Newbie looking for advice

[kevinksu2005]

Hi guys, I am a newbie as you might have gathered. I have been thinking about and researching the exciting and complex world of bus conversions for awhile now. For those of you that have posted pictures and advice I thank you. While I may have convinced the wife, AKA The Boss, that we should not buy an RV, but build a bus conversion, I have not yet convinced her or myself what the best approach is. Ultimately I'd love to have a Coach, obviously. However, the cost and inexperience may not allow it.

I thought for my first conversion I'd try something smaller and less expensive. What is cheap and readily accessible? School Buses. Now, I know that may make many of you turn up your nose a little, but remember I am new. Has anyone done or seen a nice looking skoolie. I have been searching and haven't really found any. What do i mean by "nice"? I mean doesn't look like a tailgating/hunting shack/hippie mobile/school bus. I mean one that looks like a smaller version of a nice coach or a camper. I would love some advice from the experts. Am I wasting time & money on a skoolie? What should I be looking for? I estimated my costs for a conversion, bus and any mechanical work not included (hopefully won't need any = naive).
     Skoolie Conversion with mostly house furniture and a small gas generator $8,225. Bus cost $4,000.
     Coach Conversion with decent furniture (hoping for some "junked" RV parts) and a diesel generator $21,550. Bus cost $15,000.

I am not so new as to not provide you with some pertinent information. Uses:  Tailgating (300mile round trip) 8 times per year with 6 adults total. Camping in campgrounds with limited hookups 2 times a year (400 mile round trip). Camping in remote areas 1 time per year (1800 mile round trip). Bowl game tailgating one time per year (1800 mile round trip) with hookups. I am 26, married, no kids yet, but getting closer. I will have no problems doing the carpentry, cabinetry, electrical, plumbing, and HVAC. Lots of construction experience and limited RV restoration experience. The only part of the construction that makes me nervous is the exterior and the bus mechanics. My shade-tree mechanic skills are limited to trucks and small engines.

Please give me some feedback as to bus suggestions, if you know of a "nice" skoolie, and a honest assensment of my estimates. Would suggest the skoolie or temporary route or the coach or lifetime route. I have attached a sample of one of my bus designs. This one is for a skoolie and I have only included the floor plan. (Drawn in AutoCAD Lite 2002)

Thank you,

Kevin

[kevinksu2005]

Forgot to mention the other limiting criteria. I am 6'-5" tall.

[H3Jim]

While I did put a bit more $ into mine than you have indicated, I figured that if I was going to spend all my time making this thing, and spending more on the conversion part than the bus itself, that I wanted to start with the best shell I could afford.  I have seen that advice many times since, and I offer that to you here.  Do not sell yourself short and "start off small"  there is not such thing.  You will be dealing with all the same systems whether or not yo go schoolie or transit or hiway coach.

Good time to learn about the big diesels - they are awesome.

[RJ]

Kevin -

Somebody else on this board is asking exactly the same questions you are.  Here's the link:

http://www.busconversions.com/bbs/index.php?topic=2694.0

I spent 25+ years in the bus industry, from putting myself thru college driving skoolies, and on into the charter and transit sides of the madness.  So take my comments for whatever you think they're worth:

The reason you've never seen a decent looking skoolie is because there aren't any!  Regardless of how fancy you fix it up with Alcoa rims and a pretty paint job, it's still recognizeable as a skoolie.  Especially if it's a dog-nose.  Transit styles, particularly the Crowns, are a different ballgame, there is some hope for them.

How long has it been since you've ridden in a skoolie?  Take a trip over to your local school district transportation office, and tell the supervisor what you're thinking about doing, and ask him/her to take a ride in one.  Then don't sit up front - go ride in the back - behind   the rear axle.  After that 30 minute ride, see if you think your friends would put up with that for 300 miles, let alone the 1800 mile one.

Since you're 6'5", don't forget to stand up in the skoolie too.  Remember, they're built for kids. . .

IMHO - yes, you'd be wasting your $$ on a skoolie.

Your cost estimates are way too low.  For example:  Six tires alone for a bus, redardless of the shell type, will set you back about $2K, and chances are real good that when you buy a coach, you won't be getting fresh rubber - you'll get the trash tires the district doesn't want to pay to dispose of.  And that doesn't include new wheels or wheel studs/nuts, in case those are needed.

Maybe what you should seriously consider is picking up a coach that's already converted to see if this is really the thing for you.  There are plenty of older conversions available for $15 - $35K for a GMC or around $50 -$75K for an early MCI or Prevost.  Use your construction skills to upgrade the house systems to your liking, or just use it as is.

Before you take the plunge, spend some $$ on some books related to this.  Altho somewhat dated, "Beginner's Guide to Converted Coaches", by Larry Plachno, is a good place to start.  Available from Amazon, sometimes on eBay, or directly from the publisher: www.busmag.com.  Also, right here on this site, there are links to some other literature that would be a welcome addition to the busnut library.

It's very easy to buy a bus. . . but it's a LOT harder to sell a mistake!

FWIW & HTH. . .

[NewbeeMC9]

Do a search, this was discussed recently on the board.


you can find one usable and already converted to learn on,(check the mag)  there's plenty to be done to keep you busy while you learn about stuff. and it's usable in the process and you'll miss fewer tailgate parties.  Plus you can drive it to where you plan to drink and just stay in it.  It wouldpay for itself in DUI prevention.

Thats what i did, got a pretty good deal  (less than the parts that went into it) and I got a loan(since it was converted) so the initial cash outlay wasn't big.  Interest taxed as a second home.  If i tried to take the time to convert one myself, my kids would be gone(ages 8  & 11) and I might be able to take grandkids in it,  (I'm sorta slow).  I still have plenty to do to make it my way but it is usable now.

No kids!, go for a 35' footer with only 2 axles, don't have to worry about lane restrictions and can use HOV lane, most campground it'll fit in and some curvey mountain roads with restrictions.   theres some in mag this month.  MC-5, 4104 or 4106 to name a few.  After the youngins are gone I'll  probably drop down to a 410...something.

GET THE MAG!!  It'll be a monthly joyous occasion  You'll see!!  and an entertaining learning process.

Biggest problem with skoolies is getting the gearing for highway,  you may be lucky and get one that is, throw in a couple $Grand if not unless your creative or not in a hurry.  Check http://www.skoolie.net/
My neighbor drove his skoolie to sturgis from SC at 45-50 mph  probably got less than 5 mpg and engine full revving.

Get the mag

You'd be quite comfy on those long trips with the air suspension as opposed to the skoolie ride.

you can find the blunt nose one;s too and I'll let others comment on those

the bays on intercitybuses make good storage /carrying for margarita machines and the beerpong table

get the mag, do it your way, keep us posted, have fun

[Dreamscape]

Just do lots of research before opening your wallet.

Get what you want and what you can afford.

Even take months or years. It is hard selling once purchased, look at eBay, I have seen several coaches several times for differant reasons.

Like others on this board have said, invest in the books, magazines and gleam everything you can from the various boards. The advice they give is from experence.

Happy Trails,

Paul

Dreamscape

[kevinksu2005]

Thanks for the advice, I have been following Larry's thread as well, just thought I'd throw my name out there and see who'd respond. I have been doing a lot of research, which is why I do not have a bus yet. I know better tha to buy one quickly. I figure I'd research for a few years first. Magazine and the books are helpful I agree. Before I buy anything, I am wanting to make it to some rallies. I cannot go in Janurary, already checked. I have to work that weekend and cannot get off. I have looked at a few conversions, but always want to look at more. (live in Wichita, KS, but working in Fort Collins, CO until May)

I spend about 30 hours a week researching busses and working on my designs. Like I said, I live in WIchita, but am working out of town. Therefore I am alone, my wife is back in Wichita and I have very little to do after work. I have a few hundred sites that I have visited and bookmarked. These include bus sales, parts, converters, forumns, RV supplies, Type A RV manufacuters (ideas), and my most favorite individuals like yourselves that have posted sites showing their bus conversion process. I have about a dozen completely different floor plans complete with elevations that I have drawn out myself.

As far as my estimate being way too low. I don't understand why. I did NOT include any costs to make the bus road ready. Only the house systems are included. This is because the road ready costs are unknown until the particular bus is selected. While my costs may be low, I do not beleive they are too far off for the design I had in mind. All internal compents were estimated based on actual costs I have found for the various components. I plan to do the bus as such:  get what I need now and add better furniture and appliances later on...after the intial cost is paid off. I figure it'll be like my house is - always in the remodeling/upgrading phase. All of the "high" quality stuff that I will put in will be out-of-site items.

Let me clarify a little. I am not looking for a drunken tailgating vehicle. If I was, I'd have a skoolie already. It is just that we currently camp when we are tailgating and I would continue this practice with a bus. The camper doesn't actually go to the games with us currently, it goes to a campground nearby. While i'm not opposed to drinking at the game, I am not your typical recent grad. I go for the love of the game itself.

I am about 75% sure I will not buy a skoolie. For all of the reasons you guys listed and some of my own. I was hoping someone could convince me that it is the right way to go because of the cost and ease of conversion. I didn't think it would happen, but thought this may be my last try.  As I expected, no one would suggest a skoolie after having a "real" bus.

[TomC]

Since you're 6'5" (I'm just 2 inches less), either the MCI 102C3 or a recent transit both should have 6'10" headroom.  My transit has 6'10" and even with the A/C hanging down, you could still walk standing straight up.  There is a GM transit for sale in the classifieds in this site for $4,000.00.  Transits are the strongest built buses because of their punishing start and stopping hundreds of times per week.  The one thing I did with mine was to keep both doors.  The front is the one usually used with my bathroom built inside of the rear door so you can use the bathroom without tramsing through the rest of the bus-advantage to tailgaters, scuba divers, beach goers, etc.  Plus they are 2 steps lower.  Good LUck, TomC

[Buffalo SpaceShip]

Kevin, for the time you're investing in researching, scheming, and dreaming about conversions on the Net, you could be out looking at ones for sale and hopefully test-driving some. It'd be better if you were still in KS for being centrally-located, but while you're temping in Ft. Collins, you're about an hour away from me in Longmont, so by all means come on down sometime and check mine out. It's a fully-converted 35' GMC highway bus, and would be typical of a mid-priced converted coach. We bought it in March of this year and have put about 10k miles on her since. I can bend your ear about all I've learned about bussing in the last four years (and four busses).

If you get back to KS before May, take some trips with The Boss and check out entertainer coaches on the lots around Nashville (like busforsale.com), or I-44 Bus Sales in SW MO. School busses are easier to find, but do try to get some seat time in one before you spend too much time scheming to convert one.

I know it sounds silly, but there's more important things to choosing a bus than being able to stand fully upright in one... you just don't spend a ton of time vertical when on the road or camping. You can find converted highway coaches starting at about $10k, something like a GMC 4104 or 4106. A converted Fishbowl or Flx transit could be had for even less (and has more headroom). You could buy one and use it for the season to see if you like the lifestyle of bussing. You could probably find a partially-converted skoolie for almost nothing and do the same thing. If you find it doesn't suit you, sell the thing. If you like the lifestyle, upgrade your bus or convert one from scratch.

Just keep The Boss away from the sticks and staples rigs that are all shiny and polished (and "conventional")... esp. the ones with slideouts. We spent several days this summer in her brother rented Class C with slides... and I practically had to drag her back to the old bus every night!

Now, I'm serious about coming to see my bus... I'll do what I can to cure that Yellow Bus Fever of yours. 
Brian B.

[TomC]

On my transit, I have spent (over the 12 years I've had it) about $90,000 total on it.  Except for the engine overhaul (which should be figured in on most any bus-even if it had a fresh engine-stuff happens), I've spent another $10,000 on it with the combination of regearing, having it turbo'ed, etc.  My point is to buy the bus with the engine and transmission set with it already performing to your liking since the engine and transmission are the two biggest expenses you can start playing with.  A 2 stroke Detroit with a fresh overhaul should get you 300,000 miles of engine life, with 500,000 miles not uncommon (my 8V-92TA on my first truck went 500,000 miles before the first overhaul).  Course, Detroit Series 60, big Cummins N14, ISX, Caterpiller 3406 are all one million mile engines.  Any of the middle sized engines like the Caterpillar 3126/C7, Cummins ISC/8.3/ISL, Mercedes Benz 900 engine, International DT466, should easily get 300,000 miles also from a fresh engine. 

Only one transmission to avoid and that's the Allison AT545 4 speed since it does not have a torque converter lockup clutch (too much heat build up at freeway speeds-worked well in city).  Any of the other Allison autos are fine.  Would stay away from the MT45 cast iron case 6 speed since parts are not made anymore.  If you have a question on drive train, just ask-lots of experts here on older engines/transmissions.  Good Luck, TomC

[kevinksu2005]

TomC,

I'd love to see more pics of your bus. Only found one in the photo area.
I like your idea of the transit and I have thought about that. The only thing that worried me was the highway speeds. It sounds like you made it work. As far as the engine and tranny goes, I really appreceiate your list of stay away from and good choices. I really love the idea of the bathroom having the second door. That was one of my biggest drawbacks with designing a transit. What to do with the other door. Do you have any pics/drawings of the bathroom and how the door works into it? 300,000 miles would last me a long time.

Brian B,

Becareful what you offer. I may just take you up on it sometime. With the Holidays and me working 6-7 days a week, it might be better to wait until after the first of the year. I'd love to tour your bus and especially love to pick your brain. I have considered what you suggest. Buy one that is done and adjust it to fit my needs. I'd like to talk to you more about that and your experiances with it. My concern is how well the orginal conversions was done. Will I have to tear it all out anyway?
PLEASE do not let me be a bother to you. I hate asking favors of people. If there is a time after the first of the year that would work well for you, email me.

[Buffalo SpaceShip]

Hey Kevin:

Actually, January is MUCH better for me, too. This time of year is just NUTS. I'll PM you my info and we can work out a time that suits us both. Actually, I welcome the opportunity to talk about busses with a real live person, since busnuts are few and far between out here. Maybe by then we can even get the bus out and go for a spin. I have to fix an oil seal in my rear axle and clean up the brake drum in the meantime.

I also owned a transit conversion briefly (a partially-converted Fishbowl/NewLook GMC), so I know a thing or three about those. A transit may well be your best choice because of your height, esp. if you don't need the gobs of bay space my family requires. I've never owned or driven a skoolie, but spent plenty of time in them as a schoolkid.

I've had decent luck with buying other people's conversions and making them suit our needs. We just don't have the 2-3 years right now to do one up from scratch. I've been remodeling our own homes for a dozen years and four different houses, so I find that level of problem-solving agreeable to me. Even if you convert a bus yourself, there's similar limitations of space, time, and budget. Not to mention, once you start using a coach regularly, you'll often re-think and want to re-design or adapt it to suit your lifestyle and the things you've learned along the way.

It's also much more cost-effective to let someone else "take the hit" on their time and $ spent on the conversion. It sounds a bit ruthless to say this on a BBS dedicated to bus conversions, but I've found it to be true from my experience.  However, my needs are somewhat different then most, I suspect: Our busses have been a "means to an end" to get my family safely through the thousands of miles of travelling we do every year, between vacations, family visits, and my self-employment pursuits. No one in my family really shares my love of busses... and that's fine. They just want to go places in an RV... and it's up to me to drive it and keep it maintained.

Take care, and please come see me and my Buff sometime in January,
Brian B.

[Al Bass]

Russ
Go easy on Skoolies, some of us don't have more money than brains. Some of us do it for the fun of it and not to impress opinionated people like you 

[kyle4501]

Pick a shell you like looking at. If you think it's ugly, it will be harder to stay focused & enthusiastic on the project. I looked at several used buses & decided I wanted to buy a classic that needed everything redone. I'm still trying to decide if that was a good idea.     But I do love the way mine looks!

The $$$ you invest in the shell can be the best or worst investment you make. If it works out great, then it was a good investment. If you end up hating or fighting it, . . .

Decide what you want in it & from it first, then pick a shell.

good luck
kyle4501

[Dallas]

Russ
Go easy on Skoolies, some of us don't have more money than brains. Some of us do it for the fun of it and not to impress opinionated people like you 

One of my first conversions was a 55 IH with a Black Diamond engine, fuly seated and doing everything it could to hit 60mph.

Nonetheless, I think it was my favorite. I had a frame, interior and hood.

With time, I put a 6V53 and a RTO9610 into it. I also did some afroengineering and put a Dana 60 front driveshaft in. It was connected through the transfercase I got from a derelict dumptruck in Montana.

Unfortunately, it was not an RTOO, so I was stuck at 67mph@ 2800rpm. Not bad, until you figure the old 53 series liked to run around 2400rpm. My mileage was near 5-6mph all the time.

My point is, just do what you feel comfortable with. You are not a professional convertor looking to make a profit, you are trying to find a solution that's a touch above the tent/popup/ class C or A and still be something you feel proud of.

would I do a schoolie again? Probably not. But not because of the enjoyability, more because I need more room.

As for the naysayers, start looking at the pusher type Thomases and Bluebirds. Even a Crown would be really cool for what you need. It would just need some updating to make it viable at many campgrounds.

By the way, When I find a campground that doesn't like me or my bus, I happily move on to the next one.

Good Luck!
IHTH
Dallas