Want to look at some conversions

[Jim Blackwood]

Hi guys, newbie here, well sort of. Haven't done a bus conversion before but had a couple S&S's and did a lot of work to them. Practically completely rebuilt an old Coachman 32' from the ground up. (What a waste of time, effort and money that ultimately turned out to be!)

Anyway, my oldest son and I are looking at buses. I've found a couple of MCI 102's in the 10-12K range that look to be in pretty good shape and he's wanting to pull the trigger but we haven't looked at them yet or at any others for that matter, so if any of you know of a particularly good deal on an especially nice MCI or Prevost I'd be grateful for a link. We have to stay within that price bracket though or less, at least for now. He may be able to add to it in time. I'm going to help him do the conversion.

The second thing I'm looking for is an opportunity for us to look at some completed conversions. I don't know if there's a meet or gathering of some sort we could go to within the next few weeks but that would be ideal if there is. Even a private tour or three would be wonderful. Is there anybody within a day's commute of Cincinnati that would be willing to help us out here?

Thanks a bunch, I've read a lot of your posts here and taken a lot of the advice.
Jim

[PP]

Welcome to the madness and good luck with your future project. I can't help you with what you're looking for, but there will be others here shortly I'm sure that can. 
Will

[buswarrior]

Some of the old conversion clubs are still going, the old fashioned ways, without an Internet presence.

CCO - Converted Coach Owners is one within your range

GLCC - Great Lakes Converted Coach is another, an FMCA chapter.

Lots of cross over between 'em, I belong, when I remember to be somewhere with my dues... delinquent that I am.

Let me check the new newletter for opportunities within a days drive...

Happy coaching!
Buswarrior

[DoubleEagle]

The economics of getting a shell and working from scratch versus getting an already converted coach has been discussed here many times. I would recommend not rushing in to this too quickly, if you are not familiar with coaches it will be very easy for you to get burned. Getting a coach for under $10,000 or so is only the beginning of dumping a lot of money to get it converted. I maintain that it is much cheaper to get someone else's coach with a history of the work done. The main office of the FMCA is in Cincinnati, and they have hook-up spaces there for members to use. That might be a good spot to look at some conversions, although many of them have high-end RV's. Look at the listings for conversion rally's, there will be some within a reasonable distance sooner or later, and, of course, there is always Bus Conversions Magazine. Check eBay or Craigslist for listings, there are always a few for sale. Just don't buy the first coach you walk into, and do not be afraid to offer less than what someone is asking.

[Jim Blackwood]

Thanks, that is all good advice and I will follow up each item as I can. I was a member of FMCA at one time but had no idea their main office was in Cinti. Got the address?

The reason we are looking at doing the conversion, well there are several reasons really. But the first is because although he does earn large periodic lump sums and can lay down cash for the bus, Dave can't really acquire the financing to buy a 40-50K completed conversion. He's aware that double the cost of the bus is pretty much a bare minimum to make it usable, but likes the idea of customizing it to meet his own needs and tastes. And I have the skills, tools and facilities to handle whatever we need to do. (Could even put the whole thing indoors if I absolutely had to but would rather not.)

Isn't it true that a coach just removed from service usually will have up to date maintenance, brakes and tires usable for a fair distance and a lower chance of material flaws in the driveline and other critical systems? The ones we are looking at are around '94-'98 or newer. Most have less that 1/2M on the engine and trans, 50% or better on the tires, working AC, 60 series DD, Alison B500, 740 or 741 automatic. Very watchful for rust or delamination. Trying to avoid the complex engine management. What else should I be watching for?

Jim

[DoubleEagle]

The FMCA mailing address is 8291 Clough Pike, Cincinnati, OH 45244. the campground is at 3590 Round Bottom Rd., Cincinnati, Ohio 45244.

Don't limit yourself to think you have to spend $40-50,000 to get a good conversion, there are conversions for sale out there that are quite decent for much less. Doing it yourself is fun (at times) and creative, but it takes a long time, and you might end up with a coach that is laid out very much like other people's coaches. It costs little to check out coaches for sale, the more you look, the more you will know. As far as coaches just getting out of service and being in shape goes, maybe, but they also might be due for serious maintenance expenses they do not want to pony up for. Avoiding complex engine management (and scary electronic expenses) means that folk with modest budgets should avoid computerized engines and stick with mechanical engines. Since 2-cycle mechanics are getting scarcer, even that does not avoid all problems. It is best to have lots of cash and/or mechanical abilities, and not have a boat to maintain as well. 

[somewhereinusa]

There's a joint CCO/GLCC rally in Fowlerville MI at the fairgrounds June 1,2 &3 you are welcome to come and talk buses. I think there were about 10 buses there last year.
There is also the bi annual Flxible rally at Mohican adventures campground in Loudonville, OH July 11-15. Not sure of numbers but more than 30 last time. I think the bus open house will be Sat afternoon.
Most owners are more than willing to "show off" their buses most anytime.

[Jim Blackwood]

Both of those sound like events we may be able to attend. Dave will be back Monday so we'll run by FMCA maybe Tuesday.

I narrowed the search primarily to the Prevost XL and the MCI 102-C3 as having 4 cycle engines without the complex computer management, good automatic transmission, good headroom (we are both over 6') and less likely to have delamination and rust issues than some other choices might. And within the budget of course. The Prevost seems to command a premium. The MCI cockpit may be more to his liking. The hours, tires and such I can inspect. It shouldn't be too difficult to get a look at the brakes. Ease of cold start will tell something about compression. Fluid appearances may tell something about past maintenance. Engine compartment general appearance also can be an indication. An oil analysis would be an excellent idea, I'll have to ask my brother who owns a Pete what that costs and how fast it is returned. I understand the bays are a little taller in the Prevost.

It may not help much but I will ask the seller to disclose any flaws, defects or issues that may have a material influence on the buying decision. That's straight out of the uniform commercial code and is an absolute requirement of the law. May not mean much as a practical matter but is raises a claim to reimbursement of expenses if violated, and I intend to make it clear that I expect compliance. OTOH, we just got back from a trip to Long Island to look at a S&S that was enormously misrepresented. You have to be willing to walk away. Dave managed that trip, he is learning. I feel a seller who moves larger quantities is more likely to provide full disclosure than a private owner just because word will get around.

I do get your point about completed conversions. But I just don't think Dave could pull together the financing. He'd have to put up every single thing he has as collateral and then even with a lien on the bus it'd be questionable. Sure, if we run across one we can try it, but an outright purchase with cash in hand is a more sure start. As long as it is roadworthy, he can use it as a mobile camping shelter as most of the work progresses. I see no need to disable the rig during the process, and the money he saves on accommodations can go towards the conversion components and supplies.

He'd like to strip and insulate it right off, I suggested we may want to see what is there first. But that phase, with installation of new floor and wall coverings shouldn't take more than a few weeks. Then he can do his layout on the floor and walls with masking tape. That will determine the next step, although I'd give priority to tanks and plumbing. Then cabinetry and power. I have the tools to make quick work of most of that. By that time hopefully we will have had the chance to look at a few nice coaches and see what supplies folks are using. To my mind, buying as you go brings a lot of upgrade options along with it. I'm not suggesting granite countertops and marble floors, but if that's what he wants there's no reason he couldn't have it, and I've worked in the building construction trade as well so there is no part of building the rig that I see as a problem provided we start with a good foundation. And it doesn't have to be absolutely perfect, as perfection is the mortal enemy of good enough. He plans to have this rig a long time, it might as well be as close to what he wants as can be reasonably done, and easily maintained.

Of course if someone has a nice rig for sale at a good price and also has a lender in their pocket who will take a lien on the rig and give a good interest rate, of course we'd consider it. But how likely is that?

Thanks, Jim

[neoneddy]

Maybe it's confirmation bias at play but I think now is an ok time to be considering building fresh.

I'll speak for myself but we had a unique use case, we wanted an entertainer / RV hybrid . We have 4 kids and didn't want to be converting dinettes and couches into beds every night.  I'm also a Solar / tech need and wanted to build mine forward thinking vs what was common 20-30 years ago.

And I got a steal of a shell for $3k, of course this week I'm putting 1/2 that into new rubber up front .

We were also in a similar situation , not wanting to take out a loan and trying to cash flow it.   


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[DoubleEagle]

Jim, I don't want to curb your enthusiasm, but your estimates of speed of conversion are off a bit. I find it reasonable to make an estimate of time for a project, and then double or triple that time. Ideas in the head flow much easier than in the reality of doing it. The rules of the UCC won't help you much because a conversion is a private deal, not a commercial one, and there are plenty of coach dealers that other fellow bus nuts have been cheated by. Your best source for a coach is from a private individual that is a member of this community that has intimate knowledge of their coach, both the good and bad. My first Eagle was bought from a local Charter Bus outfit that had an in-house Detroit Diesel mechanic who overhauled the engine personally. Everything they told me about the coach was true, and it got me all over the East and West without any major problems for twenty years. Be patient, keep looking carefully, and don't be fooled by fluid appearances (if they change it just before you see it, the record of problems is gone). 

[richard5933]

I also think that the time schedule might be a tad overly optimistic. You really have to assume that with the shell will come an unknown number of mechanical issues. Each one will take days or more to work out, plus whatever time is needed to secure parts, etc. If you've got the facility to work safely under the bus yourself then you're ahead of the game somewhat. Same goes if you are handy with a welding outfit.

Luxury Coach is located in Marion OH. They have a number of converted coaches on their website, although I'm sure some of them are offsite. You might give a call and see what they have on their lot that you can take a look at. One of the guys there used to work with Custom Coach and has a really good head for conversions.

[Jim Blackwood]

That all makes sense and I expect you guys are right about the timeline since I usually underestimate, but if we can avoid rust repair it should speed things along considerably. What do you guys think of BusesOnline.com? They list a few 102-D3's in the 10-12K range, a couple in Colorado which should be less likely to have rust issues I'd think. I've also looked at the H3-45's, generally 15K and above. Why would they be asking those low of prices? Some sort of hidden problems, or are there really bargains to be found on those buses? So far out of everything I've looked at these seem to be the best suited aside from the length. And here's another question. If the weight with the conversion is less than a fully laden bus do you really need the tag axle? If not has anybody tried removing it? Not really interested in being the pioneer, just curious. If it scrubs in turns could you use the suspension to lift it in the turns?

I looked at Luxury Coaches' website and I expect we can arrange to go up there, maybe next week sometime. At the very least maybe it'll give us some ideas. And who knows, they might have something Dave likes, and if they could work out the financing he would probably consider it. I just suspect that his work status is not going to make them happy. Which means using his existing bankroll to get the best bus we can get and working forwards from there. He intends to be a full-timer so this will be his house on wheels, which most of the time he will probably park on a lot he owns but at least a few months a year will be down south at various locations. He's in Event Management and traveling is part of the job.  

Jim

[neoneddy]

Second the timeline, I've been stuck at 50-60% for 6 months, of course it was winter , bit still.


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[richard5933]

Here's where I found my current bus:

http://www.bargainbusnews.com/motorhomebusconversions.php

Tom is an old bus guy and seemed to be a straight shooter on our bus. I've only worked with him on this one deal, but Luke spoke of him highly. At least take a look and see what he has on his lot. It seemed to me that at least some of his buses go to Luke when needed for repairs.

I know he's a state or two away from you, but aren't states smaller out there???

[Jim Blackwood]

Thanks, I pulled up his website and will call after Dave gets back tomorrow (and has had time to sleep) or maybe send an email.

The whole purchase process seems much like any quest to buy a used car. Decide what to look for, learn the pitfalls. compare values, look for a deal. And apparently, avoid rust like the plague. Walk away from delamination. Don't buy worn out stuff. Stay away from black mold and water damage. Look for indications of wreckage. If you can't see those issues yourself hire someone who can or buy from a known reputable source which is the same thing but with perhaps a higher premium. Been in this sort of rodeo before I believe, but it's a valuable learning experience for Dave.

Anything else I should be looking for on a 102-DL3 or DL? That bus currently makes the most sense to me in terms of availablity, selection, features, and cost. Followed maybe by the H3 based just on cost.

Jim