Series 60 in a 05 Eagle

[Seville]

Hey Folks,
I have a chance to buy a 1973 model 05 Eagle entertainer coach. The coach looks great and has been well maintained.
I would like to put a Series 60 and a B500 trans in it.
It currently has an 8V71 with a manual transmission.

I have two questions.
How much would a remanufactured series 60 and B500 trans cost, roughly ?
Is this even possible to put this power plant in a 1973 model 05 Eagle ?

I have a very good mechanic who would be helping me do the work.

What do you all think ?

[luvrbus]

Lot of work but tons of 05 and 10 Eagles have a series 60 and different transmissions not many with the B500 though, check out Eric Browns on www.eaglesinternational.net in the project section also Ed Brenner is just staring a 60 series implant with the 4000 Allison in a 05 he is on the same site

good luck

[Seville]

Thank You for the quick reply Cifford!  I was hoping you would chime in.
What transmission would you recomend ?

[Seayfam]

Out of curiosity, how long is the Allison 4000 tranny? Is it much shorter if any than the 740?

Sent from my GT-I9300

[luvrbus]

Gary,the 4000mh is 3 and1/2 inch shorter than a 740 either will work in a Eagle with a 60 series gearing is the problem on a Eagle with a drop box folks like Jim use the auto shift 10 or 12 speeds to over come that problem then some use a 4:11 with the B500 or 4000 MH and a 3:33 rear gear with the 740 

Then we have a few like Sonnie and Wayne that change a Eagle over to a tag and use what ever gear they need or some use a 747 Allison it is short BTW with out the drop box and can use any gear also

[rv_safetyman]

Changing to a 4 stroke is a big challenge.  Others have touched on gearing.  For most four strokes, you will need to plumb a charge air cooler, fabricate all the tons of plumbing (air intake, cooling water, turbo to CAC plumbing and exhaust).  You will also need to make/have made the cables to the electronic stuff in the driver's area.  Lastly, the big issue with the Series 60 (and other big 4 strokes is that they are tall and you need to fabricate a raised bed area.

Smaller 4 strokes (most popular is the Cummins M11/ISM can be installed without the bed raise.

I have quite a bit of documentation in my project pages (see signature).  I also wrote a 3 part series in BCM a couple of years ago.

Jim

[Geoff]

So, Jim, was the engine swap in your bus worth the trouble and expense? 

--Geoff

[B_K]

So, Jim, was the engine swap in your bus worth the trouble and expense? 

--Geoff

Which time?

Sorry the debil made me do it!
  BK 

[robertglines1]

Bad B-K! It sure is impressive set up that Jim did and his write up helped me allot in my set up with Autoshift. Thanks again Jim!  Bob

[rv_safetyman]

Geoff, depends on who you ask .  Simple answer is Yes.  Clifford gives me a hard time about my fuel saving calculations that don't offset the need to buy a second Series 60 .

As you recall, you helped me a lot to get my 6V92 up to 350HP specs.  Then I took it in to have it smog tested (required dyno test in the Denver area) and on the way home the water temp. was well within limit one second and then huge amounts of white smoke the next second.  Pretty sure the emission folks did not set up a fan on the radiator and overheated the engine and that resulted in a cracked head.

When the engine failed, I did a lot of thinking.  I could have lived with the 350 HP but it would have been very marginal in our mountains and I had planned to tow some big vehicles (largest was my service truck at 9000).  But for the cost of having the engine rebuilt (estimated $8K which might have been low), I purchased a Series 60 and Eaton AutoShift.  I had to add maybe $2-4K more in parts and endless hours to get everything bolted together.  Did all the work myself.  

If I had had to pay $40K to have someone do it, the answer would surely be different.

Unfortunately I was stupid enough to believe that all Series 60 engines are million mile engines (this from a person who had to deal with a lot of statistics in my career ).  I got about 60K miles out of first engine (about 700K miles total as I recall) and then had cylinder sleeve sinking problems.  My second engine is fantastic and the bus drives like a dream.  Hardly knows what hills are.

In my engine conversion article for BCM I estimated my fuel savings as follows:

The only factual data I can present is my own situation.  Our bus and toad weigh over 46K pounds (large toad).  I have driven the coach over 52K miles and have averaged 7.7 MPG as measured by the SilverLeaf (directly off the engine ECM).  I did not have any experience with the bus at this weight with the 6V92, but my best guess is that I would have gotten less than 6 MPG (remember we travel over the mountains a lot and weigh more than many buses).  If the 6 MPG is close to being correct, my mileage improvement is close to  30%.  Over the 52K + miles, I have used  about 6,800 gallons.  If I had used 30% more fuel that would have been an extra 2,000 gallons.  Even at a conservative $2.50 per gallon, that would amount to a $5000 savings.  

I felt pretty good that the fuel savings had "offset" part of the cost of the conversion -- until Clifford made the unkind observation

Jim

[rv_safetyman]

OK, while I was typing my minutiae filled post, BK had to rub it in.  Now I have to get another hex doll to put pins in

Bob, thanks for the kind words.

Jim

[luvrbus]

I was at Coles place today his son is installing a MBE 4000 in his Eagle has a DDEC Vl system and they were changing that to a lV for emissions  

He said the reason he was doing the MBE 4000 was  because everyone has a series 60,Cummins or Cat he just wanted to be different   and the price was right dad gave it to him from a wreck Freightliner so out came the factory installed M-11

Sorry Jim that was cruel on my part

[Seville]

Very interesting input. Thanks guys! From what I gather, it would be a lot of work but worth it if done right and hopefully within a reasonable budget. I am going to investigate further and see if it's an option.

This coach is in absolutely wonderful condition inside and out, with a powerful drivetrain it would be a real stunner.

[B_K]

Jim I'm sorry I really shouldn't have done it!

Like I said the debil made me do it.
  BK 

[TomC]

There is no doubt that the pre 2002 Series 60 is an excellent engine (pre EGR). The S60 is also a physically very large engine. Even though I'm a Detroit fan, I would probably use a Cummins M11/ISM that can be turned up to 500hp for RV use. It is smaller physically, 600lbs lighter, and hundreds, if not thousands of trash trucks and buses used them with the Allison HD4060 behind it. Granted the engine will be of lower horsepower, but installing a "new" engine in the bus, have it rebuilt up to the RV rating. Another engine to consider is the Caterpillar C12. Up to 470hp and 1650lb/ft torque. About the same size as the ISM.
If you can, look at the size difference in the bus of a Series 60 and the Cummins ISM-you'll see what I'm talking about. Good Luck, TomC