Newbies - Narrowing down our bus search

[pabusnut]

As everybody else has said--everything is a compromise!

BUT---HOW MUCH ARE YOU WILLING TO SPEND ON YOUR DREAM COACH!

I have a 40' long 4905, and love it--but I am not 6'4" tall!!  My wife and I are both 5'9"(and shrinking), and we can walk under the A/C just fine.  The 8V71 is coupled to a 4 speed manual, and does just fine going everywhere I want to go. 

There are no stock GMC's that would meet your criteria.  With a very substantial amount of work, you can raise the roof on a GM, but very few have done it, and I'm guessing that you would need about an 8" raise at the minimum.  There was a gentleman in Utah that raised the roof on a GM 4905, and did quite a nice job, and then quit for some reason and the coach is still unfinished.  If you hire someone to raise the roof, it may be quite expensive.  On my GMC, the road gears for 1st and Reverse, combined with the "wet" clutch make backing into campsites challenging.  You have to basically "stab and coast" to get into a tight site.  If you slip the clutch at all, you will burn it up!  My approach is to quickly release the clutch(at idle) and then engage it right away, basically just bumping the gear to get me moving a little bit.  If you let it in gear for any length of time, you will be on the other side of the campground in a hurry.  I think my GM can go like 20 mph backwards!!!!

The GMC is a fine coach, and the power steering works well(with the right fluid in it and all the fittings tightened   Even though I am a dyed-in-the-wool GM guy, I think you would be better with a MC-5(raised roof) or Bluebird PT-36 if you want to stay in the 35 ft range and get into state parks.  I would seriously consider an automatic, as getting into those tight sites in campgrounds with an automatic are very much less stressful at night/bad weather (or when anybody is watching).

The beauty of bus conversions is you can do it your way (credit FAST FRED), and you don't have to justify what you are doing to anyone other than yourself(and lovely better half )

Steve Toomey

[luvrbus]

  I admire you guys that can drive a 4905 man that thing takes a lot of space to turn my gate has been wiped out twice both times by a 4905A new owners 

[eagle19952]

perhaps cutting 5 feet out of an Eagle is the easier solution... roof raises on Eagles are child's play ( I am told )... start with a 8v92 model 10 and an Allison.
in fact that would be my dream backup coach

[RJ]

1. We like the GMCs, especially the 4107 and 4108, though it seems like they aren't tall enough on the interior and roof raises aren't common (or perhaps are ill advised by many).  We have visited a 4106 and contacted a bunch of other GMs...  all the GMCs we've heard from have low ceilings.  Are there 35 ft GMs that have taller interiors?

~~ The stock interior height for the GMC parlor cars (4104 > 4905) was 72" at the center aisle, with a sharply curved roof giving about 70" at the wall.
~~ When the 11'-tall Buffalos went into production, a lot of carriers were making more money downstairs with package express than they were with paying passengers.  Thus the large baggage bins, of which the 4905, even today, 36 years after they went out of production, still has more cubic feet than several of the current 45-foot models!  But GM also had to deal with low bridge heights, so had to design their coach to clear without taking off the roof.  The solution was the large baggage bins to meet the demand at the expense of interior headroom.  (Consider low bridges if you do a roof raise - see: http://11foot8.com/)
~~ GMC parlor cars have no frame, they're built like an airplane - the exterior skin carries the loads.  In the 30+ years I've fooled around the bus industry, I've only seen two successful roof raises on a GM coach in person.  One is still on the road, a 4106 that was so well done you have to take a second or third look to really see it.  (No, it's not mine, and no, it's not for sale.)  The other was on a 4905 that was poorly done and it showed - probably the ugliest GM I've ever seen.
~~ FYI, IMHO, the 35-foot 4107 & 4108 were the WORST handling highway coaches GMC ever built when the weather got bad, especially in high wind situations.  Add together a relatively short wheelbase, a large "sail" area plus a sharp crosswind and the results will send you across three lanes of traffic before you realize what's just happened.  Surprisingly, tho, it's big brother, the 4905 with it's longer wheelbase, didn't suffer this malady.

The two coaches I would recommend that you seriously, seriously consider would be the MCI 102C3 series and the Prevost H3-40/41, with a nod to the latter as better fitting your criteria.  Both are 40', both are 102" wide (which makes a BIG difference inside!) and both are available with 4-stroke engines (preferred nowadays.)  Interestingly, the H3 actually has a smaller turning radius than the 4107/8, yet it's five feet longer!  It also has the tallest stock interior height, at 77", which John would like!   

FWIW & HTH. . .



PS:  Please edit your forum profile to include your names and home base city/state so that we can better help you.  Simply click on the "Profile" menu tab above.  When the next screen appears, click on "Forum Profile Info" in the LH menu and follow the prompts.  TIA! 

[RJ]

Bus conversion - 35' max (and we want every inch of that!)

John & Deb -

I want you to seriously reconsider purchasing a 40-foot coach for one major reason: Your teen-aged daughter.

John probably won't understand this as quickly as Deb will, but your growing girl is really going to want to have her "space" inside this tin can on wheels.

Sure, Mom & Dad have that nice queen bed in the back, but do you really want her having to sleep on the sofa?  Especially if you're full-timing?

What if Mom & Dad are entertaining some fellow busnuts in the living room and your girl wants to turn in for the night?  Where's she going to go if her "bedroom" is the front couch?  Where's she going to put her things - in a box under the table?

No, a teen girl really needs her space, and for full-timing, a 35' coach won't meet that criteria.

FWIW & HTH. . .

[buswarrior]

Planning long boondocking with 3 people means a greater need for utilities space,

properly prepared for real winter conditions, insulation steals precious inches in every direction in the bays.

significantly sized water tanks, fresh/waste, fuel/propane/battery bank/ generator

Is the AC going on the roof to raise your clearance, or underneath, taking up bay space?

Heating systems suitable for comfortable winter living take up space and consume fuel. Make sure you design in redundancy to protect the utilities and the interior. Too few busnuts are designed to be happy in real winter conditions. tip: 40k BTU for the interior isn't enough, and don't put all your heating BTU eggs in one basket....

How tall do you want to be? How much water do you want to carry? How long do you want to be able to sit still in winter without fueling?

A 35 footer is rapidly being pushed off the table?

RJ's suggestion of Prevost H3 40/41 or MCI 102C3/102D3 are going to do what you are looking to do.

Prevost is taller with bigger bays, MCI is shorter with smaller bays.

Both can be had with manual or auto transmissions. If you are racing a Mini, one of these newer coaches will be just fine in stick shift for you.

MCI had an optional Cat engine coupled to a 7 speed Spicer that leveled out the hills....

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[RJ]

Manual transmission, diesel engine:  Prime factor here is fuel economy.

Fuel Mileage -
You're talking about fuel economy with a vehicle that has the aerodynamics of a brick and weighs fifteen tons or more?   

I tell people my MCI gets 13 mpg:  6.5 going eastbound plus 6.5 coming back westbound equals 13 mpg - just like the new Common Core Math!

The most common and popular bus conversion shells that most busnuts own average between 6 - 8 mpg.  The newer ones with the electronic engines pick up a mpg or two, but not much.  Plan and budget trips at 5 mpg (to include diesel generator run-time) and you won't be disappointed.

Transmissions -

90% of the busnuts who inhabit this forum - and most of the other bus-hobby related sites - will tell you to buy a coach that came from the factory with an automatic transmission for two major reasons: It's less fatiguing to drive (think heavy traffic) and it's far, far easier to wiggle into a campsite with one, especially if you're trying to back up a slight incline.  The first & reverse gearing in a highway coach gearbox is simply not low enough, making it far to easy to burn out an expensive clutch.  And the Getrag gearbox in the Mini is absolutely nothing compared to a 4-spd Spicer in terms of a challenge to drive.  As a retired bus driver trainer, I can tell you that it often takes thousands of miles before you finally figure out how to drive one smoothly.  Plus, and this is an important point:  You're not driving a sports car, you're driving a house on wheels!  You have to change your mindset to that of Aesop's Fable of The Tortoise and The Hare, and you're not the rabbit!!  The Allison line of automatics are virtually bullet-proof with simple preventative maintenance.  The 1-2 mpg sacrifice in fuel mileage is worth far more in convenience of operation.  Not to mention far easier to sell, should the time come.  DON'T compromise on this - regardless of what my good friend Buswarrior says!  (Hehehehehe. . .)

Speaking of the Mini, you won't have any problem towing it behind a 40' coach as far as overall length issues.  Folks with 45-foot rigs tow full-sized pickups and don't seem to be bothered, so that's really a non-issue.  BUT - 90% of the time, you're going to have to unhook the toad when it comes to setting up camp.  All part of the experience.

FWIW & HTH. . .

[buswarrior]

RJ is getting old...

Seriously, another advantage to an automatic: the engine is far less likely to have been oversped, and it will not have been lugged.

Detroit Series 60 and an Allison B500 is, by far, the most popular drive train in the target coaches.

Shall we start the retarder vs engine brake debate?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[pabusnut]

If you have a teen aged daughter then you need at least a 45 ft coach!!!  And you better fix up a baggage bay to sleep in yourself

[chessie4905]

I think if you scrape hard enough on a bluebird or a crown you'll find yellow paint......jmo. If you have been renting an RV for a few years,you likely aren't into the maintenance and costs associated with a coach conversion, especially if you can't do a lot of the work yourselves. Think hard before you go this way.

[luvrbus]

Todays 45 ft coaches are easier to maneuver around than the 35 ft coaches of yesterday.I am just amazed how the 45 ft D MCI I got from John and Steve maneuvers around in tight area lol but you need to watch the tail swing BW it has both the retarder and Jakes   

[Escape Velocity]

Thanks...  love repartee!  We appreciate the warm welcome.  I also updated our profile (thanks for the tip RJ).

Manual vs. Automatic:
In our discussions, John is willing to compromise on a manual before he's willing to compromise on height.  He believes the fuel economy will be be ~8 MPG for manual and ~6 MPG for an automatic.  Most of the information I've seen agrees with that.  He believes the 30% gain in fuel economy is worth a manual.

I'm appreciative of the (horror) stories about driving a manual, especially about burning up clutches.  I'm the original owner of my 2002 MINI Cooper S at 168,000 miles and I'm on my original clutch.  I believe driving well is a skill and I am not willing to have John be the only bus driver.  I'm fairly certain I could learn to drive a manual bus, though I admit I don't have a strong desire to do so.  I'm willing to trade fuel economy for daily driving ease.  We'll see where our search leads us.  As many of you have said...  compromises.

Height:
Remains non-negotiable.  We'll need a taller interior or we'll buy expecting to raise the roof.  I have no issue with height so I'll leave that one to him as I'm short.

Length:
We both agree 35 ft is best.  Many of the reasons all three of us have for wanting to fulltime make a 35 ft max our best choice.  We have traveled in many sizes of RVs, though we understand fulltiming will be different than renting.  We haven't owned an RV yet mostly because we live in the city on a narrow one-way street with a 34' long driveway that narrows to ~4' as it goes back from the ~9' wide apron.  So up until now we had decided that renting was a better choice than paying to store an RV offsite that we only use a few times a year.

We know three people in 35 ft will be tight.  John and I are both aware of the issues of an older child needing personal space, though she's not your typical kid.  She's enthusiastic about hitting the road plus she wants and loves to be outside as much as possible.  We do expect to reconfigure the interior so that our daughter can have her own space - we're thinking that a very small room with a fold down bunk and desk/drawers for her with a small bedroom for ourselves would work.  We expect to give up a dedicated dinette, have a smaller living room, and have a very small (wet?) bathroom in order to arrange space for her.

Space / Utilities:
We want to insulate as much as possible for bays and the interior of the coach.  We know that will be compromise between headroom and insulation.  We hope to get at least 100G fresh and 100G gray and plan to go for a composting toilet.  We're planning for solar as well - we already have a mobile solar setup for camping, though we plan to hard install a bigger system with a lithium battery bank in the coach's interior once the roof situation is stable (raised).  Ideally we'd like a split AC in a bay rather than a roof top unit, but that's a later consideration.  As for overall height, we're willing to go to the legal limit, though obviously shorter is easier in many respects.  And, yes, John has already horrified us all with videos from 11foot8.com.

Costs:
We know that a bus, like a house and a boat, will take money and lots of maintenance.  We're aware that buses have constraints on parts, shops that can handle their size, etc.  We still think buses are better, safer, and more well-built than any but the most expensive RVs we've seen.  We can't afford a million dollar rig so we'll compromise to older and built for a million miles.  We are both mechanically inclined fix-it-ourselves types, though not experienced in buses.  I, with help, did most of the modifications, including a supercharger reduction pulley, on my MINI.

I do think, that at least for now, we'll stay out of the retarder vs engine brake debate! 

So far MCI-5s are high on our list as well as Eagle 15s and older Prevosts (if we could find either)...  We'll have to look for the MCI Fs...  hadn't heard about that option - thanks!

Deb

[Scott & Heather]

Deb, do let us know your final choice. I'm feeling like it may be so hard to find what you're looking for that you might enjoy a fifth wheel or prebuilt RV better?

[luvrbus]

You are not driving a Mini so expect clutch problems on a bus and it's a 4 grand pop on the road to replace 1 fwiw.The 35 ft MCI,Eagle or the Prevost is going to have a drop box the autos are a lot easier on the drop box than the standard transmissions drop boxes and parts for 1 are getting out of sight in price for used parts

[ArtGill]

It is one thing to drive a car or a truck with the stick in the top of the transmission and other to shift when the linkage is 25 to 35 ft long.  So many more possible failure and/or adjustment points.

If you happen to come across an Eagle Model 20 that was built for New Jersey transit, they were built with coden steel which doesn't support rust.  It could be shorten and roof raised.

Art