Mini vent free gas log system

[Danny]

Hey all,

I am going all electric, however, I am consider the idea of putting in a mini vent free gas log fireplace to suppliment the electric heat.  I saw one a year or two back that might work.  Has anyone had any experience with this in a bus?  Obviously, it would have to be a small fire box and small log set.  It would not be needed going down the road (bus heat would do that).  I would use it for those extra cold nights to knock off the chill.

Thoughts welcome....!!

Thanks,
Danny

[captain ron]

I would stay away from ventless unless you use a dehumidifier as they put out way too much moisture and do damage to your bus that you can't see

[TomC]

Personally would not use anything ventless in the bus.  It is too small an area that can have bad consequences-mainly moisture build up and with anything burning carbon monoxide.  Considering the "fireplace" would take up floor space and only used on the coldest of nights (in another words never used in summer if in the south) maybe consider another type of heating system that is under floor.  I realize it would be unique to have a fireplace, but sometimes unique takes up valuable space.  Good Luck, TomC

[Nick Badame Refrig/ACC]

Hi Danny,

Some of my friends have installed the cataletic type fireplaces in their busses. I'm not reccomending it!

If you were to do so, you would only use it while you were able to closely monitor it.

Az Capt. Ron has stated, extra moisture build up in the coach can cause finishes to corrode.

The more safe way would be to install a electric fireplace. [no worries]

Nick-

[DrivingMissLazy]

I installed one of these in my garage several years ago. I installed the four plaque with the electric fan and thermostat. The garage is used primarily as a "smoking room" and TV watching for the smokers in the house. The roll down garage door has six windows and is uninsulated. I have NEVER noticed any indication of moisture build up even during extreme cold weather nor have i noticed any noxious fumes.  The garage is attached and carpeted.

I would not hesitate in any way shape or form to install one of these units in a coach. Having one with the built in thermostat is really convenient. I do not think you would need the electric fan. It has a built in spark igniter so it does not require any electric connection unless you elect for the fan.

The information does indicate that it is not for installation in an RV, but is OK for mobile homes.

Regarding moisture buildup:
Water Vapor Levels - When outside temperatures fall, so does relative humidity (water vapor). Many people in cold climates use humidifiers to supplement indoor moisture. Vent-Free gas heating products are not intended to replace humidifiers, but they do perform a similar function. AGAR researchers examined relative humidity at 0 degree F outdoor temperature and a 0.25 air change rate ( American Society od Heating Refrigerating and Air Conditioning Engineer's minimum acceptable air change rate is .035/hour). Even under these extreme conditions, the highest relative humidity measured was 49 percent. That's still well below the recognized comfort level of 60 percent.

"Let's Clear the Air" Regarding the Effect of Vent-Free Gas Heaters on Indoor Air  Quality

    In 1995, the scientist at the American Gas Association's Research Division (AGAR) tested the levels of all five major contributors of indoor air quality - oxygen, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, nitrogen dioxide and water vapor (humidity) - against the latest Indoor Air Quality (IAQ) guidelines and concluded that vent-free gas heating products performed well within nationally recognized guidelines for indoor air quality.
    This research proves that vent-free gas heating products meets applicable emissions requirements, even when used over extended time periods, among sensitive populations, and even with oversized units.


Glo-Warm Heater

Be sure to scroll down to this heading:
Glo-Warm Plaque Infrared Heaters Vent-Free Gas Heating Units
Glo-Warm Plaque Infrared heaters direct heat from radiant plaques that "warm like the sun."  It heats objects in the room before the air.  Ideal for un-insulated rooms in your home.

Richard

[Tony LEE]

"The information does indicate that it is not  for installation in an RV"

I guess that effectively ends any argument about use of ventless space heaters in an RV situation. In some countries their use is illegal and some say the reason for the legislation is the high number of people dying from heater incidents in the USA.

Extrapolating results obtained in the laboratory (that were intended to replicate the normal domestic situation) to recommend their use in a hermetically sealed RV with a very low air-exchange rate of a relatively small air space is a really bad idea. Yes, their use in a well ventilated, continuously monitored RV may not pose any problems under normal circumstances, but the problem arises when people just close up all the vents against the cold, turn on the gas heater and go to bed.

As for condensation, many RVs have more than enough problems due to moisture from cooking, showering and merely breathing without adding relatively large quantities of extra water vapour by running unvented gas heaters. In temperate climates it may be just a nuisance, but when it is well below freezing it is hard to satisfy the demands of the occupants for warmth at an economical cost, while maintaining sufficient ventilation to prevent personal safety and long-term structural and cosmetic problems.

[DrivingMissLazy]

I believe my closed sealed garage with a wood uninsulated door is very similar to an RV as far as air movement is concerned. The unit has been used for at least four winters, and it does get down to zero here from time to time, and the heater does run 24/7 although the thermostat is turned down at night. The unit will shut down automatically if oxygen is depleted, but it has never shut down. Neither have we experienced any water vapor of any kind.
I really wonder what the requirements would be for installation in an RV. This statement "In some countries their use is illegal and some say the reason for the legislation is the high number of people dying from heater incidents in the USA." is very misleading at the best. How many incidents have you heard about this happening? And what kind of incidents?
Please understand that I an definitely NOT recommending the installation of one of these units in an RV or anywhere else. I am only stating my personal experience. I did have a unit similar to this installed in my 4104 for several years back in the 80's before the newer types were invented.
Further, I personally would not hesitate to use one in a conversion as long as suitable precautions were taken.
Richard

"The information does indicate that it is not  for installation in an RV.
I guess that effectively ends any argument about use of ventless space heaters in an RV situation. In some countries their use is illegal and some say the reason for the legislation is the high number of people dying from heater incidents in the USA.

Extrapolating results obtained in the laboratory (that were intended to replicate the normal domestic situation) to recommend their use in a hermetically sealed RV with a very low air-exchange rate of a relatively small air space is a really bad idea. Yes, their use in a well ventilated, continuously monitored RV may not pose any problems under normal circumstances, but the problem arises when people just close up all the vents against the cold, turn on the gas heater and go to bed.

As for condensation, many RVs have more than enough problems due to moisture from cooking, showering and merely breathing without adding relatively large quantities of extra water vapour by running unvented gas heaters. In temperate climates it may be just a nuisance, but when it is well below freezing it is hard to satisfy the demands of the occupants for warmth at an economical cost, while maintaining sufficient ventilation to prevent personal safety and long-term structural and cosmetic problems.

[Danny]

Thanks guys for the discussion! 

Danny

[Tony LEE]

My assertion were deliberately fuzzy because statistics are just not available to pin down RV CO deaths.

The CDC does have some stuff though
----------------------
During 1979-1988 in the United States, from 878 to 1513 deaths per year were attributed to unintentional CO poisoning (1). CO poisoning has been reported in many different settings, including homes (5), automobiles (6), and indoor arenas (7). The findings in this report demonstrate the danger of CO from portable gas stoves and charcoal grills, specifically if placed inside a tent or other confined sleeping area. In the United States during 1990-1994, portable fuel-burning camp stoves and lanterns were involved in 10-17 CO poisoning deaths each year, and charcoal grills were involved in 15-27 deaths each year (2). During this same time, an annual average of 30 fatal CO poisonings occurred inside tents or campers (2).
------------------------------------
the last sentence is relevant to our RV situation. I imagine there is a pretty fine line between getting away with a certain practice and not - which is why use of unvented space heaters in RVs is banned in Australia. Does this stop Australians from using them -- not really, but the thing that does save us from significant mortalities (apart from a population only a fraction of the US) is that our weather is generally not all that cold. Hermetically sealing houses or RVs here is uncommon practice. Nevertheless, it is becoming more prevalent to use catalytic heaters inside and there are many stories of using clay flowerpots upside down on a cooktop burner or lighting the oven and leaving the door open. One RV web site here had a page on the amazing new way of using the clay pot idea to keep warm. I did suggest they delete it but haven't been back to check.

My comments were directed more at cautioning against active recommendation of a practice that is not only demonstrably unsafe, but which could cause other significant structural and health and convenience problems. 

[DrivingMissLazy]

I have heard many times and have also tried the clay flower pot over the burner of a kitchen range. It really helps to radiate the heat out. Many times used when the power is off and the furnace will not work. Many years ago my parents kept a burner on the stove on over night because there was no central heat and only open gas stoves in each room. There was not any stove in the kitchen so that kept some heat in there over night.

I wonder if that is any more dangerous than just using the burner for cooking or is it the long time use over night that would be bad.
Richard

My assertion were deliberately fuzzy because statistics are just not available to pin down RV CO deaths.

The CDC does have some stuff though
----------------------
During 1979-1988 in the United States, from 878 to 1513 deaths per year were attributed to unintentional CO poisoning (1). CO poisoning has been reported in many different settings, including homes (5), automobiles (6), and indoor arenas (7). The findings in this report demonstrate the danger of CO from portable gas stoves and charcoal grills, specifically if placed inside a tent or other confined sleeping area. In the United States during 1990-1994, portable fuel-burning camp stoves and lanterns were involved in 10-17 CO poisoning deaths each year, and charcoal grills were involved in 15-27 deaths each year (2). During this same time, an annual average of 30 fatal CO poisonings occurred inside tents or campers (2).
------------------------------------
the last sentence is relevant to our RV situation. I imagine there is a pretty fine line between getting away with a certain practice and not - which is why use of unvented space heaters in RVs is banned in Australia. Does this stop Australians from using them -- not really, but the thing that does save us from significant mortalities (apart from a population only a fraction of the US) is that our weather is generally not all that cold. Hermetically sealing houses or RVs here is uncommon practice. Nevertheless, it is becoming more prevalent to use catalytic heaters inside and there are many stories of using clay flowerpots upside down on a cooktop burner or lighting the oven and leaving the door open. One RV web site here had a page on the amazing new way of using the clay pot idea to keep warm. I did suggest they delete it but haven't been back to check.

My comments were directed more at cautioning against active recommendation of a practice that is not only demonstrably unsafe, but which could cause other significant structural and health and convenience problems. 

[Nick Badame Refrig/ACC]

Hay Guy's,

All this talk is in the wind without calculating the actual size of the room compared to the amount of CO comming

out of the appliance. You would need a CO machine to measure the actual risk. In my busisness, we live by a safe

measure of testing possible faulty heaters. With our test equipment, any CO readings over "9" parts per million readings

are concidered a risk! I don't understand how we can just assume, or guess at the safty factor??  Sorry, but I have

seen the dangers way more then I ever cared to see.....

Nick-

[DrivingMissLazy]

Nick, do the CO detectors actually work? Or the lack of oxygen detectors? I am getting concerned about my garage installation.
One other thing. There are literally thousands of homes here in this area with natural gas and open flame stoves in each room. Central heat has not arrived here in many of the older homes. I wonder how dangerous these are. Of course, they are old so they probably are far from air tight so maybe no danger. I do not remember reading about any deaths due to these stoves.
Richard

[Nick Badame Refrig/ACC]

Richard,

We don't use  thoose "home depot" type CO testors ..

Here is a link to the equipment that we have:    http://www.bacharach-inc.com/fyrite_pro.htm

Nick-