCI 102xDL/3. This is apples to oranges.

A careful buy of an already converted coach with few mechanical issues can start delivering day one; that is, it can get on the road, take you somewhere, park and offer working home features both on a pole or off grid.

The unconverted coach faces many months, often years, and a huge pile of checks to get to the same place as the other option. Some questions to ask folks on these boards is how many have gone that way and completed their conversion and now enjoying the fruit of their labor? How many, for any reason, have stalled projects and an incomplete bus conversion? Watch the ads and look for coaches not completed and not ready to roll? How many would say they have spent far more money and time doing the full conversions themselves?

If you can evaluate these facets to your satisfaction then you are ready to proceed. good luck.

I second that, emphatically. You will get the best value by buying an already converted coach from an individual that knows the coach inside out. I would not buy any coach from a dealer because they seek to make a profit that squeezes your meager funds. I also recommend that you be open to all brands of coaches because there are good ones to be had that are not MCI's. How old the coach is does not tell you it's condition. There are coaches from the 1940's and 50's out there that are superb mechanically, so keep an open mind. Many of the people on this board have connections to buses & trucks from having done work with them throughout their lives. Getting into the conversion world takes time and money, particularly if you have little experience with them. Buying a coach from a dealer that is not converted is a surefire way to open yourself to expenses that might be tough to handle. Getting into something that has electrical problems and computerized controls can be a financial nightmare. Saving a mile or two per gallon (tops) does not justify spending thousands on repairs. Driving slower will get you the same mileage as the newer engines. 

[buswarrior]

I always liked driving the DL in line and charter work. It was the last coach that was a pure extension of my finger tips. Nothing built since will go exactly where I will it to go...

BUT, anyone new to this game, who doesn't yet know what their camping style will be, and don't know if they have the vehicle control to CALMLY slalom around from inch to inch on both sides at the same time...

A DL and other 45 footers, requires careful thought and an escape plan to simply enter a grocery store parking lot. One poorly parked auto in one of those mission critical parking spots on a corner, and you are trapped, in, or out.

Then there's the potential to really cramp your camping, cuz it won't fit into the campground, you won't be able to fit it, or the facility won't let you try.

The floppy tag is a maintenance item. Beware.

There is something to be said for the "starter coach" idea, both from a maintenance upkeep and gaining bus camping experience standpoint.

Fuel economy? that is below the last thing to think about. Condition of the coach is everything. The ongoing annual preventive maintenance that you SHOULD be doing, costs more than the fuel most busnuts burn. You do the math. 5000 miles at 5-6-7-8 mpg. Completely insignificant spread in costs compared to the rest of the responsible bus expences.

Nobody that's been around the block thinks about fuel economy in choosing a coach.
However, they will use it as "justification" for their wants...

Fibbers, we all be?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[Jim Blackwood]

Yep, all good points. So it really all comes down to what we can find and for how much money. Which takes another sort of investment. I've been putting in the time, and I've run across a very few of what look like they could be good deals for the boy. From what I'm seeing you have to go deep to find them. But, the calls need to be made and there's no telling the results. May be gone. Guess I'll be on the phone today or tomorrow. In my experience truly good deals tend to not last long. But OTOH as Gramps was fond of saying, there's no deal so good that another one just as good won't come along tomorrow. The older I get the more I believe that.

I get what you are saying about conversions taking time and money. I've done automotive engine conversions for a good 40 years now. That's small scale stuff but by no means all I've been doing. I get the picture. And I agree it's way better to be able to just jump in and go. Hey, if the pool of money was unlimited it'd be easy right? But in this case it's a bargain basement deal or go another way. Hence the time investment, and since Dave doesn't seem to have the time it falls to me. I suppose I can be excused if that pushes me in the direction of resentful sometimes but there's a bigger picture that I have to keep in mind.

So lately I've been seeing seated DLs in California for super cheap. I'm going to have to call and see what that's all about. I thought $7K was a real low price (VA). Then I saw 6, then 5, then 4 and all the way down to 1 or 2K. Supposedly for late 90's coaches in very good shape. Really makes me wonder exactly what's going on there. I'm hoping some of you guys can shed some light on this because otherwise I'll just have to rely on a phone conversation with the seller to put it in perspective. I'm seeing all sorts of other things. Campaign buses bought for the election and sold afterwards, a bus bought just for a bachelor's party and then sold (Really?!? Who DOES that?). But the best deals seem to be "Widow's buses". Well, not always widows but you get what I mean. Seems like those tend to be older but nicer and sometimes priced right. I have a couple of those to check on. But IF I can buy a DL with less than 1/2M on the engine and tranny, good tires and brakes for less than $7K that leaves a good bit in the war chest for improvements. Enough to make the bus habitable by winter? Guess that depends on your definition of habitable. By my definition I could make that goal within a week but for me a bedroll, a toilet and a portable shower would do the trick. Improvements could come over time. I'm not the one that will be living in it though. That complicates things.

Just saw the post by buswarrior, I greatly appreciate your input and do not doubt the extra length can and will cause problems. It's a learning experience, the old IH school bus took some getting used to too. Just getting it into my driveway so we can get it back to the shop may make it necessary to back and fill. A 32ft S&S was no problem at all even with a trailer but that extra 13 ft? Hard to say, the axles are further back too. For sure a regular semi won't make the turn. If I had my druthers we'd be looking at F3500's but I've only ever seen one of them so far that was even in the price range. (I'm guessing that is the shortest one MCI made? I'd be interested in knowing for sure.)

Jim

[richard5933]

...Enough to make the bus habitable by winter? Guess that depends on your definition of habitable. By my definition I could make that goal within a week but for me a bedroll, a toilet and a portable shower would do the trick. ...
Jim

Don't forget that if you're buying a seated coach you'll also need to convert the title from 'bus' to 'motorhome'. You may be able to get by with a sleeping bag and a portable toilet/shower, but the powers that be may want more to be done before issuing the MH title. Each state has its own requirements and hoops to jump through before changing the title. No MH title, and then you've got more expensive insurance and registration.

[Jim Blackwood]

Thanks for that Richard, I'll have Dave check. KY laws in that area look to be more lenient though so fingers crossed. I've little doubt we can meet the minimums quickly enough.

Jim

[windtrader]

Jim,

Do not get hurried into a buy decision. There are so many coaches on the market, you do your homework, there will be one that its your needs. True, some exceptional deals do come around but they are far and few. One that comes to mind was a pair of Buffalo coaches that went for $1000-$1500 each. Boom, they were gone in a couple days. Turned up the next week on CL in LA I think. The vast majority sit around for plenty of time to make an informed decision. Plus you don't have enough knowledge yet to even know what a good deal is. I would strongly adopt the motto, "if it seems to good to be true, it likely is" for the time being.

Specifically, any decent condition mid-90's DL with a Series 60/BT500 is north of $10k, anything less is crap unless one of the exceptional deals as described above, the ones that come along rarely and gone in days if for real. Anything stated otherwise is a scam.

for reference, 32 ft to 45 ft is here to the moon on a bus ruler. Even 40 to 45 is not trivial at all. so you really need to know how and where you plan to use the bus before deciding that more is better.

[Jim Blackwood]

Apparently to change the title in KY all external business related identifiers (signage, etc) have to be removed and there has to be evidence of conversion to RV use. Exactly what that evidence consists of is the question we will be asking.

Well the converted and subsequently stripped out 2002 F3500 with the 60 series and bad dashboard for $8000 is gone. Might have been a bargain, might have been an electronics nightmare but considering I just learned a bit more about that bus including that it is a rebadged Dina, I'm not broken up about it.

I drove a 35 ft tag axle S$S today (Dolphin) and had no surprises. Wasn't much of a rig and sure didn't live up to its photos, had all the usual flaws and then some. Do you think Bus owners are any better about maintenance than S&S owners? I wonder. I don't think the tranny dipstick had ever been pulled out to check it and the owner was supposed to have been a mechanic. Oh well. Not seeing a whole lot of evidence that a privately owned vehicle is any better than a commercial one other than the mileage but of course I could be wrong.

Been looking at specs on turning radius, can't seem to find a solid reference on the DL. But indications are that it compares pretty favorably. Around 45 ft seems to be a really common number. One unofficial reference gave it as less than that but I don't know how reliable that is, Buswarrior you feel like commenting on that? I'm starting to think a DL might make the turn-in here just fine.

Jim

[lvmci]

Hi Jim, in Nevada the inspection to change from commercial to motorhome needed a sink, refrigerator, bed and stove in an empty bus, on mine the sink had a bucket drain, the refrigerator was strapped to the wall, still had the MCI toilet, a cot and the oven was on the floor. The idea was no passinger seats, and the difficulty of putting in the refrigerator and oven indicated it was not going to go back to commercial use. Another indicator is removing windows with covering, although this came later on mine, lvmci...

[richard5933]

Here's another option...

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=802&acctid=8028

Not suggesting this particular bus, but there are apparently lots of options out there similar to this one. Throwing it out there to help broaden the pool of available stock.

[Jim Blackwood]

Still looking, and I appreciate any links that have been sent my way. A couple times now it's been suggested to me that Nashville might be a good place to look, but so far no specifics on just where or how to go about that. It's within reasonable driving distance though and south of the rust belt so it makes sense to me.

Jim

[RJ]

Jim -

Can Dave drive a stick shift?  If so, there are some good old GM workhorses (4104 & 4106) out there that are tough sells simply because they have a manual transmission.  The stick shift can also do double duty as a theft deterrent, too! 

Please share with us the websites you've been perusing as you search for a bus for Dave.  We may know of some you've missed.

You've stated several times in the four pages of posts on this search that Dave's looking at a Sept/Oct time frame to be in a coach.  Unless the two of you want to be masochists and work 18 hour days for 10-12 weeks starting from scratch, this is a complete pipe dream.  And, since you're saying that $15k is the maximum cash available, you'll have even less than that to work with once you buy the vehicle - and that reserve is going to disappear very quickly as the cost of house systems nickles and dimes the budget to nothing.

Which is why you've heard over and over again that it makes no sense to start from scratch on such a short time frame, and that it's far better to purchase one already converted that Dave can live in NOW, then customize to his content as cash becomes available.  Or leave it alone and just live in it while he builds his cash reserves to purchase a DL and do it on a much more realistic pace.  You've heard this countless times, and yet, for some reason, you seem to keep balking at the idea.  Why?

Since $15K seems to be your max cash budget at the present time, then search for converted coaches in the $10 - $20K range.  Just because somebody's asking $20K, doesn't mean it's going to sell for that amount.  Find one for $10K and now you've got $5K to do some fix-up before heading out.

FWIW & HTH. . .