Motor problem- Totally bummed.

[Chaz]

Hey Guys,
  I am having a state blacksmith meeting/demo at my studio this morning so I have to move my bus. I plugged in my new block heater last night and this morning I went out to start it and vroooom she hit right away!!! No ether!!! 

   BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! there was an intermittant LOUD sucking noise coming out of the motor- sounded something like high pressure air- and it wouldn't shut off. I flipped the blower flapper and the rpm's went down but put out some seriously black smoke- and KEPT RUNNING!!!!!! I was freaked. I couldn't get it to quit! Luckily after about 10 mins of trying, a fellow blacksmith showed up and helped me. He knew of another shut off that I was not familiar with. (you know, I'm still a rookie and not happy with myself for taking on something like this without knowing more about diesels.)

  So anyway, I just thought I would throw this out to you to see what you think that noise is. The blacksmith that helped me said he wasn't familiar with them all that much but thought the blower gasket may be out of it. It was fine the last time I ran it, and the only other thing I did was put in a block heater.

  Let me know what you think. I'm NOT a "happy camper" right now. I may go back to being a wannabe. I think I'm over my head.

  Thanx guys.
     Chaz 
                 (back to the meeting)

[Dallas]

Chaz,

If you have used the emergency shut down as a method of killing the engine instead of the normal shutdown procedure, there is a VERY good possibility that you've taken out the blower seals.

The reason it's called the "emergency shut down" is because that is EXACTLY what it's for, in case of a runaway condition. Not for use as a starting and stopping device.

I think that if you hear air blowing by the gasket, under pressure, between the engine block and the blower, you should be able to replace that for about $10 and an hour of work.

If it's the seals on the impeller shafts, (which is what it sounds like), you will need to remove the blower and take it to your local 2 stroke guy and have new seals put in. At the same time, have it checked out for wear and clearance.

If it kept running after the flapper was used, it probably had oil passing through, along with fuel, since the fuel rail was still in an open position.

Good luck, and let us know what you find.

IHTH

Dallas

[Chaz]

Thanx Dallas.
I have never used the e-shutdown to stop the engine before. I was just trying to shut it down using the flapper when it wouldn't stop this time. Didn't work. There was another lever by the throttle lever that did it. 
The noise (hissing or sucking, or hell, even sounded kinda like an electrical arc) occured immediately when it started.
Another guy here at the meeting said it could be iced fuel in an injecter. But was just a guess. I'm going to let it heat up till mid-day -supposed to get to be in the 40's- and try starting it again. He said if it was iced, it would be ok when it gets warm an then "dope the fuel". Any suggestions on brands of additives that are -in your opinion- are the best?? I know there are allot out there, but i would rather go by someones personal recommendation.

Back later...........
  Chaz

[sommersed]

A couple of months ago, while in the middle of the Mojave Preserve in Calif I blew the air hose leading directly into the dash air pressure gauge.  That little hole, from where I was sitting sounded like a Jet plane to me.  Finally got to it from the front of my MC5A.

Ed

[roadrunnertex]

Just a thought on my part?
Did you unplug the block heater before you cranked the engine?
I have always heard that you should unplug the block heater before you attempt to crank the engine.
As for the noise you heard I have not a clue so I am not even going to guess so I won't send you on a wild chase with you engine problem?
Keep us posted.
jlv

[gumpy]

So, what's the temperature there this morning? 

It sounds like you dind't have any air in the system, which is why the engine wouldn't shut down. (I'm assuming GMCs use an air cyclinder to shut down the engine, like MCIs do, so if not, correct me and I'll retract this.)

It's then possible that the noise you hear is the air compressor, and possibly the intake tube is detached from the air cleaner (you described it as a sucking sound)?

You should learn how you engine shuts fuel off normally, and how to operate it manually (which is probably what your buddy did).

Also sounds like your flapper is not fully activating and is allowing some air past. Even if you're sucking oil from blower seals, you still need air for it to burn.

Just my thoughts.

[Nick Badame Refrig/ACC]

Chaz,

I'll bet when you go to refire it, it may not start... Like Craig and Dallas said, Maybe the emergency shutdown didn't close.

And now when you restart it you'll find that you need to reset the locking device on the blower.

The sucking sound sounds like the massive air trying to suck past the shutdown.

Good Luck
Nick-

[Buffalo SpaceShip]

I vote for Craig's diagnosis.

Chaz, when you get a chance, take the big round boot off of the top of the blower and look down into it. You should be able to operate the flapper and check your blower screen for obstructions.

What your buddy did was turn off the fuel rack. It's the ONLY way to turn off the engine in a non-emergency situation. Since we have the same coach, I'm sending a pic of the lever you push DOWN to stop the fuel. Like Craig says, if you have no air, the stop cylinder (the round thing that pushes on the fuel rack lever) can't activiate and it won't shut down. Your compressor is likely leaking air downstream. Make sure that its discharge muffler valve (the one your SUPPOSED to drain every day) isn't in the open position. Could be all it was... If you can't find the lever, I can go out and snap another pic for you.

But now you probably also have blower seal(s) issues. It's not the end of the world and don't panic. It's best to fix these things when you're NOT on the road someplace, so it was a good place to be stranded, eh? You've got friends here that can help you out. Take a deep breath... and relax.

Brian B.

[TomC]

Chaz- While your bus and your Detroit engine seem complicated, actually they aren't.  The first indication was that you didn't know how to shut down the engine without using the emergency shut down.  Hopefully now you know of the governor shut off lever that you can just push with your finger to stop-especially helpful if the air/electrically operated dash switch fails to kill the engine.  Also, the dash controlled engine kill may take over 50psi in the air system to activate.  Please get educated about your bus, with books, someone teaching you at the bus, or such.  I work at a Freightliner dealer and periodically have to go out to the service dept (I work up front in new truck sales) with a sticks and staples motorhome to help a mechanic try to figure out some of the electrical system that the owner knows nothing about.  Even if you don't want to work on the bus, being educated about its' operation will keep you from getting gouged from some shade tree mechanic.  I'm not trying to belittle or critisize you, all bus conversion owners should take the time to get to know their bus so at least they can recognize what the problem is so not to drive it when a safety issue may be at stake.

Now to me it sounds like you blew the high air pressure line to the air solenoid that operates the shut down on the governor.  Now that you know how to shut it down by pushing on the governor lever, you can try starting it again.  Although, there might have been a chance that you blew the blower seals, if you had the older designe seals.  If your blower has been rebuilt in the last 10 years, then the only seals they now use are the turbo seals, which won't be sucked out with the emergency shut down flapper valve.  Start the engine from the back, and if you see alot of abnormal blue smoke, quickly shut it down before it starts taking off on its' own-this usually means you've blown the blower seals.  If the engine sounds the same without the blue smoke, you're probably OK.  After you look and listen more, let us know in better detail where that air is coming from and I bet it'll be something you'll be able to fix!  Good Luck, TomC

[Chaz]

Ok guys, I'm back. It was a good thing I had the blacksmith meeting here today. One of them was a mechanic. He helped me out. (Damn good guy!)

It wasn't the end of the world......... as I suspected.  It was a pressure relief valve. It seems as tho there is an ice blockage in an airline. Actually, we think it may be in that first thing the air runs into (rookie, I know) or somewhere inline close to the compressor. He said to break the line one connection away from the compressor (about 2' of hose away) and put several ounces of airline anti-freeze in it and then fire it again. It may have what it takes to warm it up  and break the ice blockage. I think I will do this tomorrow as it's suppossed to be up closer to 50 degrees. 

I know I need to learn more about it Tom, but I'm sorry, books don't make it. That is the biggest reason I want to make one or two or a hundred of these rally's to hang out with you guys and learn. Maybe I am putting the cart in front of the horse, but............. I have even tried to find someone to help educate me a little on the engine, but no luck. I am having my rack run in a week or so maybe that guy will be kind enough to school me in what I need to know to get by. I didn't even know it took air to shut down the motor. I'm SERIOUSLY thinking about changing that if it can be done and a good idea.
 
  By the way, we refired the motor and everything seems fine. Good old white smoke!

  Thanx for the pic Brian!!!!!!! That is what I have. I now know what that thing is for. I don't know if I have blower seals isssue or not. What does it do if I do??   (btw, breathing is good, but with this meeting and my bus sitting in front of my studio taking up ALLOT of room, and all the stresses of putting this thing on, I was really down. Sorry.)

  Well, I have to clean up now. I furnish the chili (20# of hamburger) and allot of other stuff, so i got some straightening up to do. Sorry to bother you guys (I HATE to do that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).
PLEEEEEESE let me know if there is ANYTHING else I need to do to winterize it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why I was asking in that earlier thread. I got the radiator and house water taken care of , but what else is there???

  Thanx agin folks. Sorry to be a pest.
       Chaz

[Buffalo SpaceShip]

Chaz, if you have ice, then you must not have the alcohol bottle filled up... or it's not working. Make sure you drain the discharge muffler every time you shut off the engine. It's on the right side of the engine, coming out of the compressor into this corrugated pipe. There's a valve on there that you open up so water and oil can escape. In fact, there's no harm in leaving the valve open to dry out the entire line this winter. Just be sure and close it once you're ready to fire it up again.

I can appreciate you not being a "book learner", but having to rely upon others, and scrouging to find an "expert" on a 30 year-old coach seems like you'll be destined to have more issues like you did today... and feel frustrated and powerless when something goes wrong. These old busses are not complicated, and can be quite reliable, given the proper amount of ongoing preventative maintenence. Avail yourself of every opportunity to learn, and you'll be able to help yourself out next time.

Drawing the line in the sand and saying "books don't cut it," is IMHO setting yourself up to have more problems down the road. Sometimes Da Book is all you got... like maybe when you're on the side of the road and the nearest friendly busnut is an on an unavailable Internet connection, 800 miles away. Immerse yourself in Da Book, read it on the pooper, whatever... and then go out and get yourself totally greasy and grimy on, around and underneath the thing. You and your bus will be better for it.

Just some advice,
Brian B.

[JimC]

Chaz,
Now that you know that it takes air in your system to shut down the coach, give serious consideration to airing up your bus with a shop compressor prior to starting it.

I wanted to shut mine down once prior to the air building up and couldn't do it. The next day I went out and bought a small 120V air compressor to stay on the bus. I plumbed it into the air lines and ALWAYS bring up the air pressure prior to starting the bus.

The compressor also helps when you are in a campground (or the smoke and noise is headed right toward your cranky neighbors house) and you don't want to spend the 10-15 minutes building air so you can fill your air bags prior to driving away.

On your winterizing, did you take the brass cap off of the valve on your toilet when you drained the water? if not, do so ( if its not too late ) or you will be replacing that valve in the spring, and don't ask me how I know that!

JimCallaghan 4106
Wisconsin

[captain ron]

Chaz, the sound you heard could also be the compressor. I had a funny noise like that on my old 4905 when in extreme cold. Ice would block a valve in the engine compartment and make a hell of a racket. after warming up it would quit. also your alternator will make a racket whining sound when extremely cold

[boogiethecat]

I wonder if discharging a CO2 fire extinguisher in a controlled fashion into the intake would shut down a diesel... seems to me it'd be a neat trick although I havn't tried it....
maybe a second good reason to have one of those around....

[TomC]

Chaz- glad to here you've figured it out.  And I also agree that looking and asking questions is the best way.  It's mostly the way I learned.  Amazing what can be learned just by observing.  Good Luck, TomC