Reversing discrimination against bus conversions (Thousand Trails & elsewhere)

[The Champion Challenger]

Hello New Friends!

Given that my previous thread on "Thousand Trails prevented my entry and worse" was getting lengthy and slightly tangential, I thought I'd start a new thread.

The background: I've been a happy Thousand Trails Elite/Platinum member since October 2016, living in my bus conversion, staying three-weeks-in-one-week-out of a Thousand Trails resort in Northern California. You can see an video of my bus conversion here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UyFxBvsREw (at this point, over 311,000 people have viewed it).

I'm a responsible, respectable, safety-conscious, highly conscientious person: the kind who goes beyond the requirements, rather than trying to undercut or get around rules. I have excellent relationships with all of the Thousand Trails rangers at my "usual" resort, which is why the behavior of a "Mean Manager" at a different TT resort - the Thousand Trails Morgan Hill resort - was so shocking.

After asking me a series of questions about my rig and how it functioned (the same rig that's been accepted into Thousand Trails resorts for over a year), she not only denied me entry, but wrote my bus up as a violation to headquarters. (See the transcript of the letter below).

Note that Thousand Trails (or perhaps I should say "Thousand TRIALS) did not call me to discuss the issue. They did not email me. And in their letter, [/b]they do not provide any details of why or how my rig did not meet their standards and gave me no information or specific details about what was wrong, or what I need to do to change, alter, or fix things. [/b]

(The only reason I have any clue of what might be wrong is based on a verbal reading of notes made on my record by a sympathetic, frustrated TT staff member who was disgusted at how I was being treated.)

Below is the exact text of the letter Thousand Trails sent to me.

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"I am writing in reference to the vehicle you currently use to camp in.

The current definition, in our member rules, for camping vehicle is the following: "Camping vehicle" and/or "recreational vehicle" means any vehicle that comfortably sleeps one or more persons overnight on an extended basis. We recognize motor homes, travel trailers, folding trailers, pickup campers and conversion vans as camping vehicles and/or recreational vehicles. Camping vehicles must be operable and in good conditions as determined in our discretion."

That being said, the camping vehicle you currently use to camp does not meet Thousand Trails standards and therefore you will not be allowed to camp in this vehicle for any future reservations at any Thousand Trails preserve.

Please consider this letter as notification that your membership has been temporarily suspended until you have a camping vehicle that meets Thousand Trails standards. During this time you can still use your membership for day use, tent camping or rental usage, but your current camping vehicle will not be allowed in any Thousand Trails Preserve.

Should this continue, your membership may be suspended further or terminated and you will not be allowed access to any Thousand Trails preserve as a member and/or guest.

In closing, I appreciate your understanding and compliance regarding this suspension and sincerely hope that you understand the severity of these incidents.

Sincerely,
Leslie Blackwell
Member Services Manager"
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Yes, I will (eventually) respond to that letter, once I decide how to do so. My goal is not just to make things better for myself, but for ALL of us. As I've said elsewhere, I want everyone who has chosen to live part-time or full-time in bus conversions to be happy, healthy, safe, and welcomed far and wide.

I want to be part of the solution. I can't do it on my own. Is there anyone out there who has ideas about how to create some sort of voluntary health & safety check-list for bus conversions? I don't mean the simple "presence/absence" DMV checklist - i.e., is there a sleeping area/heater/sink etc. but more of: are there smoke/CO2 detectors, fire extinguishers, electrician-approved wiring, etc.

OR, ask I asked before, where can we go to have our bus conversions certified as meeting the same standards as something that rolled off a factory line?

[eagle19952]

you do know that you are beating a dead horse on a platform that can do little more than sympathize with you......

[Oonrahnjay]

      I agree with your goals and I understand your feelings.  However, it appears that TT has a "loose" definition; IMO your vehicle meets that definition but they've chosen to allow one (mean, nasty, evil) person to make a discriminatory decision and "corporate" has backed them up on it.  I honestly don't know what you can do, in a practical perspective.
     As a fairly newcomer to our activity, you may not know that there are many people out there who travel around in rolling junkyards.  The RV park industry has had a history of problems of all sorts from such "guests" and they've developed ways to keep those people out of their properties.  It is certainly a good thing for them to keep unsafe vehicles out of their parks and they're trying to avoid things like someone parking a worthless vehicle on their property and just walking away.
The industry has developed ordinances and agreements with local enforcement (zoning, safety, police) to enshrine these policies and most have wording on their rental agreements that enforces these practices.  Unfortunately, in trying to hit every person who may be a problem, they sometimes shoot innocent people.  We (those of us with longer experience) know that.  It's a fact.
    You've run up against a perfect storm - and industry used to being able to discriminate (fairly and reasonably or not) and an overenthusiastic (not to mention mean, nasty, evil) person who has been delegated power.  The RVIA sticker is supposed to be a simple way for someone to know it's a "real" RV and not something that someone put together with junk extension cords and duct tape in their back yard.  Most simple solutions have serious limitations and this is a good example.
    I think your best (practical) resource is to respond to the person sending you the letter.  Send photos, statements from your solar installer and other professionals who worked on your bus, lists/photos of your safety equipment, etc. and state that his company has unfairly and unreasonable discriminated against you and ask that he/she reverse the ruling in that letter.
    But changing the "corporate atmosphere" that allows for discriminatory activity on a widespread basis?   I'm sorry, I don't see that happening.

[windtrader]

Dr. P,

I'm not a legal professional. But the way I read the terms that one agrees with when joining TT is they have full right to determine if "Camping vehicles must be operable and in good conditions as determined in our discretion."

There does not appear any way either for you to claim a refund if you so desired as the only escape is in the initial few days.

And TT will state you have no right to claim a refund if your camping vehicle does not meet their standard. TT will say we gladly honor your membership if you just "follow the rules". I.E. arrive at preserve with a camping vehicle that meets their standard. She clearly states the ban on "this vehicle".

The fact some preserves are fine and others are not is still within their discretion, there is no language stating it is universal across all preservers all the time.

There was some earlier mention of an RVIA sticker, ensuring the RV was produced by a member that adheres to a set of standards to which you allude. Most commercial RV vehicles are members but not all as I highlighted earlier that nearly all super high end coaches, those costing one to two and half million dollars are not RVIA members. Either way, it is their discretion to set any standard adhoc.

RVIA standards are numerous as listed here. http://www.rvia.org/?ESID=standards

There is no practical path to getting your converted shuttle bus to RVIA standards.

Frankly, if you choose to stay with TT, you may want to seriously consider just buying a used name brand RV to overcome the immediate issue. There are other programs like escapees and passport america that offer some discounting but not to the extent that TT offers, assuming you can use it.

Good luck  


 

[The Champion Challenger]

you do know that you are beating a dead horse on a platform that can do little more than sympathize with you......

I'm curious - why is trying to help all of us advance "beating a dead horse"?

[Oonrahnjay]

I'm curious - why is trying to help all of us advance "beating a dead horse"? 

     The "right to discriminate" is a way of life with the RV park industry.  See my post above for some history about how this happened.  TT has made it a part of their contract with 100% of the rights on their side.  Sorry, but is indeed "dead".

[The Champion Challenger]

     I agree with your goals and I understand your feelings.  However, it appears that TT has a "loose" definition; IMO your vehicle meets that definition but they've chosen to allow one (mean, nasty, evil) person to make a discriminatory decision and "corporate" has backed them up on it.  I honestly don't know what you can do, in a practical perspective.
     As a fairly newcomer to our activity, you may not know that there are many people out there who travel around in rolling junkyards.  
(...)
    But changing the "corporate atmosphere" that allows for discriminatory activity on a widespread basis?   I'm sorry, I don't see that happening.

A very thoughtful response. Thank you. Yes, I am fully aware of the "rolling junkyards" - I've camped next to them in various locations, and feel similar to when I walk my dog in places where people don't pick up their dog poo.

I'm not trying to change a discriminatory corporate atmosphere. Instead, I'm thinking of how we make progress on any innovation becoming approved within society - for example: the tiny house movement, and how tiny homes are becoming more acceptable, while at the same time struggling to obtain zoning permits for their placement...permits which are slowly being approved in different municipalities.

Given the exponential increase in van conversions and bus conversions, along with the fact that interest in conversions is ballooning (YouTube videos featuring these conversions are being viewed by tens of millions of people) - I believe that a call for recognizable, straightforward safety and appearance standards is appropriate and necessary.

I'd be interested to know if you (and others) agree or disagree, and if so, why.

[The Champion Challenger]

Dr. P,

I'm not a legal professional. But the way I read the terms that one agrees with when joining TT is they have full right to determine if "Camping vehicles must be operable and in good conditions as determined in our discretion."

(...)

Frankly, if you choose to stay with TT, you may want to seriously consider just buying a used name brand RV to overcome the immediate issue. There are other programs like escapees and passport america that offer some discounting but not to the extent that TT offers, assuming you can use it.

Good luck  
 

Well...I hear you and agree. Yes, I'll do what I can with TT and then move on. But my interest is beyond TT - it's about making van and bus conversions safe and acceptable.

But perhaps I'm the only one who cares about this? Perhaps everyone just wants to go rogue, be rebels, not conform, do their own thing, just see what happens, come what may?

[windtrader]

You may find more affinity with the skoolie groups on FB and other forums. Over the road (OTR) "greyhound" bus conversions are a different breed than school or shuttle bus conversions. One reason is some of the most expensive rolling RV palaces are built using OTR shells like the Prevost. So they look a lot more RV than bus.

School/shuttle buses have a generally earned stigma. Many are a cheap way for vagabonds to travel around, throwing all their crap inside and just not having funds or desire to make the outside look really nice. They may feel otherwise since some spend lots of time creating art on their "hippie" bus. Unfortunately, most RV parks don't see the art and only the negatives.

Not standing up for commercial RV parks or TT but they are private enterprises that cater to clients with certain expectations. They meet them in order to maintain healthy occupancy rates and pricing. School buses just have a negative affect on their targeted client base.

Try the schoolie folks, I'd bet they have a lot more to say about your situation and solutions too.

[Lee Bradley]

Overall I don't give my money to people/companies that don't want my business.  If enough people do this, these people/companies will change or go away.

[pabusnut]

I have a plan for Dr P.

Buy a cheap Wal Mart tent.  Put it up where ever you camp and throw a sleeping bag in it.

Then camp in your rig, and say nothing!

[DoubleEagle]

Beyond what has already been said, the RVIA sticker is only applied to new RV's that are manufactured by member companies. There are no programs to certify older RV's that I know of. It is very much like college accreditation, only schools that want to be members of the regional accreditation bodies are accredited. There are quality schools such as Harvard that are not accredited, and they do not seek accreditation. When a shiny Eagle, MCI or Prevost bus conversion (that may have cost hundred's of thousands to 1 point something million dollars) pulls into a campground, their greeting might be different than yours, and they will not have a RVIA sticker. Mechanical condition is one thing, but appearances can overpower any defects in the eyes of campground managers of different intelligence levels.

I have been through virtually every level of camping vehicle from Volkswagen Westfalia's to Eagle's, and the way I was treated when I was in the VW (with four kids and a Newfoundland) does not compare to what it is like now. If the campground thinks you are a "hippie", "counter-culture type", or your vehicle is not of the "norm", you will be treated differently, sooner or later. Construction wise, you are probably better off with your shuttle bus than a stick-built small RV, but appearance-wise, the RV would present less of a barrier. In any event, it looks like Thousand Trails is an outfit that is not necessarily worth dealing with.

[gumpy]

If you really want to fix the situation, hire an attorney. TT must be able to iterate in writing why they believe your vehicle does not meet their requirements for admission. If they can't do that, they are in breach of contract and therefore liable.

Hire an attorney. 

BTW, I understand your point of view, but frankly, I don't care if you think you're fighting for everyone. You're not. Many of us would never join an organization like that, nor would we ever use one of their facilities. Like so many other things in life, if it sounds like a scam, it probably is a scam.

[The Champion Challenger]

If you really want to fix the situation, hire an attorney. TT must be able to iterate in writing why they believe your vehicle does not meet their requirements for admission. If they can't do that, they are in breach of contract and therefore liable.

Hire an attorney. 

BTW, I understand your point of view, but frankly, I don't care if you think you're fighting for everyone. You're not. Many of us would never join an organization like that, nor would we ever use one of their facilities. Like so many other things in life, if it sounds like a scam, it probably is a scam.

Gumpy, thanks for your two cents, and for letting me know that I'm on my own.

[chessie4905]

I think it is about time to move on. If you feel in the right, get a lawyer to fight this. The particulars of this situation, at least bring up several questions since we are only hearing your side. Also at least in my opinion, your " Bus Conversion " is on the fringe of the majority of our group see as normal. We try to recognize all individuals and their ideas as such to a point. Hopefully an article expose on this TT campground does Not materialize in Bus Conversion magazine. There are many places online you can ventilate without both sides testifying. Other than sympathize with your plight, I, at least prefer to leave it there.