24V Inverter

Dave5Cs · February 22, 2015, 08:31:31 PM

Most now have that. The magnum senses any incoming power and if needed to kick it higher it will even join in to boost power or cut itself out when not needed. If you don't want it to come on at all just turn it off or you can set it to come on at a certain time and off at a certain time if needed. You can do the charger the same way or both and let the inverter monitor the whole system.
It has a fault light also if on you just turn the knob to Tech and checkout what it was that put it in fault mode which is generally just a low battery which would inform you that a battery might have a bad cell. You can erase the fault code after the problem is fixed.

eagle19952 · February 22, 2015, 10:19:38 PM

it is my understanding that with any inverter, as the battery bank begins to lose capacity, ie voltage, the quality of the wave deforms. this would seem to indicate that at a certain point a pure sine wave unit is no longer making a complete clean 60 hz cycle. if a modified (high quality unit) produces 58hz at optimum(which good ones do) it is not that far off of a pure sw. once the batts diminish the wave quality does too.

one can learn a bunch here

http://www.gumpydog.com/Bus/MC9_WIP/Electrical/Inverter/SW4024.pdf

Dave5Cs · February 23, 2015, 06:33:20 AM

The one you referred to is not the Hybrid. Any battery will diminish after time not the inverter, other than the wave because of the batteries dieng eventually. That would be around 5 to 7 years and that is normal. Batteries still have to be checked even if they are sealed have to take a reading on them every so often and do a load test just to be sure they are holding a charge. The remote will give you this information depending on which unit you have.
Check out Chris and Cheri's, http://www.technomadia.com/lithium/
website about their tests with the Lithium batteries. Even those diminish with time and they can be brought down to "0" and then charge them back up again whereas lead Acid Batteries you only bring down to 80 % (use 20%) before they should be recharged to keep optimum usability. Some say 50% but that will only give them shorter life.
So all batteries have a usable life and only so many recharges and then that's it. They can be rebuilt but some get really abused and not maintained so even that is not worth the time to do.
So if your batteries are taken care of by any inverter/ charger ( preferably a 3 stage smart charger) then when they won't keep a good charge its time replace the batteries. Pure Sine Wave or Modified. HTH

Low Class · February 23, 2015, 07:08:59 AM

"1) In your opinion, what's the best inverter like this made and available in the market, price no object?"

my vote would be for Exeltech. I think if you take them a bus load of money, they will custom build anything you want.

Tikvah · February 23, 2015, 07:13:13 AM

I think, at least for short term solution, the idea of a couple small inverters might be a nice idea. Charging can be done with a nice 24V smart charger when on pole or generator power. The Modified Wave unit can continue to provide power to the fridge and a few misc items. Then I could have a small Pure Wave unit for my computer, and another small pure wave unit for my AC (remember my AC pulls much less than most of you).
My gray matter is churning a bit.....

TomC · February 23, 2015, 07:31:51 AM

The way your inverter works is directly related to the way you have the wiring setup. Before load sharing (I have a MSW 2512 Trace inverter), you had to manage loads. I have two circuit breaker boxes. One for non inverter items (3-roof top A/C's, one water heater, freezer, refer, generator blower, generator radiator fan) and one for inverter driven items (all plugs, microwave, toaster oven, bathroom wall heater, one water heater). When plugged into a 15amp plug, I can turn off the feed to the inverter and run all inverter loads on batteries. Then when were done with breakfast and using the hair dryer, turn on the feed to the inverter to recharge the batteries. Usually, though, I just kick on the generator to power all loads.
My system has been 100% reliable-the only thing-you have to do the switching manually. I do have a main box that I can turn on and off the land line-no unplugging, etc.
Now with load sharing, the same thing can be accomplished without having to do any switching. The Magnum 4000 with load sharing would be my choice for a 24v inverter. I will be using the Magnum 2800 with load sharing on my truck since everything is 12v. Good Luck, TomC

NewbeeMC9 · February 23, 2015, 07:46:42 AM

Or spend the money for a DC fridge

( Google it). And/or DC HVAC etc. or other large loads. Then you don't have to as much about an inverter. Then just plug a good charger in the powerpole when you need it.

You can even work it out so that your computer is fed DC if you wanted.

There is certain efficiency losses in the DC/AC conversion.

The old Trace also has Grid Tie capability if you want to sell power back to the power company.

Do it your way safely

luvrbus · February 23, 2015, 07:49:28 AM

Magnum would be my choice all true sine inverters have a constant draw some more than others,if you are plugged or driving it's not a big deal.
Every tech I speak with at Magnum seems to be a old Trace employee they should know their stuff on load sharing IMO.The old Traces were more true sine than most of the China made so called pure or true sine sold today.

I never had anything that my 2012 stacked Traces would not run after 20 years Matt told me 1 gave up so he just took one of the stacked out of the loop and still has 2000w of inverter

eagle19952 · February 23, 2015, 07:50:44 AM

As usual I have made my point clear as mud, corrrect me again, IF your batteries are at 14.2 or 13.8 the PS Wave or MS Wave will make it's cleanest wave (HZ), PS making 60 hz.
NOW when the batteries are no longer at 13.8 and become say..11.8 or 12.2...what quality of wave is your output ? It is not 60 hz ... or is it ?
Trace says it is not ... if i read it correctly.
your battery state of charge SOC, depletes on a daily basis in a coach with say a 4 8d bank..... now a 12 8d bank may not, but who has that.

I am all in favor of the point of use PS wave inverters. just may not be practical for 1500 watt loads...

PS I read the Lithium test as a fail. as in lithium $$'s for watts are not the best way to spend your money.

Quote from: Dave5Cs on February 23, 2015, 06:33:20 AM
The one you referred to is not the Hybrid. Any battery will diminish after time not the inverter, other than the wave because of the batteries dieng eventually. That would be around 5 to 7 years and that is normal. Batteries still have to be checked even if they are sealed have to take a reading on them every so often and do a load test just to be sure they are holding a charge. The remote will give you this information depending on which unit you have.
Check out Chris and Cheri's, http://www.technomadia.com/lithium/
website about their tests with the Lithium batteries. Even those diminish with time and they can be brought down to "0" and then charge them back up again whereas lead Acid Batteries you only bring down to 80 % (use 20%) before they should be recharged to keep optimum usability. Some say 50% but that will only give them shorter life.
So all batteries have a usable life and only so many recharges and then that's it. They can be rebuilt but some get really abused and not maintained so even that is not worth the time to do.
So if your batteries are taken care of by any inverter/ charger ( preferably a 3 stage smart charger) then when they won't keep a good charge its time replace the batteries. Pure Sine Wave or Modified. HTH

luvrbus · February 23, 2015, 08:03:11 AM

Long story with short version in the inverter market you get what you pay for

eagle19952 · February 23, 2015, 08:11:08 AM

Quote from: luvrbus on February 23, 2015, 08:03:11 AM
Long story with short version in the inverter market you get what you pay for

i get that...

bevans6 · February 23, 2015, 08:19:49 AM

The thread that won't die...

I found this, posted by an ex-design engineer at Trace.;

"There are actually 3 inverters in series for the SW4048. Big, medium and small. The large one has
a waveform like a modified square wave inverter. The medium and small ones have higher frequency
waveforms to make up a close-to sine wave stepped waveform."

That tells me that this decades old design is radically different than the current micro-processor controlled high frequency pure sine wave inverters. They use pulse width modulation of MosFET output stages to create the output wave form. That technique will result in very tight control of both wave form and frequency. It does distort a little at high power, mostly at the top of the wave form where the pulse width is quite wide, relatively speaking.

Brian

eagle19952 · February 23, 2015, 08:48:39 AM

it tells me that
a. it's affordable, and
b. adequately capable for most uses...

Quote from: bevans6 on February 23, 2015, 08:19:49 AM
The thread that won't die...

I found this, posted by an ex-design engineer at Trace.;

"There are actually 3 inverters in series for the SW4048. Big, medium and small. The large one has
a waveform like a modified square wave inverter. The medium and small ones have higher frequency
waveforms to make up a close-to sine wave stepped waveform."

That tells me that this decades old design is radically different than the current micro-processor controlled high frequency pure sine wave inverters. They use pulse width modulation of MosFET output stages to create the output wave form. That technique will result in very tight control of both wave form and frequency. It does distort a little at high power, mostly at the top of the wave form where the pulse width is quite wide, relatively speaking.

Brian

luvrbus · February 23, 2015, 09:07:45 AM

I remember when BlueBird started this inverter craze they even had a auto start long before it was popular or heard of

bobofthenorth · February 23, 2015, 10:54:17 AM

Quote from: eagle19952 on February 23, 2015, 07:50:44 AM
As usual I have made my point clear as mud, corrrect me again, IF your batteries are at 14.2 or 13.8 the PS Wave or MS Wave will make it's cleanest wave (HZ), PS making 60 hz.
NOW when the batteries are no longer at 13.8 and become say..11.8 or 12.2...what quality of wave is your output ? It is not 60 hz ... or is it ?

You are confusing frequency (Hz) and waveform. A generator will always make a "pure" waveform but the frequency can very easily be off if the governor isn't adjusted correctly or even by design - some of them are set up to be slightly high frequency at low load so that they deliver a true 60 Hz at full load.

My understanding of how inverters work is about 10 thou deep but what I understand is that even the purest of the pure sine wave models will still show discreet steps in the waveform at high enough resolution. IOW, if you look hard enough even a supposedly pure sine inverter waveform will to some extent still be a modified square wave - that's just a function of digital circuitry. Some of what Bryan has been posting is causing me to question that understanding as regards current inverter technology but like I said, my inverter knowledge is paper thin.