Options, Advice, Decisions Part 2

[windtrader]

@John,
Somber and sobering report. In your case, you had the means to pay up to keep up. Your comment about the cost of bus parts and service is the real sticking point for me. You know the saying being nickel and dime to death. As a bus owner the saying is similar but 100 dollar bills rather than nickels.

All your comments are bringing into focus what it means to qualify as a bus nut. Like other hobbies, the upfront cost to purchase a bus is really just the down payment with plenty of ongoing costs to be expected. Feels like racing sports that suck every spare dollar to keep playing.

Another point raised earlier by another member is the reality of the condition of a used bus being put out of service. It may be running alright at the moment but the toll from all those trips are stored up in every nook and cranny just waiting to start pouring out.

And like any used motor vehicle you can have everything up to date but there is no getting around it is a huge bucket of used parts.

Sort of common sense why a truly solid buses cost a 300 grand and up. At the low end where we generally dabble no wonder why one could rightly label them "beaters".

I guess all you can do if you venture onward is to do as much due diligence before buying and just pay homage to the bus gods for a good stretch of problem free road ahead

[Geoff]

One of my friends in the bus charter business did an excellent job of maintaining his buses.  But then when they got old, he talked about the buses being ready for a do-it-yourself bus converter.  In other words, they were past the point of maintaining them and ready for someone to convert them as a retired bus.  And that is what you are going to get when you buy a used bus.  Some buyers are luckier than others and get one that requires very little mechanical work.

For myself, I bought an RTS with glowing testimonials about the company that owned and maintained them.  Nevertheless, I rebuilt everything mechanical before i even started the conversion.  I would rebuild something mechanical and go for a long test drive.  I drove a metal tent for 5 years before I even started on the inside conversion into a motor home.  That gave me a lot of time to think the conversion out and do the plumbing and electrical first so everything would be in the right place.  Then I spent another five years building the inside of the bus.  I can honestly claim I did the whole conversion except the paint job.

When you go through 10 years to convert a bus with no interior or mechanical issues when finished you build a bond with your bus.  I love driving it more than camping in it, but when i am camped in it, I enjoy using it and love having everything working like it is supposed to.  Its not for sale.

--Geoff

[kyle4501]

New isn't always better, old isn't always worn out.
We have a friend with an American Eagle - all paint & polish, not much substance. It is only a few years old, but even they noticed our 30 year old Newell is in better condition.

Our coach has 150k miles, theirs has less than 20k. They paid almost 10 times what we paid. 

I had a very reputable shop check our coach out. All the chassis is in excellent condition with nothing showing any wear or damage. There are some issues, but they are minor (mostly  ) & I am having fun 'bonding' with mine.

My old 2 stroke gets mine to the campground same as his modern 4 stroke.

I did the Suburban pulling a 32 ft Airstream - we LOVE the MH so much more. Set up at the campground is so much simpler with the MH. When it gets to the point the maintenance over powers my bank account, I don't know what I'll do, but it won't likely be anything involving a trailer.



So, keep looking & don't assume the stereotypes are always right.

[windtrader]

Your journey epitomizes the classic definition labor of love. I've read so much the source is a blur but it seems the better managed fleet managers carefully monitor the condition of the bus including regular oil samples for a very good read on the condition of the motor and the timing of upcoming issues. With millions in rolling stock, tracking and unloading buses likely to have a costly repair just makes good business sense.

[windtrader]

@Kyle - At 150k, that is really low mileage on the coach and drive train for a bus. So, you should expect to have few issues. It is quite another if comparing to a retired passenger bus with a rolled over odometer.

With all the great input here, I decided to look at more already converted buses. At least I'll learn more about what's ahead.

Thanks

[sixtyseven]

Geoff, 
Your post brought back some good memories.    When you said  "I drove a metal tent for 5 years"  it reminded me of when my kids were young and they called our coach "The tin tent"  when it was at that
empty shell, plywood floor stage.   Fun times

Don, 
FWIW  In the past I had a travel trailer, then a fifth wheel, now my Prevost.    Which would I pick if I was to choose again?    Bus Conversion.....by far !   
If I had to go back to dragging a trailer, I would be envious of every coach I passed along the road.   And yes, that even includes doing all the work of making an old charter bus into a new one, and then converting it myself.  (Actually myself, my wife, and 2 very ambitious kids) 
Joe

[sixtyseven]

Oh, and one other thing.....Don't be afraid of a 2 stroke.    I just recently finished a 12,530 mile vacation with mine.    It purred like a kitten the whole trip.    There's good stories out there too

[TomC]

Like Geoff, I bought a transit bus-albeit the older square design. My AMGeneral is very simple. I have replaced or rebuilt everything in the engine compartment, new air bags, converted air steering to Sheppard hydraulic. Strangely, the only thing not replaced is the brakes-which are still in great shape.
I bought the bus for $4000. About $100,000 later-still going strong. Going to Pahrump, Nv next week, then Tucson for the Escapees get together. Good Luck, TomC

[B_K]

Don all of the above is excellent and wise advice.
Each and everyone who has posted advice for you has different views of their ideal situation, but that is what makes us all unique and also makes the world go round!

Myself, I will NEVER go the Sticks and Staples (S&S) route!
I just don't trust the way they are built.

But I agree with all 3 sides of the bus end of the deal DIY, store bought, and someone else's conversion.
As pointed out the price of used completed coaches these days are LOW!

Now myself I will be converting one of my retired chater buses when the day comes as I all ready own them. And I know the coach inside and out having maintained them for years now.

What is going to be new to me is learning HOUSE systems and all that goes with them.
But I am willing to go that route to A) build it my way! B) build it as time & $ allow! C) because I've always been a knucklehead and done things the "hard way"!

Now that said if you want to look at all ready done coaches there are a LOT of places to look starting with craigslist, ebay, and many other conventional places people sell stuff.

Now also consider places like Buck's page Clifford suggested.
Here on BCM's Classified adds http://www.busconversions.com/bcmclassifieds/index.php
BNO's Classified page and many other websites solely for the purpose of selling used coaches.
Just beware of ALL sites  an do your homework! Don't be afraid to ask about this seller, that seller or even particular coaches.
Many of us here know about sellers with bad reputations (Sam Walker, Easter's etc) and as you noticed with the link you posted of the 2 cl listings YODA immediately told you who and what engine the first one had.

Now personally if I had the financing to jump "all in" and outright buy a pre-converted  coach in the $50,000 range I'd seriously take into consideration Wulf's Dina listed here on BCM https://www.busconversions.com/bcmclassifieds/classified.php?n=2703

Yes I know the asking price is $9000 higher than your said budget. BUT it is an ASKING PRICE and maybe negotiable!
But it has some serious potential as it IS a 60 series, it IS a 102" wide coach, it is a 43' coach that is just as easy to maneuver as a 35' foot coach and easier than MOST 40-45' coaches (especially MCI's) I personally have owned the exact same model and can attest to it's ruggedness and durability! (not to mention looks good too!)
Wulf's bus has even been on my property once at one of the rally's I held. But I had to run a charter and passed it on the highway when he was headed to my place, and the next morning before I got out of bed (I drove ALL night) he headed out! Everyone that did tour it at my place told me it was a top notch coach.

Just my 2 cents!
  BK 

[Oonrahnjay]

     I just had an idea, BK.  There ought to be a "knucklehead" section at bus rallies.  I'm sure that we'd get lots of people to park over there with us!

[uncle ned]

Yes a knucklehead section sounds good.  than I would not have to park over in the corner by myself.

uncle ned

[belfert]

conversion, rather add more newer buses clients want anyway. With odometer reading 0079507, it must have flipped right? So coach has just rolled over a million?

It could also be that the speedometer failed and unit was replaced.  A speedometer replacement should be in the logs for the bus if the company kept detailed records.

I have made close to 20 trips in my bus that were each over 1,000 miles and most of them were right at 4,000 miles and got home every time.  I have had some minor breakdowns on the road, but only one required a mobile mechanic.  My bus has never been towed on the road, nor been in a shop on the road for unplanned work.  I have a mechanical friend who goes with most of the time.  Between the two of us we have been able to fix every roadside issue (except when needed mobile mechanic) with some rudimentary knowledge and help from this board.  The mobile mechanic thing was stupid.  I keep a tub of spare parts like belt, fluids, fuel filters, and hose clamps and hoses.  The hose clamps have been used the most of anything.

BK mentioned a DINA bus.  I like a lot of things about my DINA bus, but many unique parts are hard to find or obsolete.  Not a lot of DINA were ever made so very few in bone yards.  The wear parts are available for the most part.  MCI sold the DINA buses and they still sell part like windshields, brake parts, and so on.

[windtrader]

@67 - Agree totally  with the lack of interest in pulling a trailer. Also, the phobia and fear of 2 strokes is sufficiently suppressed. LOL

@TomC - ....and after $100k. You have far more fortitude than I on this "hobby". If I find myself a full timer, I may put greater value on the "house: rather than the "RV".

@B_K - Lots of good advice. Please check the email listed in your profile.

@etal - Reserve me a spot in the knucklehead area of the rallies. I surely qualify.

@belfert - If I continue to pursue the full on DIY conversion, I will surely study all the docs. I asked to fleet owner for them. Will carefully research.

[Scott & Heather]

John3:16 has probably had one of the worst bus experiences I've seen on the forum. And he's been burned a little by it. I don't blame him at all for ditching the sport. We've Fulltimed for almost 7 years now across two buses (both entirely converted ourselves including roof raise) and we have had our share of sideliner experiences but for the most part, I haven't wanted to ditch the bus. Sift carefully through some of John3:16's experiences. Some of those are preventable. For example:

1. he spent time and money trying to maintain the bus OTR a/c system. Most of the forum members on here for years have been suggesting that a converter just remove the OTR a/c and install roof airs. We did this on both of our coaches and we haven't had a lick of issues with our roof airs. They are crazy reliable. Didn't cost a penny to remove the OTR a/c and actually received some money from scrap  to help pay for roof airs. That's a preventable expense.

2. Rust issues. He mentioned a tag axle support rusting through costing him $5000. This is a lesson to triple inspect the coach before buying to ensure you don't find rust. You will find several people here willing to tell you where the trouble spots were for certain years. Really really important. We bought our newest coach in Texas. Not a spot of rust anywhere. Literally. Don't buy it if it's rusty. This is a preventable expense.

3. He lost an air compressor. $1500 is a lot of dough. You can replace this yourself though and save hundreds of dollars on Labor. I have a spare rebuilt compressor sitting in a trailer so when mine dies, I'll have one ready to go. A rebuilt unit is in the $300-400 range. Why pay almost $1200 for someone else to do a job you could do in a long day?

4. Brake work. We just had our brakes redone all the way around and were out about $3000 that included some bearings replaced and swapping oil hubs to greased ones. We will not have to touch the brakes again for a long time. So long that if you amortize the cost over the years we will drive before needing brake work again, it's negligible. I don't know what undercarriage parts he rebuilt but brake work isn't something you'll do every year if you aren't driving it tons of miles.

The transmission failure is a total bummer. Trans or engine failures are not cool and I feel pain for those who do through it. The vast majority of us have never experienced any major system failure like this though. I'm feeling like John3:16's coach was run hard and put up wet. It's just one of those things...he had a rough go at bus life and it's really really good to hear honest people like him to keep things real about how it can go when you own one of these things, I just wanted to add a little perspective on the other side of the coin to so as to keep the pendulum from swinging too much.

We owned our 1984 MCI-9 for 6 years. We raised the roof 9" and converted it into a really comfy full time home. We drove it all over the country. It was slow, but amazingly reliable. Here are the issues we had:

1. Radiators were corroded and leaking coolant. Replaced them with rebuilt units I found on Craigslist. $1000 for the pair. I did the replacement myself (was a couple day job for me) and those rads will last easily 20 years using Detroit powercool coolant.

2. I snapped a cooling fan belt. Replaced that on the side of the road with the spare I always keep with me.

That's it. 6 years of full timing and 60,000 miles not a single issue besides those two.

We've owned our current 1992 102C3 for a couple of years now and have had a relay die which was a pain to find but a $15 fix, and we have as mentioned replaced the brakes and bearings because of a bad install at a truck shop. So far I'm out about $3000 for the brakes and bearing snafoos but again, I won't have to mess with those again for a long long time.  As Geoff said, baseline your coach before you start converting so that you know your mechanical and chassis foundation is solid, then do the fun part: the conversion. Remember, forums like ours attract and put on display the problems. Very rarely does anyone pop on here to say "hey, I have had a bus conversion for 6 years and have had zero issues!!!!" Those are just not threads you see much. Most people find the forum because they had a problem and are trying to find a fix. Go into this with your eyes (and wallet lol) wide open but don't be scared of a very fun and rewarding hobby.



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[luvrbus]

LOL the words hobby and buses do not belong in the same sentence or paragraph,I have 2 of the hobbies at my shop and those so called "hobbies" are both a expensive fix   so do your home work and cover all the bases.
These old buses were taken out of revenue service for a good reason like the out flow of cash was more than the incoming cash flow, simple math is not complicated.
If buying a bus with oil bath air cleaners check it real close owners do not service those well because of the trouble and that causes lot of engine problems