Options, Advice, Decisions Part 1

[Iceni John]

Lastly, I'd like to exploit the newest battery, inverter, lighting, and solar technologies to power the house power systems. Can't wait to take on challenge of designing the most efficient system. When one thinks about powering a car with batteries, it doesn't seem so far fetched to run a RV house system for a few days off the grid. Just think, no generator. I do think one can get a wrecked Leaf or other e-car and harvest the battery, transformer,  and AC power charging system for less than a new 7500 Onan. Who does that?

I would suggest being not quite so keen to embrace all the latest battery technologies, at least not right now.   Good ol' flooded lead-acid batteries, specifically get-anywhere cheapo golfcart batteries, are still the most cost-effective batteries in terms of $ per watt/hour.   Lithium offers a lot, but it's not a mature technology, yet  -  Technomadia use lithiums in their 4104, but those folk are way more tech-savvy than I'll ever be!   I have 2kW of solar, and that should be plenty for off-grid self-sufficiency wherever I intend to be throughout the year.   My criteria is simple  -  no darned generator!   Silence is golden.   I get a kick knowing that my house batteries are always being charged whenever the sun's shining, wherever I am.

John

[windtrader]

@kyle - Thanks, another buy already converted or RV story. Newell is very expensive so they are not on my list. If I may ask what sort of budget did you have for your diy project what you bought? So many comments tell me a DIY bus conversion will cost more than buying an already converted bus conversion, a fair apples-apples comparison. Comparing a bus conversion to a factory built RV seems hard to do unless you compare the really high end factory RV built on a commercial motor coach bus. Even then, it seems very rare for a DIY to put same level of uber quality features and amenities found in the factory bus conversions.

That said, I totally see the logic in something less than a bus motor and coach. I would never put enough miles on the coach to justify the need for a Series 60 for example. A smaller power plant would be fine as long as I can get a couple hundred thousand reliable miles.

@John, I did read through the Technomadia experience with batteries. He did venture early with no prior subject expertise and made numerous mistakes but through the blog he learned over time and seems to have it working alright. He paid way too much too for the packs. I design, spec,  and build my own battery packs, BMS, transformers, and charging/float systems, selecting the optimal OEM cells while saving tons of money. When I get to that point, I'll check my hunch that pulling a system from a crashed e-car may be the fastest and cheapest way to go.

Lithium is mature enough to be found in many commercial applications. The Leaf and Volt have been on the market for 7 years. Working in Silicon Valley where there are thousands of e-vehicles gives me a different perspective. It truely is ridiculous how many there are. Nissan ran a $99/mo Leaf promo; the true kicker is you get a sticker to run in the HOV lanes. Seems like every other car is a Leaf.

There will surely be more advancements but it is proving out. This is for the house power only. Do not see any benefit on touching the starting system.

Thanks

[sixtyseven]

I'm pretty sure that the only bad year for a Prevost was 1985. Beyond that, I have no further input.   

Yeah,  But still not quite as crappy as the 78 Eagles

[luvrbus]

I don't know your price range but there is a 1981-35 ft Prevost converted by ForeTravel for sale in Cave Creek AZ with 153,000 miles total, check C/L for the listing he asking $49,000 but I bet you can buy it for lot less .
There is also a 1980 Eagle built by B&B Coach in Vegas for sale on C/L in ShoLow Az 40 ft for 40K asking but he will trade and it is a nice Eagle just needs a little updating lol I know what he paid Gary to redo and convert that one 40k was the down payment 

[windtrader]

The options are overwhelming when you lose your focus for a second. There are so so many ways to go. Without some hard and fast criteria, I just spin around. That is why setting a few hard criteria helps me. For example, finding a bus with a Series 60 really narrows the search. Based on the wonderful comments here, spent the whole day off looking into the RV world.

Here is my newest thoughts.
option - 2-strokes.
Even if the motor was just factory rebuilt and highly reliable, it remains a 2 stroke and is less fuel efficient. It does seem about 2 mpg less than the Series 60, 5-6 vs 7-8. Qualified 2 stroke bus mechanics are fewer and farther between. Luck plays a big part in an unplanned breakdown on the road. Odds are far better finding a qualified and reasonable priced DD mechanic to fix and get parts quickly and less costly. Mostly missing from 2 stroke conversations is projecting time a dozen years ahead. Today a common quote is finding a good "old-time" 2 stroke mechanic as they haven't taught it for years and most do not have practical experience. Time only increases this reality, only making it even harder to get service and parts. Resale potential erodes as well since fewer buyers are willing to own a vehicle that's harder to service. 2-stroke is not going to pull up over the Sierras like a Series 60.


option 4-strokes
Until the past couple years, it seems a solid, used Series 60 was beyond most DIY budgets, so lots of bus nuts here are comfortable with the older 2 strokes. As time moves forward, more Series 60 buses become available at more affordable prices while service and parts remain in ample supply. Again, look ahead 10 years and a Series 60 is going to be easier to get service and parts. Resale potential will likely be better than a 2 stroke.

option - RV and already converted bus
After many hours looking again at many, I just don't like what I see. I'm convinced the styles I'm considering are going to be custom built.
Here is a link to a few snapshot offering design elements I like. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gruym9ocml1ylr2/AAD76SEdZ_xOrQZbMI0VI5xla?dl=0

Another style considered would be a sleek euro look. Think Ikea.

[lostagain]

A 2 stroke gets 7 ish mpg. 8 ish for a S60, at least in my experience. A couple miles per gallon difference is not a significant factor while travelling. You'll spend more money on other things.

Are you a mechanic? 2 strokes aren't hard to maintain and fix with the Detroit service manual. If you are not, any bus, old or newer, or sticks and staples is going to cost a lot to maintain and repair.

Power: I souped up my 6V92TA with bigger injectors and a turbo to match, to give me 350 hp and 1050 ft/lb of torque. I pass most loaded semis up the hills. A bus with a 8V92TA will outrun many S60s. So don't overlook the DD 2 strokes.

Don't overthink this too much. Go look at bus conversions for sale. Some are old, some are new, some have 2 strokes, some 4 strokes. As long as it is in good shape, not rusty, well maintained upstairs and downstairs. A good one will last you the rest of your life. And don't worry about resale too much, because no matter what, it will be worth only a small fraction of what you have in it come time to sell...

Good luck.

JC

[windtrader]

Don't overthink this too much

JC, Thanks a lot. This I am guilty of big time. I plan on doing as much of the maintenance as possible but know major work will be a barrier. If motor needs to come out, I don't have the proper gear to remove safely. A two ton motor qualifies as well as other heavy parts I'm sure.

2-stroke vs 4-stroke. There are so many more options if keeping 2 strokes on the list, far fewer with 4-strokes in my budget. When need to pay for pro service, what is your opinion about cost differences and finding qualified service on the road? My impression is a 2 stroke is going to cost more in parts and quality service if needed on the road. Maybe i am overthinking an unplanned breakdown but the stories I have read make me want to get this right.

[lostagain]

The rare occasion when the engine has to come out on a road trip is if it dies completely. That only happens once every several million miles. Hopefully all the preventive maintenance, including an overhaul/rebuild, is done at home to prevent breaking down on the road. If it happens, you should have road side assistance such as Coachnet to get towed to a diesel shop. Of course a shop to fix a 4 stroke like a S60 is easier to find than one for a 2 stroke. I think any town of significant size has a diesel shop that will fix a Detroit 2 stroke. Not cheap, easily $20k for a rebuild. But fixing a S60 isn't any cheaper. If you start with a good engine and maintain it properly, like having the correct antifreeze in it and changing it at the right intervals for instance, you should not worry about a total break down. At most it will be stuff that can be fixed in a few minutes, or 2 or 3 days at most. These buses were designed to run 24/7 with heavy duty drive trains that, in revenue service, were only shut down every 250 hrs for oil changes. The more you use your bus, the better it runs.

JC

[Astro]

I agree with JC. I have had my bus for 11 months now. I spent the first 8 months putting in a new interior before departing on my maiden voyage. That was 3 1/2 months and 7000 miles ago. The only thing I did to the engine was changed the fluids and then slapped on new tires and loaded it up.

The old 2-stroke roars to life in a touch of the button and purrs like a tiger all day long. She may crawl up the hills, but she tightens up and pulls like a sled dog to the top. I like the old school metal body and classic looks of the older busses. I would never discount the classics with the 2-stokes. They are fun as hell to drive.

[kyle4501]

My budget was $40 to $50k.
My Newell is a '87 model which is referred to as a classic ,102 wide, 40ft with a tag axle, ~155k miles. A 475hp 8V92. 300 gallons of diesel fuel, 125 gal fresh water & 145 gal waste. 12 gal water heater, 12.5 Kohler generator, etc.
It goes up hills just fine.

Newells are built on their own frame/ chassis. But, they only build about 30/ year, so selection is limited.

I have seen several Newell coaches sell for less than $25k - and they were in usable as is condition, so don't be too quick to discount them. Wanderlodge is also a very good platform with the support from a large owners group.
My Newell weighs 36,000#
Wonderlodges use steel body siding instead of aluminium & weigh in around the 45,000#

From my recent experiences/ difficulties in getting my cars repaired, I am so glad my 8V92 is pre-computer. Computers have really improved performance of engines, but also add another layer of complexity for DIY owners.

2-strokes are still very popular in the military and marine applications. MTU is still making parts & new engine assemblies, so the 2-stroke is far from dead.

Any engine that runs good will work fine. The older you get, the more your knee will appreciate an automatic transmission. With mechanical house systems already installed, the interior can be remodeled to suit your needs without breaking the bank.

Relax, save up more $$$, travel to see any good coach you find in your price range and HAVE FUN with the search.

[windtrader]

@lostagain - Agree a major breakdown on the road is rare, can be really expensive, and financially draining. There are no guarantees in life, right? Practically, one can practice due diligence well to get the best estimate of the condition of the running gear. When compared to cars, rarely does one worry about a well maintained car throwing a piston on a road trip. Thanks for putting in perspective.

@Astro - Trilled to hear your progress. Hoping to follow a similar path and same joy!

@Kyle - Appreciate the details. ECM in busses, same as with cars. Old oldies are really easy to DIY but are accompanied by decades older engineering and design. On the other hand, the ECM better protects motors and provides much more useful diagnostic logs so better to know the history as well as diagnose issues.

I totally get the approach of starting with an already converted coach. When you put all the stuff you need in a spreadsheet and read the bottom line it is really a huge wakeup call how it adds up. There are so many items that are overlooked on the back of a napkin when thinking about starting with a passenger coach.

The feedback here is very useful to me. It really is making me think hard and rethink my key criteria and target bus. Other than the main concern about 2 stroke parts and service, looking for an already converted 2 stroke makes so much common sense including the trill of taking a road trip right away. Once in use, one can thoughtfully make interior alterations as desired.

[kyle4501]

On the other hand, the ECM better protects motors and provides much more useful diagnostic logs so better to know the history as well as diagnose issues.

That is true --IF the ecm is working  -- AND IF you have something that can read it. 

I have a wonderful car in the driveway that even the dealer can't determine why the engine runs perfectly but electronics don't work.

[eagle19952]

color=red]design elements I like.[/color] https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gruym9ocml1ylr2/AAD76SEdZ_xOrQZbMI0VI5xla?dl=0

Another style considered would be a sleek euro look. Think Ikea.

Spoken like a true BusNut. nothing $$ can't solve

[RJ]

Don -

Why don't you get out and go take a look at a few bus conversions?

For example: https://sacramento.craigslist.org/rvs/6021021613.html  The particular powertrain in this one makes it a real hotrod!

There's also a Facebook page "Bus Conversions For Sale" that has a ton of listings - including a really nice MC-8 that's in Fairfield.

You need to get away from the computer and all your over-thinking and go take a look.  All the planning in the world is nothing compared to actually seeing them in person and gathering more intelligent intelligence.

This coming weekend in Lytle Creek, CA (just N of San Bernadino) is a rally with 13 coaches.  The following weekend, in Pahrump, NV, there's going to be another rally, this one with 30 coaches.  Grab one of those gambler special flights to Las Vegas Friday after work and come out to see all the various flavors that will be in Pahrump - about an hour's drive from McCarren.  Would be well worth your time - IF you're serious.

FWIW & HTH. . .

[windtrader]

Hi RJ,
I do look at them.  It's not like I sit on the Internet all day. I did see that one. That bus just came onto CL. Agree it looks great but there are many 2 stroke conversions that are potential buys if I was convinced about going 2 stroke; it is a big decision criteria.

There aren't many 102D3 with Series 60 under 20k. I found 102C3 and other 102 wide 2 strokes. I spoke with Complete Coach Works today and they have DL but not 40'. Sent me some info on Van Hool but not interested.  I plan to visit later this week in Alameda.

Just curious. How many newer nuts are building based on 4 stroke buses? What percentage start new projects today on a 2 vs 4 stroke? Why or why not?  Is ECM something to be avoided? Is there some thinking 4 strokes are not as reliable or easy to find parts and service? Too costly vs olde 2 strokes? How many here drive factory built conversions based on commercial bus chassis?

I like your practical advice about doing some trial trips before jumping all in. As this is a very niche market/hobby, you need to plan on holding onto what you buy. Following the market for some months now demonstrates it is very hard to sell a bus. Very few actually sell. I was surprised when one did sell but it was still in service with current inspections and maintenance in a small fleet, so I suspect it was sold for use as a transport, not a conversion. Most of the 2 stroke conversions sadly do not move.