1995 D3 - Questions

[k9disc]

Hey everyone.

Wondering what you all thought about getting a 95 D3 s60 with 630,000 on her for $8000.

Runs, moves well, airbags all fine, partial rebuild on motor (no cylinder kits), AC repairs have been an odyssey, one valve left to replace(?)...

Talked to the diesel shop that worked on the rig and he mentioned that she's getting close to a bull gear replacement (800-900K) and to redo the cylinders at that time. I was super gung ho about the deal until I got the numbers on bull gear failure or bull gear replacement with engine overhaul. That's a tough reality.

Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

Peace

[luvrbus]

All engines are a tough reality $$$$$ when it comes time,a buddy of mine lost a cam bearing in a ISM  Cummins by the time Cummins finished cost him $37,812.18 thats more than his bus is worth   

[akroyaleagle]

misposted

[chessie4905]

So much for the 60 series being so great.They all have issues of some sort or other. As long as the buyer is well informed on potential major issues down the road. Maybe you could pick up an engine with lower miles.

[eagle19952]

So much for the 60 series being so great.They all have issues of some sort or other. As long as the buyer is well informed on potential major issues down the road. Maybe you could pick up an engine with lower miles.

Easier/cheaper to do with a v71 or v92 series

[k9disc]

So much for the 60 series being so great.They all have issues of some sort or other. As long as the buyer is well informed on potential major issues down the road. Maybe you could pick up an engine with lower miles.

The motor had work, I thought it was a top end rebuild, but some other stuff was done, don't know why they didn't do a full rebuild. It was handled in a motor pool at a large college, so I think the mechanic might have had solid knowledge and just had the work done that was necessary.

But I wish it were fully rebuilt. It kind of busted my groove.

I'm kind of looking for some pro-con stuff, hand holding and whatnot...

Been really thinking about a modern coach, but when I got the quote on motor AND bull gear it really threw me for a loop. I think they are just all ugly decisions.

Went and checked out a Prevost H3-41 today. Similar kind of ugly decisions. So much nice about the rig, then a few bummers.

Problem is we'll be laying ourselves out a bit more on the more modern coach shell.

[buswarrior]

How many miles are you going to put on this thing in how long?

If that has 630k now... in busnut use, the bull gear will come due in, oh, idk, 2055?

From the first busnut pioneers all the way to us today, buying an old coach has risk.

If the coach engine is in good shape, it is still capable of making income, and priced accordingly.

No free lunch.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[windtrader]

Don't get frustrated and anxious. You are doing very well doing your due diligence and asking the tough questions. The answers aren't very pleasant but rest assured it is a whole lot easier than having bought a sick one that immediately becomes a bottomless bit for all your energy and money.

I looked at mid 90's D3, specifically 1995 102D3 with Series 60/Allison B500 combo and DDEC III/IV? ECM. They are out there in well maintained shape for about 15k. That is in stock OTR configuration.

The folks here guided me away from a DIY conversion to finding an already converted coach. Very good value as it will cost you much more to DIY than buy another's already done project. The problem is there are very few really good conversions based on mid 90's shells, at least in my price range.

It's just the nature of the beast., Many conversions were done in the mid 90's, based on 20 year old buses. That is why you see many late 70's, early 80's buses with dated conversions done in the mid 90's. In fact, if you bring the clock to present, you are thinking about doing the same thing. Buy a 20 year old mid 90's bus and DIY convert it. You will follow the same tracks as those before you and pour 6 figures into it and several years to get it done. Then get rudely slapped to find it is worth cents on the dollar.

[scanzel]

Look at buses from Florida or California no east coast salt corrosion issues. I bought my 1989 Prevost on  Ebay with all seats removed, picked it up in Nevada and drove home to Connecticut. It has 684,000 miles, has a Reliabuilt silver 8v92. The hub meter showed 250,000 when I picked it up so I assume that is what is on the 8V92 for miles. Cheap is not always the way to go find the best you can afford. Unless you can do all the work yourself it will cost $$$$. Good Luck !! 

[k9disc]

buswarrior - We'll be putting 15-30K per year on it. Thanks for the probing/leading question. Good stuff, for sure.

scanzel - bus is a SE bus, so should be much better than north or NE rigs.

windtrader - I'm not sure if a fully converted bus is going to work for us. We have about 50-60sf of crating space for the dogs that must be accessible and efficient. We are also very spartan when it comes to lifestyle -- we live in on the ground floor of a factory now, and have put together the whole 3000sf space with found items and elbow grease.

We also have access to some amazing shops and our family are capable of the technical coach work (plumbing, electric, cabinetry).

The plan is to get the bus, remove seats (if not already done), re-floor, drop our genny in, bed, plumbing for toilet/shower/sink, and hit the road.

Big work on interior to come at downtime at one of the family shops.

I'm thinking we can roll like Zephod for a while on the cheap? Is that out of line?

[buswarrior]

Without verification, that mileage figure is wind noise in the trees.

Way too low for a coach that age, unless it has been doing unusual things. To earn it's purchase price, it needed to haul @$# close on 100k a year to make the payments, and each subsequent owner had to do the same.

The engine ECM will tell the tale, or tell you how long it has been installed. That's some of the game. Swapping ECM to cover the reality is not unheard of...

IF the engine mileage can be reliably estimated, build into your business plan some engine preventive maintenance spending out in year 3 or 4 and down the road you go? Do not subsidize your doggie business model with the coach's maintenance budget...!!!

Remember, perspective: all of us with old 2 strokes are looking down the barrel of a $25 000 gun, if we blow ours up and have to pay...

At the $8k price point, I'd expect the interior is getting shop-worn, pieces missing in the overheads, nicks and dings?

If the interior is beautiful and fresh.... you need to wonder what's going on?

If this is where you go, have one of the coach re-fit companies remove the interior for their future use and barter some other stuff you need from them?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[k9disc]

Without verification, that mileage figure is wind noise in the trees.

Way too low for a coach that age, unless it has been doing unusual things. To earn it's purchase price, it needed to haul @$# close on 100k a year to make the payments, and each subsequent owner had to do the same.

The engine ECM will tell the tale, or tell you how long it has been installed. That's some of the game. Swapping ECM to cover the reality is not unheard of...

IF the engine mileage can be reliably estimated, build into your business plan some engine preventive maintenance spending out in year 3 or 4 and down the road you go? Do not subsidize your doggie business model with the coach's maintenance budget...!!!

Remember, perspective: all of us with old 2 strokes are looking down the barrel of a $25 000 gun, if we blow ours up and have to pay...

At the $8k price point, I'd expect the interior is getting shop-worn, pieces missing in the overheads, nicks and dings?

If the interior is beautiful and fresh.... you need to wonder what's going on?

If this is where you go, have one of the coach re-fit companies remove the interior for their future use and barter some other stuff you need from them?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Thanks buswarrior.

The vehicle is a large university rig, maintained at the motor pool with copious documentation -- 63 pages with mileage from 2003 -- so it ferried college students and sports teams. Big work was farmed out. Not really a money maker kind of rig, I think.

Interior is listed as a fault, but I'm pretty sure that disclaimer is for tour service, which is not applicable to us.

Love the idea of bartering with a refit company. If I pull the trigger I'll need some additional info on that.

peace~

[k9disc]

IF the engine mileage can be reliably estimated, build into your business plan some engine preventive maintenance spending out in year 3 or 4 and down the road you go? Do not subsidize your doggie business model with the coach's maintenance budget...!!!

The plan is to lose our monthly factory rent and leverage that towards maintenance, operation, and repairs. We've been at home, in NY at the factory, for less than 2 months of the last 2 years, and we've had some changes within the city that makes handling our pack of dogs difficult.

Anyone got some guesstimates of 20-30K per year in preventative maintenance on a modern coach? On an older model?

[k9disc]

Here are the last 4 years of maintenance records. I had to interpret them a bit, as most of is is purchase order stuff.

This goes back to 2003:
5/9/17 - Oil 75,339
5/2/17 - Cooling Drive Belt 75,339
3/21/17 - AC Repair 74,601
1/13/17 - Oil 72,815
11/30/16 - Park Brake Control Valve - 73,011
11/10/16 - Amber Marker Lights - 72,457
10/4/16 - air dryer cartridge and purge valve - 70,701
9/27/16 - Grease Chassis - 70,214
9/27/16 - 55 Gallon Oil 70,214
9/27/16 - Air Filter #8823
9/27/16 - Headlight
9/27/16 - Oil Filter
      Secondary Fuel Filter
      Primary Fuel Filter
9/22/16 - Air Brake Dryer Cartridge
9/14/16 - LH Tag Tire 69,562
5/20/16 - Air System inlet schrader valve 66,441
5/18/16 - driveline joint 66,441
5/17/16 - Tag Axle Tires
4/5/16 - Park Brake Handle
2/18/16 - Oil Change - 62,856
10/29/15 - Upper Radius Rod 60,436
      Lower Radius Rod
      Bellow Assembly w/ Piston
10/8/15 - 55 Gallon Oil (change) 59,484
8/31/15 - AC Panel Hair Filter 59,019
      Brake Lining on new shoes
8/11/15 - AC recharge, low side service, pull vacuum 58,253
7/28/15 - Rt Steering Axle Air Bag 58,211
      Drive Axle Shoe (less brake lining)
7/23/15 - Air Filter 58,192
      Grease Chassis
      Oil Change
      Secondary Fuel Filter
      Primary Fuel Filter
      Oil Filter
      Antifreeze
      
7/14/15 - RH outer Drive tire 58,118
7/1/15 - Steering Axle Brakes 57,865
      Reline shoes #4228 lining
6/7/15 - Rear Brake Spring 57,865
      ft & tag axle brake spring
      steering lh slack adjuster
      rh slack adjuster
      drive axle brake drums
      steer axle brake drums
      tag axle shocks
      Tag axle airbags
      rh & lh drive axle slack adjuster
      8 wheels & stems
6/15/15 - Reupholster drivers seat 57,865
5/18/15 - Refurbish AC Heather Blower Motor
3/30/15 - Heater Blower resistor 55,776
3/10/15 - Evaporator / Heater Blower Motor 54,448
---
Dropped the 500,000 moniker and went to ten thousandths place... go math!
---
1/14/15 - Headlight 552,952
11/4/14 - Marker Light Bulbs
10/31/14 - Air Reducer at Dryer
   Reman Air Dryer assembly
10/29/15 - AC Belt Set 551,938
9/18/14 - AC Recharge and Fix 549,907
8/14/14 -High idle repair 549,606
      2 tires
7/17/14 - Trans Fluid 549,573
6/16/15 - Belt Guide Bearing 548,553
      Belt Guide Shaft
      Lav Slide Valve
      AC Belt
      Alternator Assembly
5/9/14 - Refurb Heater Blower @$# 548,377
4/11/14 -  Oil Pressure Sending Unit
3/7/14 - Air Dryer Pop Off Valve 545,456
2/10/14 - Trans Shift Pad 543,811
      Heater Circuit Breaker
      Turn Signal Clapper
      Heater Blower Resistor
12/30/13 - R&R King Pins Front End Align
11/22/13 - 2 Drive or Tag Axle tires 542,595
11/21/13 - PStrg Gearbox @$# 542,595
11/18/13 - Air Filter
      Grease Chassis
      Oil Change
      Secondary Fuel Filter
      Primary Fuel Filter
      Oil Filter
10/31/13 - LH Headlight Wire Harness 540,857
      Tag  Light HSG & Pigtail
10/4/13 - Steering Axle Tire 539,113
4/19/13 - Repair Baldor Electric Motor 536,084
4/11/13 - Engine Repair (all but cylinders) 535,112
      2 Batteries (warranty)
      Power Steering Oil

I'm not sure how to read these, and oil was purchased in bulk at multiple times for the fleet. Couldn't tell when oil changes were done, but there was a lot of oil referenced more than quarterly.

Any thoughts on this insanity?

[windtrader]

I'm thinking we can roll like Zephod for a while on the cheap? Is that out of line?

You'll need to get Zephod to report in. AFAIK, he is not travelling anywhere near the miles you plan.

One benefit of Series 60 is it is a four stroke that will go much further before rebuilds and also get better mileage than the older two strokes. The electronic control adds complexity and likely more dependence on shop labor, i.e. more $$$

$8K is very very low. It may be a diamond in the rough. Still, make sure you have it checked out by a pro. There are many more 4 stroke qualified bus mechanics around. Ah, another benefit of Series 60 - qualified service is much easier to find.

Being spartan is a big benefit with respect to what you need inside. You don't need anything done except tear out the seats, throw down a mattress, and go. Put a camp stove in, poo at the fast food store, and bath in the river. Bottled water and you're good to go.