Newbies - Narrowing down our bus search

[Escape Velocity]

Hello!

We're Deb & John and we're new to the bus world.  We've been reading the forums, magazine, and following various bus blogs for over a year.  You've probably heard this story before...  we're selling everything and buying a bus so we, with our 13 yo daughter, can go fulltime and see the country.

We've been RVing for 8 years, though we've always rented.  So we're in the bus search phase and looking for facts -- and opinions are gratefully appreciated too.  We've decided on a couple of key factors for our needs:

A. Bus conversion - 35' max (and we want every inch of that!)
B. No slides
C. Manual transmission, diesel engine
D. Interior height bare minimum 6'4", an inch or two higher would be better (John's 75 3/4" tall in normal sneakers)
E. Intercity style bus with bays underneath for utilities

Here's where our questions come in...

1. We like the GMCs, especially the 4107 and 4108, though it seems like they aren't tall enough on the interior and roof raises aren't common (or perhaps are ill advised by many).  We have visited a 4106 and contacted a bunch of other GMs...  all the GMCs we've heard from have low ceilings.  Are there 35 ft GMs that have taller interiors?

2. We've heard that Prevost and Newell are taller inside, but can't find any ads for 35 ft models to even ask about their interior height.  Also, we can't find much data about the amount of underneath bay storage they have.

3. MCI-5s look like a good option with roof raises being more common, but I can't figure out how to tell by looking if the roof has been raised.  Is there a way?

4. Eagle 15s are supposed to have a 35 ft version, but I've yet to find one.  How common are 35 ft versions?  Anyone know what type of interior height they have?

4. Are there other buses out there that we should be considering given our parameters?

Thank you!

Deb & John
V_e = 55 MPH

[buswarrior]

Everything is a compromise...

How much standing and walking do you really do inside the coach? We taller types already are wired to duck and slouch, we've been hitting our heads since our teen years, we're used to it now...

Everything else in your wish list is compatible, common and lots of choice available, if you forget the interior height.

As you noted, roof raise on GM is rare and tricky.
Stock bus, you have to go to MCI 102C3 and newer for interior height, and they are all 40 or 45 foot long.

Go for a MC5 or a 4107/4108 for the bigger bays, keep stock floor and ceiling, no shoes in the house, duck under the AC shroud....?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

[Escape Velocity]

Thanks for your thoughts Buswarrior!  We're weighing all factors...  compromising where we can, especially as we're planning to stuff 3 people (and several cats) in 35 ft fulltime!

John can't stand up straight in a GMC even flat footed with no AC shroud.  As for how much standing does one really do...  if we weren't going to be fulltime, he'd likely be more willing to compromise going into the search process.  However given we will be fulltime, he'd really like to be able to stand up with shoes on (he's not a barefoot or even flip-flop kind of guy).

We're hoping to avoid doing a roof raise...  hoping to find one that works stock or is already modified.

Cheers!

Deb
V_e = 55 MPF

[Melbo]

The 35 foot MCI's have a drop box.  As noted everything is a compromise.  I say go for a 40 foot MCI.  They are cheap and plentiful.  Find something with the power plant you want because the change out is expensive and buying it done is cheap.  The T drive is the easiest to work on or get worked on. 

I know you only wanted 35 feet but that not only limits the head room but the engine transmission configuration.

Remember this is just an opinion and it worth everything you paid for it.

HTH

Melbo

[5B Steve]

  I sent you a PM.

  5B Steve.......

[Scott & Heather]

I highly respect buswarrior so take this only as my opinion not as an affront to him. I'm in the raise the roof camp. We did it and it was well worth it. Without any shadow of a doubt. You will be hard pressed to find a 35 foot coach with a high roof. They exist but are much rarer. If he wants a manual trans because he thinks they are more reliable, please have him consider the amazing bullet proof reliability of an Allison 740 auto trans.


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[lvmci]

hi Deb & Jon, there is a newer 35' 102 wide, higher  roof, called the MCI F I  think, not many of them on the used market, have seen a few made into a conversion, a little too expensive  and don't  have the best mechanical reputation,  when we decided to full time after having our 5A for six years,  we looked for a 102C3 as full times best fit, and I've been very happy with the result,  come to a few bus getogethers, walk thru a few and ask questions, ask Dave5CS and lost again about life in a MCI5, as for a roof raise, there are shops that are very experienced doing that,  like B&B in LV and several of our group have done it themselves,  tom, lvmci...PS, if Dave is too cranky, just get him on another day, it will pass!

[luvrbus]

Buy yourself a good PT Blue Bird conversion( not the school bus) and be done with it they are as dependable as anything on the market,the 35 ft Prevosts are from the late 70's not many of those around

[HB of CJ]

Welcome aboard.  Grab a big hot cup of coffee or tea, draw up a comfy chair and have fun and giggles discussing, (and cussing) you soon-to-be-new-to-you Bus Conversion.

I have an "outside the box" suggestion.  Many others will not agree which is good.  Consider about a 1985 or so 35 foot long by 8 feet wide by about 10.5 feet high ...

Crown Supercoach ex school bus.  Definitely a West Coast phenomenon. Mills are either an older Detroit Diesel 671T or the better Big Cam-NTC Cummins engines.

These most likely if still factory stock will have mechanical engines.  No computers at all.  Parts and support of these older diesels may still be doable.  No other computers.

Either the 740 or type Allison or Fuller T905M or the fun cool close ratio RTO910 easy to shift 10 Speed Roadranger manual tranny.  Powerful TRW power assist steering.

Huge 16"x10" or bigger drum air brakes.  Leaf spring suspension.  Rare rear air bags.  Aluminum body.  High strength steel frame.  A 4130 roll bar every 17 inches.

Superior road handling.  Mine went 85.  Superior brakes. 35 footers have a tight turning circle.  Cheap Cummins upgrades to 475 hp.  Radiators good for 400+ hp.

With research and connections, still available used from California and West Coast. Expect to pay less than $8000 used.  Lots of good life left.  Can be rebuilt easy.

Uses off the shelf HD truck parts.  Engine is in the middle.  HD highway truck drive train and clutch. Fun to drive.  Superior road manners to the 4106. Good project bus.

Now the downside.  Only 75" headroom.  Roof raising kinda easy but doable.  Large fuel and holding capacities difficult.  Not much under floor space.  Few big trunks.

Might be difficult getting non commercial RV tags.  Depends.  Easy to get speeding tickets.  They look like "Twinkies".  Not for everybody.  Only hot rodders need apply.

You will want between about a 1978 to a 1988.  Flat front windshields. White roof.  Turbo Big Cam or NTC Cummins preferable.  Jakes available.  Much fun indeed!

Driving a hot Crown will change your thinking about a Bus Conversion.  Again, not for everybody.  But ... perfect for some.  Mechanical and driving skills required.

Fuel mileage?  My 1974 40 foot 10 wheeler Crown at 24,500# from Hesperia CA to Cave Junction OR averaged 10.3 mpg at 1500 rpm at 60 mph in 10th gear.

Cummins, Cummins, Cummins. 

[Geom]

We have a 4107 and absolutely love it.

We are also fulltime. And we're new to the whole bus thing. We've been fulltime for almost two years now. Your list pretty much matched ours, when we were looking, with a couple of exceptions.

We initially wanted a manual transmission as well, but were eventually talked out of it; after reading up on how they work (along with others opinions of them). We've both been driving manuals since we were kids, and expected the same in the bus. A manual transmission is a totally different animal in a bus. It's a non synchronized transmission, so shifting is part art, part science, and part magic. I'm certain others will have different opinions on the matter to be sure (especially those who can shift them in their sleep), but I'd be sure to double check the manual tranny requirement.

We also wanted a max of 35' and for us it's worked out really well. It's allowed us to get into some pretty tight spots quite comfortably (as where I'd probably not have taken a 40' or 45' bus anywhere near).

We had zero desire for slides, for multiple reasons, and we really have not missed them. I'm sure it'd be nice to expand the salon or bedroom a couple of feet, but as buswarrior said, it's all about compromises and getting slides in a bus (especially a converted seated coach) is quite a... chore.

Having the luggage storage bays has been immensely helpful in lugging around all the shtuff you need for full-timing. We have two huge bays. The front bay is (was) entirely open. About 1/4 of it is being taken up by misc electrical bits (inverter, generator start battery, etc) and other oddly shaped things. For the remainder, we installed a drawer on wheels to allow sliding it out from either side. We have it full of bins and have it kinda sorta organized.
The back bay has our black and gray tanks and the remaining 1/4 of it also has a similar drawer setup. That ended up being the "garage" area and has all my tools and other misc junk

As for the height.... I'm not sure you'll be able to come up with that interior height on any (stock) bus. We've looked at a few and they're all fairly squat. The floor in ours was lowered about 4-5" and standing in the center (highest point of rounded roof) we have around 6' 4" of clearance. 4-5" might not seem like much, but it does change the precieved space in the room.
But honestly, we've also been in a stock 4106 and it was quite comfortable in there. Of course neither of us is 6' 4"  

Whatever bus you go with, make sure you've looked at several before making a decision. Each conversion is just a little bit different and might greatly affect your decision making process.

If you're mechanically inclined you might be able to evaluate a bus on your own, but if you can make good friends with a knowledgable bus nut (or an actual mechanic) and get them to check out your final contenders, that would certainly be preferred. There are A LOT of bits and pieces on these old buses. They've been in service (to some degree) for 50 years and there's always something. Figuring out the integrity of the high points -does it start, does it move, does it steer, and most importantly does it stop are crucial.
We're just now running through a whoooole laundry list of stuff on our bus to get stuff taken care of. But expect a perennial project. As stated, there's always something  


This forum is a great place to gather intel, and seek advice on all sorts of items. Many a folks on here have certainty talked me off of the ledge a time or two

But overall welcome to the bus community. Once you're bitten by the bus bug, it's very difficult to cure  

[eagle19952]

have you given any thought to what you can tow behind a GM.. and how much power is needed to do that ? vs. what motor you will own ?

[Escape Velocity]

Thank you all so much!  We love hearing all the facts and opinions...  much new to think about.

I thought I'd explain a bit of our reasoning, briefly, and our expected use...

A. Bus conversion - 35' max
     We want to be able to stay in as many as possible major (and minor) state and national parks.  We're aware of length restrictions and want to avoid them as we can.  Also, we will be pulling our MINI Cooper S as a toad and the overall length will restrict easy access to many places if we go bigger.

B. No slides
    We don't want the mechanical difficulties.

C. Manual transmission, diesel engine
     Prime factor here is fuel economy.  We don't hold hope diesel will stay this low long.  We're both mechanically inclined, life long stick drivers, and John's already familiar with double clutching.  I'm fairly certain I'll manage as I can double clutch my beloved Getrag 6-speed MINI when rallying.

D. Interior height bare minimum 6'4", an inch or two higher would be better (John's 75 3/4" tall in normal sneakers)
      We hope for a interior height that's usable from the start either stock or already raised.  Though, we've accepted we might have to get a good bus and raise the roof.  John's not willing to compromise on this one yet as he likes to cook and I don't want him to have any excuse for not helping clean up. 

E. Intercity style bus with bays underneath for utilities
     We considered intracity buses and skoolies, but decided against them.  As a family of three, we desperately need the storage space.  We expect to be boondocking extensively and need the room for utilities as well as gear.  We like the outdoors and are not pole to pole types.  Also, given John's work (locum tenens hospitalist), we will need to be able to heat the bays as we won't always be able to follow mild weather.
     We also want to have good insurance and skoolies, we've learned, can be a good bit harder to insure.

We understand than any bus will be a project...  a neverending one at that.  We currently have an 1852 house, different medium, similar problem set.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts...  we're making lots of notes.  John's intrigued by the floor lowering...  that's one we haven't heard of, though I'm sure that has to cut into the bay storage...  as many said, compromises.

Deb
V_e = 55 MPH 

[Scott & Heather]

Cummins cummins cummins. HB is my old coot internet buddy and i don't disagree with him on any subject except
The spelling of cummins lol! What do I know. I'm a young coot


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[luvrbus]

A auto would be your best clutches are a weak point on old buses because of the gearing they don't last long ,are getting very expensive and hard to find in a hurry.GM's are not bad to change but a MCI 5 is a pain you need to remove the engine to do one.People buy what ever they choose but I would go with a T drive with a right handed engine 40 ft long the, GM power steering sucks too    

[DoubleEagle]

Your desire to have a manual transmission might be a problem if you do not have bus or truck driving experience. A bus from any of the major makes usually had a Spicer 4 or 5 speed that requires patience and double-clutching skills. My first bus was a Model 5 Silvereagle with the Spicer 4 speed. It had air-assist on the clutch pedal, but it was still heavy to work. The linkage goes through many bushings the full length of the coach that benefit from lubrication.
Your trips will be more enjoyable with an automatic. I still remember stop and go traffic messes, starting on hills, left leg turning to rubber, backing down hills that were to steep for the high gearing - shoot for an automatic!